Looking to buy a used Cooper either a M21 in 17 Mach IV or a M22 in 22-250. Don't know which one to go with. I have dies for the 22-250 and the 17 Mach IV comes with dies. Both rifles are used and priced about the same. I will be shooting PDs with which ever I buy.

Which one would you go with and why?

22 250.... far more versitale.

Elkslayer:
17MIV with the various 25gr pills is sure fun; 18.5gr of Benchmark=3850fps, and a trajectory like a laser for at least 250yds. Sure the wind may blow it around some, but the lack of recoil and seeing your shots is great.

Your question is tough one, considering the differences in the two cartridges...I suggest you buy them both.

22-250, better for longer ranges and holds up better in the wind.

The simple solution, buy both!

As mentioned the Mach IV is a boat load of fun. Out past 250 yds it gets a little iffy. But you can't beat watching the show.
And the 22-250 for varmints, no more need be said.

muck

Elkslayer, How far you wanta shoot the varmints with reasonable "hits/shots" results?? Out to 200-250-...maybe even 300, the 17MACH 4 will do the deal with neglible recoil(MAYBE THAT SHOULD READ, "NO RECOIL"!!) effects. The 22-250 if it will stabilize the 40 grainers or 50 grainers(and it should handle both well!) will give you a bunch more "red mist" than the 17. And then stretch it out to 400-500-600.??? The 22-250 can handle the call!!
If all I was looking for was 100- 200 yards, I wouldn't reload for it!!...Just get yourself a quality 17HMR and GOOD GLASS and do the deal!!! Going over that, the 17MIV will do the deal also!!....but it's got it's limitations!! .204 is a bad mama-jama!!! Handles pretty much what ever you want to target out to 400, no recoil, no inherrent reloading troubles......just dead varmints!! You can tke it even farther!!....I have!!! With SIERRA 39 grain BK, shots at 500 and witnessing the impact thru the scope is a done deal!!!! But if I had to choose between the 17Mach IV and a 22-250...i'd go with the 22-250!!! MORE VERSITILE than the little "outshines it's size" Mach IV!!
Now before y'all J.I.M.S......we're talking practicality here also!!!! 17MIV brass is not readily available at any of the shops I visit !!!(And yes I get in a few more shops than most of you!!!..being that I also am a rep for UNCLE BUD's bags!!!) and 22-250 brass is(or factory stuff) is available about everywhere!!!
Buy the 22-250 and don't look back!!! GHD

I've worked with the 17's and the 22's since the late 70's. Last year I sold my last 17 and will never look back.

For me, I would never take a 17 over a 22/250, there is nothing you can do with a 17 that you can't do better with a 22/250.

Just my humble opinion.....grins

Mark D

Following up what Mark D. said:

I want to get a 17 Mach IV barrel for my Savage 12 BVSS.... but that would be a barrel that would be to have something different at times...something to play with....

However, it would never supplement my 223s and 22.250s at all....I look at as a superior and probably cheaper to shoot alternative to the 17 HRM....

I have really tried to look at the 17 Bandwagon, and own 4 different 17 HRMs... but it just doesn't seem to happen for me... yeah they have their merits, but in ratio to the ammo costs.... they haven't sold me much....

I am not really a sort of follow the spendy trendy crowd kinda of guy... I went with the 17 HRM because I liked 22 Mags....But at this point the only 17 that really seems worthwhile to me is the 17 Mach IV.. beyond that.... NOthing....

So do yourself a favor... go with the 22.250.. you won't regret it, but I could see the average guy trading off the 17 Mach IV in a year or two...If the price was good enough for me to get the 17 and try it out for a year, with intention of selling it for what or close to what I paid for it.... then I'd go that route....

But it would be planned to have a one season service like in my possession....

good luck, either route...

cheers
seafire

I take a little different view than some of the other posters. If it wasn't for the case forming chores , I'd take the Mach IV in a second over the 250 for most PD shooting . I figure the 250 is sort of overkill for the little rodents at normal ranges and the miserly powder consumption , complete lack of recoil , and light muzzle blast would make the smaller 17 s much more enjoyable when you want to fire dozens or hundreds of shots in a day .

I looked real hard at building a Mach IV , but gestimated I could do about the same thing with moderate loads in a 17 Remington and not have to form cases and it has worked out nicely .

