ON one of the other threads, where it was asked about cooling barrels, one of our other members mentioned about having a rim fire.

With respect to him, I have both a couple of very accurate rim fires, in 22 LR and 17 HMR. However when I am out shooting rats, or ground squirrels, I leave them at home.

Hit one with a rimfire, and they just fall over. Unless you do like I do with a rim fire and go for a head shot, so they flop around like a fish out of water.

I don't consider myself blood thirsty or anything, but somehow for rats, just exploding them is more justifiable to me.

I'd rather take 200 rats in an afternoon with a 223 and a hollow point, than 500 rats with a rimfire anyday.

So do you prefer to just shoot them,, or explode them?

I've always used a .22 Rimfire for the sage rats, and saved the Cf for the bigger critters. Most of the sage rat areas I hunt, you can easily go through a brick of ammo without moving much and the targets are usually close- within 100 yards or so.
I've also found that the Power Point ammo will blow chunks off of unsuspecting sagerats and put them down pretty good with a good hit. Not quite as entertaining as the launch a centerfire does, but works just fine for a lot less money. Even shooting a .223, it can get pretty expensive spending a day shooting rats with a centerfire.

Of course, when it comes to rock chucks, gray diggers, crows, coyotes,and other pesky vermin the centerfires rule!- Sheister

Seafire,
'Sage rats' are Belding ground squirrels, correct? About half the size of prairie dogs?

I've never shot that type of varmint, but I would have expected a .17HMR with V-Max bullets to do a good job of mangling them.

George

What type of terrain/surroundings do you find sage rats in?

How bout chucks?

I'm gonna sound like John Kerry here but I vote both ways. We have Richardsons ground squirrels and the rimfire guys will indeed shoot 500 on occasional good day. So ya gotta have a rimfire, but my heart is with seafire in that I like drama! Answer, take a battery!
Our rat hunts involve (as a rule) a .22 rimfire handgun for the ones climbing up your ankles (I have a Ruger Goverment Model with a Volquartsen trigger and Bowen small game sight) a rimfire rifle for heavy concentrations out to 150 yards or so (since aquiring a CZ .17HMR my .22's and .22Mag stay home a lot) and several dedicated rat rifles (my favorites of late have been a .17 Mach IV and a Tactical .20). Like the one armed deputy said as he loaded his third revolver in the movie Unforgiven " I just don't want to get killed for wont of shootin back!!"

theres nothing like hitting the switch on a 7mm sending a mighty V-max at worp speed then trying to find the peices that are left.

Matt,

In alfalfa fields, and some fields bordering them.

seafire

Scheister,

As a handloader and using those Blue Dot loads,, my cost for a 223 load is less than the cost of a 22 Mag or a 17 HRM.

a 46 grain Win HP is 6cents each
primer is 1.5 cents each
powder is 2.9 cents per round.

$5.75 for 50 rounds.

The difference in explosion is the cost of admission for a fun time I guess.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

seafire, And then when you're done, you got to scrounge around and find brass to take home, tumble, resize and reload!! Sometimes it's just fun to shoot!!!!!! As far as explosions and costs go: Vmaxs=15 cents, Fed 210Matches=2.2cents, Powder(Reloader versions......free if you know the right person!!!!) 6mm or 25-06 explosions......spectacular!!! Who gives a FRA about cost? Do golfers complain about costs of their hobby? NO they just pay to play!!! Same as us!!! GHD

Seafire/B17G: I had to debate this a few days before I answered your inquiry/poll! I finally decided to go with the Rimfire selection. To tell the truth I would rather turn the little Varmints into mist with my centerfire Varminters BUT the costs involved and a few other reasons keep me from doing so (with the rare exception of course).

I think reason number one (highest priority) keeping me from using centerfires for my Ground Squirrel Hunting is ammo costs. I lost track last year but the year before I shot 4,000 rounds of Federal American Eagle 22 L.R. Hollowpoints at the Gophers! That ammo cost me about $85.00! 4,000 centerfires would have cost me about $640.00 AND then add the cost of a new barrel and chambering job for that amount of shooting ($350.00+) and we are looking at a $1,000.00 bill!

