I am going to create a stable of PD rifles, and one of the calibers I am looking at is James Calhoon's .19 Badger. My primary focus right now is for QUIET, 200-yard rifles (also probably getting a .17 Fireball and .204 Ruger) for use on PDs at <200-yards, so they don't get spooked.

Anyone have any experience w/ this caliber and can comment on the noise level, accuracy, wind-bucking ability, and bore dirtiness? And what powders do you recommend?

I am cross-posting this message in several gun sites as I don't think it's a popular round.

If you are aware of the 19 Badger, you probably know about James Calhoon's website.

I see you're am VHA member so that's good.

Todd Kindler has two different reloading manuals for the 17 and 20 cals.

For the last two weeks there has been one of his CZ's in 19 Badger on GunBroker.

You might also want to look at the Cooper's.
17 squirrel,
17 ackley hornet
17 ackley bee or hebee
17 fireball
20 ackley hornet
20 vartarg.

Lil gun, Reloader 10X, H4198, RL-7, 2015 BR come to mind as powders. The newer reloading manuals have 17 and 20 cal load data.
Hogdon has an annual publication. Lots of online reload data.
6MM Br website has data.
Any loads that are not subsonic or suppressed are going to make noise.
The more powder, generally, the louder the report.

Best
GWB

A .204 at under 200 yards would not be very quiet from my experience of shooting one. Almost every high velocity center fire rifle is going to be loud and if QUIET is the design of the day, I would look to a suppressor if legal in your state.

Even a suppressor on a high velocity rifle is not going to be Hollywood quiet due to the velocity. My suppressors on a .223 will reduce the sound tremendously but there is no question that a rifle has been fired.

Perhaps a caliber that could be loaded subsonic would fit the bill and that would be generally around 1150 fps.

Good luck

I heard my first .204 this year at the range. The shooter was under the benchrest roof and I was amazed at how quiet the round was compared even the only slightly bigger .223. It was certainly quieter than my 22/250.

Well, aside from being a bit of an oddball cartridge, it will work, but at what cost?

I was dead against the .204 Ruger when it came out. Then I began building Savage Precision Target Actions into varmint rifles. I decided to try a .204 Ruger Barrel, if it didn't work all I'd be out is the cost of a barrel. I was converted with the first few groups and after the first squirrel hunt I became a fan.

Here's my opinion. You'll need a .204 Ruger that has at least a 1:8.5" twist or faster, this means custom barrel. The factory 1:12" twist is way too slow and gives problems with some 40 grain bullets. That's why I like Savage actions, I can swap barrels in minutes.

I found the 26 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade shoots in the .2's and .3's at 100 yards with the 1:8.5" twist (4,110 fps) and the Berger 50 grain .204 HPBT will shoot in the .3's (3,250 fps) with handloads. The 55 grain Bergers need a 1:8" twist or faster. That 50 grain Berger is one slick little bullet with a high B.C. for .204 caliber. I use two barrels, a 24" Shilen Select Match Savage Varmint contour in 1:12" twist and a 24" Pac-Nor Super-Match Savage Varmint Contour 1:8.5" twist barrel. Reloader 10x works best with the lighter bullets 26 to 40 grains and Varget with the 50 or 55 grain Bergers. I use Federal 205M and Remington 7-1/2 BR Primers in Winchester cases.

The advantages are: There are plenty of available bullets including lead free and Winchester makes good inexpensive brass, as does Remington. Nosler and Hornady cost double. There is no case forming. Tools and accessories are available as standard equipment.

If you use a muzzle brake, yes I know it sounds strange, you will see every impact, even without it you can see most hits. This cartridge is the first I was able to see the impact on a squirrel with a high magnification scope - it was amazing. There is a little shock wave that propagates off the squirrel as it splats - cool!

For real long range, I use the .243 WSSM with Barnes 62 grain Varmint Grenades at 3,580 fps in a 1:8" Brux barrel. The squirrels evaporate into a pink froth that leaves few if any chunks behind. However the muzzle blast sounds like a nearby lightening strike. Bullet impact sounds like a cherry bomb - cool!

Good luck and bountiful hunting.

For PD's under 200 yds I think the .17 ackley Hornet would be hard to beat.
A friend has one and it's very cheap to shoot, he uses 10.0-12.0 grains of powder.