Next on my reasons for not using the centerfires is the safety - ricochet factor. Granted the centerfire bullets I would and do use on Ground Squirrels are very frangible but I often am granted the permission to shoot in fields that are full of farm equipment, pump houses, irrigation pivots, irrigation lines and such. I can judge the direction and carry distance of my rimfire ammo after it hits or misses a Ground Squirrel. I just feel better shooting the quieter Rimfire ammo in several ways. One concern I have with the centerfires is if I ever have an accidental discharge and the Rifle is pointed in a near horizontal position the bullet has more of a chance of getting back to civilization than the 22 L.R.'s. At least where I Hunt anyway.

Now for the added time I would need to spend reloading those centerfires for Ground Squirrels and add that to the ammo I already make for my Varminters to be used on Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs, Coyotes, Fox's and on and on - it would just double or maybe triple my already long hours of centerfire ammo prep! Yuck!

Let me add this! I have also been using the 17 HMR in the last 13 months for Ground Squirrels and other Varmints. I would estimate this year and last I have fired 700 to 900 17 HMR rounds at the Ground Squirrels. The results are often quite spectacular with flying straight up Gophers and flipping through the air Gophers often the result of a hit! Using the Rimfires also allows me to see my own bullet impacts - whether it was a hit or miss on my own. The centerfires often take a spotter to accurately call the shots.

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Reloading does bring the cost down to 22rfm and 17hrm range. Personaly I find blowing them apart to be really fun. My 223s work well for this out to 300 or so but what really shines are the 243s and the 25-06 they blow them up no matter how far away you wack them.

But then you have to throw in the 22-250 well just way to many choices. To make the varmits join the red mist club. Any way I look at it it just plain fun watching them fly.

P dog shooter: I did some quick figgering here to further analyze/compare costs. Yes the recent price I paid for Remington 17 HMR ammo was $7.95 for 50 or 15.9 cents a shot! Then I refiggered my prior quickly figgered centerfire reload cost estimate and I came to this formula/answer - 10 cents for the bullet, 2 cents for the Federal 205M primer and 2 cents for the extrapolated lifetime cost of the brass and then 6 cents per round for the average powder loading for a total of 20 cents a round! And if I fired 4,000 of those 20 cents a round reloads that would cost me $800.00 for that years centerfiring ammo alone costs! Compare that to the $85.00 cost for the 22 L.R. ammo (and no worry about the barrel replacement costs) as to $1,150.00 total expense for the centerfire (including barrel replacement)!
Why heck the difference equals the cost of a first rate Varmint Rifle and scope every year I would be sending downrange by using a centerfire for my Gophering! I would rather get the new Varminter and scope each year and use the rimfires! The Federals 22 L.R.'s I now use are 1.6 cents each!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,

I was thinking about this while I was out in the garage handloading some more 223 rounds.

NOT figuring in the cost of the brass, and using non premium bullets ( but other bullets that work fine), I came up with the following:

45 grain Winchester HP: .0675 cents a piece. $67.50 /1,000
55 gr SP Winchester: 5 cents a piece. $25.00/1,000
55 gr Winchester FMJ: $33.00/1000

Rem 6 1/2 primers: 1.5 cents each $15.50/1000

Powder:
Blue Dot $71.50 / per 5 lbs. ( $14.30/lb)
IMR 4198 : $110.00 / per 8 lbs.( $13.75 /lb)

On Blue Dot: 14.5 grains/ 46 grain Win HP
ON IMR 4198: 21.5 grains/ 55 grain Win SP
or/ 55 grains Win FMJ

7,000 grains per pound:
Blue Dot: $0.028 per round
4198: $0.021 per round

Cost per round:

Blue Dot, 46 grain HP: velocity 3200 fps
Powder: .028 cents
Bullet: .0675
Primer: .0155
Total: 11.1 cent per round/ $5.55 per 50/ $11.10 per 100

4198, 55 grain SP bullet: velocity 3150 fps.
Powder: 0.021 cents
Bullet: 0.05 Cents
Primer: 0.0155 cents
Total: 8.65 cents per round/ $4.32 per 50/ $8.65 per 100

4198, 55 grain FMJ. Velocity: 3150 fps
Powder: 0.021 cents
Bullet: 0.035 cents
Primer: 0.0155 cents
Total.: 7.15cents per round/ $3.57 per 50/ $7.15 per 100

So as can be seen, a 223 can be economical if one can get past the stigma of the Blue Blood Bullets ( I love them as much as the next guy, but I love to shoot a lot even more)
and go with Blue Collar Bullets.

IN my 4 Rugers, my 2 Remington, my Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. The above bullets are as accurate ( minute of ground squirrel) as the better bullets. And the on game performance is every bit as fun making the red mist occur.