Hal

for that range there isn't any moss growing on the 22 k hornet

I had this same dilema for my rabbit hunting here in NZ. There has been an explosion in the numbers the last few years and a 100 animals on an outing is not uncommon. Depending on where I go I have them from under my feet out to 350yds or more. I have tried 12G, 22LR, 22Mag, A friend had a 22 Hornet a 17HMR and a 223, and none of them showed the versatility needed for all situations.
I bought an XR 100 in 204 with the intention of building a 20VarTarg. I used the Rem barrel shortened by enough to remove the freebore on the 204 chambering and ended up with a 25in barrel. That has been the answer as with two loadings it covers everything. A 34gn Nosler shots (very cheap @ under 1/2 the cost of the bergers) at 2750 over 9gn Blue Dot for everything out to about 200yds and a 35gn Berger at 3735 over 19.2gn H4198 for the long ones.
The areas I shoot are either inside 200 or over so that dictates what ammo I carry and which of the two scope settings I use.
Admittedly I have a very effective sound supressor but the close range load is still markedly quieter, about in the 22 mag range and I often get multiple shots on a "mob" of bunnies with the quieter 2750fps load where the 3735fps load may only net the one shot.
Loaded 300 rounds yesterday and will go back to "the patch" in next week or two.

Von Gruff.

Hal H et al,

I have considered the 17 AH as one of my rifles, but that means forming the brass. I have no problem doing it (from a philosophical standpoint), but have not done it before and don't know what is involved or what special dies I would need. I am also frugal w/ my components and won't be happy if I ruin brass during the process.

Can you offer any advice on the process?

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
I had this same dilema for my rabbit hunting here in NZ. There has been an explosion in the numbers the last few years and a 100 animals on an outing is not uncommon.
Von Gruff.

Sounds like you need more cats or coyotes on your island.

I shoot the badger 19 and really enjoy it. It is right there with my dtech ar 223 as far as favorite gun. It is light, small and smooth. I can see my hits. It is not as loud as the 223. It shoots really flat and the recoil very low. The tuned trigger is very light and can be made even lighter with the set trigger. I did a 10 shot group at 100yrds that were covered by a dime. The gun is more accurate than I am. I can shoot all day without bad fouling and it cleans up easy. I shoot the 32 grain bullets with AA 2200 loaded to Calhoons max specs. I got enough brass and bullets to last the life of the gun. The only thing that would be better was if it was an ar or could be made into an ar upper to fit my lower. I would buy the gun in a heart beat and it is always with me on my sage rat hunts. The double hollow point bullets are just a step below a VMax in explosiveness but still very good.

Hope this helps
Floyd

quote:

For real long range, I use the .243 WSSM with Barnes 62 grain Varmint Grenades at 3,580 fps in a 1:8" Brux barrel. The squirrels evaporate into a pink froth that leaves few if any chunks behind. However the muzzle blast sounds like a nearby lightening strike. Bullet impact sounds like a cherry bomb - cool!

.243 WSSM's rule!!

Great post!!!!!!!!!!!

I start in the spring using the 17 HM2 and 17 HMR rifles for shooting prairie dog pups. Then switch to the 17 and 221 Fireball rifles which are a step above the muzzle blast of a 22 Hornet. I start using the Fireball rifles when the prairie dogs start to get muzzle blast smart. I looked at the .19 Badger web site but its unlikely that I get one because its to close to the 204 Ruger and 17 Fireball.

The .19 Badger is a wildcat based on the .30 carbine case. Nifty little round that is quite similar the more popular .20 VarTarg based on the .221 case. Calhoon sells brass for the .19 as well as loaded ammo which is good cause any time you form a .30 caliber parent case to something as small as a .19 it's labor intensive. Not necessarily a bad thing if you enjoy such endeavors. The .20 VarTarg is one of the easiest of wildcats to form cases for. My only concern on the .19 Calhoon is what ever happens for bullets if James Calhoon retires?
For that reason alone as well as case forming I prefer the VarTarg. Plus which the .20 VarTarg is a well known wildcat and dies and such can be ordered easily from a number of sources.



Here's a few other wildcats for comparison.




Left to right: .17 Killer Bee, .20 Killer Bee, .17 MachIV, .20 VarTarg.

Jim Calhoon's web site will show loading data.
It's no dirtier that any other round, it'll depend on powders. Jim makes a good bullet but the BC would be in favor of the .20 V-Max or other polymer tipped bullet so probably a small advantage for the .20 VarTarg.
As to your 200 yard goal I wouldn't sell rounds in this class short. They are effective rat spreaders well past two hundred. I'd add a hundred+.
Personally I'm more fond of the .20 VarTarg but the Badger is neat in it's own right and the guys I know that have em like em. I don't think anything in any of those pictures would be much quieter than the next. As I'm sure you know the .17 MachIV is an older wildcat that is the ballistic twin of the Remington .17 Fireball.
Good idea on having a selection, it's wise to have a number of rat smackers in an active p-dog town unless your real patient watching rats frolic while your barrel cools or you like replacing burned out barrels frequently.
I will say that James makes an accurate rifle and he does magic on a CZ trigger.
Good luck with your choices.