Some can question the FMJ use, but I always ask the persons land I am shooting on. Of the property I shoot now, I have a hillside close by and also there are no cattle to worry about. So he is fine me using those rounds.

If anyone is also into a 22/250 and can live with a velocity of 3400 fps with a 55 grain SP:

Powder: 25 grains Of IMR 4198

Powder: 0.0491 cent per round
Bullet: 0.05 cents per round
Primer: 0.0155 cents per round

Total: 11.46 cents a round.

This is not including the cost of the brass, only reload cost of the componets. All of my brass is already used before. It does not stay new load, but gets tumbled for 8 hours after it is shot, so the reloads look newer.

All of these have proven highly accurate for me. I average 80 % hits once I get out there and into the groove. The rifles are capable of more.

While rotating rifles, and not heating them up, I can expect a decent barrel life.

This is not put forth to dispute anyone, or hassle their choices. It is just put forth as a cost comparison. But between the red mist stigma and the cost, vs the 17 HRM or 22 mag, one can see which rifles I take along. Use to love the 22 mag a lot. However, I somehow never got into the 10/22 craze like others did, although I own 2 fairly nice ones. I am just saving them for my son, when he gets a little older.

But it is all fun anyway, right??

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Seafire: I appreciate your cost analysis there and agree with it! Maybe I will look into trimming the costs on one of my 222's or one of my 223's. And I always have the two 221 Fireballs that are so accurate. Maybe I am just worried about spending more time at my loading bench?
Thanks for the ideas though.
Yes its the way one can have the most fun that counts!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

V.G.



Time at the reloading bench is just a prospective to us all I guess.



When I am at mine, my wife thinks I am busy and does NOT create a big " honey do" list for me. If I watch TV she does.



I put a radio out in the garage, actually a 35 year old stereo system that I had in college . I leave it set to a local station that plays a lot of blue grass and old western music. It stays on 24 hours a day.



So the time at the reload bench passes by easily and actually has become a refuge.



Maybe that is why I have so much time on my hands to come up with all of these Blue Dot loads on the reloading forum. LoL.



Now all I need to do is put a TV and VCR out there, and load to my hearts content.



Cheers and good shooting

seafire

Maybe Iam spoiled I have some very good friends with ffls(I get every thing at costs) I buy and use surplus powder. I know my costs are below 22mag. Can't beat the price of 22lr. But then one dosen't wack varmits out to 300 plus with one.

If one has to buy through the local gun shop ones costs can sky rocket. If one buys bulk through the mail you can keep it down.

It is all fun I shoot thousands of round so 22lr a year plus all my center fire.

While out last Friday, after Clark from this forum came down to So Oregon and we went out shooting sage rats, I thought about posing this question.

After shooting a batch of the little rodents with a hollow point in a 223, I had some 22/250 slugs loaded up with a 55 gr FMJ and shot a few of them with that. Velocity was at a mild 3400 fps.

NO flips in the air, nothing dramatic at all. So I walked in the field and took a look at the remains. Small bullet hole on one side and then a fair amount of internal organs hanging somewhat out the other side.

However all around them were the ones shot with a hollow point. They were fractional sage rat parts all over the place, slatterings of just organ parts here and there, no telling where they had actually come from.

Some looked like what was left of one after it had been ran over by a truck and had been on the highway for a week or so, with a million other trucks to run over them.

As the grass is getting higher now, with a FMJ you really can't tell if you hit them or not. With a HOLLOW POINT, they explode and send body parts flying all over the place.

Since they are rats, I have to say, the hollowpoints give a much better show, and are much more likely to instantly kill on a bad shot than the FMJ.

The hollowpoints also makes it much easier eating for the crows and seagulls here in Oregon. ( What are Seagulls doing that far inland??)

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

pic of rats [gnd sqrls] shot with 17HMR at 30 yards

The 22 rim fire made smaller 1" holes, and the .223 60 gr SP 13 gr Blue Dot made bigger holes.

Clark,

Some of those that I shot with a 46 grain HP( Winchester) out of a 223, well take those in your picture, run them thru a meat grinder, and then take the picture again.

Interesting angle taking the glove there next to them as a point of reference for size.

Cheers and thanks for coming down
seafire

I love it when I shoot groundhogs or wood chucks with my 220 Swift and a 52 grain hpbtl bullet at 3900fps. It will part a groundhogs head cleanly down the center. Or if one wont stand and has its back to me it succeds in completly gutting them.