The case forming dies for the Mach IV are pretty spendy , so if you decide to go that route, I would make sure the forming dies come with the rifle as well as the normal loading dies .

Laupa is making 20 ppc, 20 tactical, 218 Fireball, and 20 Vartag for Dakota

550,000 pices of each.. 20 tactical is first, and then the rest within the year.

Then it would be just necking down the 20 VarTag, and you have the 17 Mach IV. Now you have the best brass you can buy.

BUT, wait, look at this article: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek061.html

Just neck you 223 down to 20 cal, and have fun!

quote:

I will be shooting PDs with which ever I buy.

Elkslayer

When you say Prairie Dogs one thing always comes to mind wind. The range of the 22-250 on a PD field is more than double that of a 17. I’d like to see anyone hit a PD in the wind at over 500 yards consistently with a .17. The 17 is a very fine gun but this isn’t where they shine. Inside 200 and limiting fur damage in little or no wind I’d go with the 17 in a heartbeat over the 22-250 but not in this case.

You just can't go wrong with a .22-250.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:

quote:

I will be shooting PDs with which ever I buy.

Elkslayer

When you say Prairie Dogs one thing always comes to mind wind. The range of the 22-250 on a PD field is more than double that of a 17. I’d like to see anyone hit a PD in the wind at over 500 yards consistently with a .17. The 17 is a very fine gun but this isn’t where they shine. Inside 200 and limiting fur damage in little or no wind I’d go with the 17 in a heartbeat over the 22-250 but not in this case.

I've never shot a prarie dog, Don't expect to any time soon either... But shooting G-hogs
in the PA hills I can say that past 250yards
I have less than ultimate confidence in ANY
22 caliber, this is why there is a place in the world for 6mm's and the 25-06.

400yds plus? send them an 87gr 25cal slug...
the further out the target is the bigger bullet you need to see the "splash" of impact clearly

Of course the guy who posts after me will recommend shooting PD's with a 416Barrett...

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
Laupa is making 20 ppc, 20 tactical, 218 Fireball, and 20 Vartag for Dakota

550,000 pices of each.. 20 tactical is first, and then the rest within the year.

Then it would be just necking down the 20 VarTag, and you have the 17 Mach IV. Now you have the best brass you can buy.

BUT, wait, look at this article: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek061.html

Just neck you 223 down to 20 cal, and have fun!

Or just buy a .204 Ruger.

I like "dinking" around with loads as much as the next guy (or maybe more!) but if you are going to do a lot of shooting, which is more fun?
Buying factory brass, loading it and shooting OR
screwing around with necking down .223 brass, loading it and then shooting.

If you are going to do a lot of SHOOTING, don't waste your time resizing brass for some wildcat that nearly duplicates the ballistics of a factory cartridge,
Buy the factory offering (especially when it's this good) and go kill something.

Elkslayer, to answer your ORIGINAL QUESTION
(which was NOT, “What is your favorite “new†wildcat?†or "What do you shoot varmints with?")

quote:

Originally posted by Elkslayer:
Looking to buy a used Cooper either a M21 in 17 Mach IV or a M22 in 22-250.
Don't know which one to go with.
I have dies for the 22-250 and the 17 Mach IV comes with dies. Both rifles are used and priced about the same. I will be shooting PDs with which ever I buy.
Which one would you go with and why?

22-250.

It will do everything ANY 17 will do and it has longer range. A much longer range.

Flippy sez:

quote:

22-250.
It will do everything ANY 17 will do and it has longer range. A much longer range

Now who's drifting outside the question? There are .17's that would perform in the PD field so similar to a 22-250 "which is better" would be moot.
The fun 17MIV doesn't have the boiler room to match a 22-250, but certainly has been used to convert scads of PD's into compost.
I own both, and know enough to not confuse their application.
I hope Elkslayer can find a way to own both!

Or.. 223AI

21" barrel 1-8 twist, 40grain at 4000fps, 50grain at 3750fps, and 75 grain A-max at 3100fps.

That should cover it.. the A-max has enough "Umph" to smack pdogs at 1000 yards if thats your thing.

And barrel life is far better then the 22-250!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
Or.. 223AI
21" barrel 1-8 twist, 40grain at 4000fps, 50grain at 3750fps, and 75 grain A-max at 3100fps.
That should cover it.. the A-max has enough "Umph" to smack pdogs at 1000 yards if thats your thing.

A 75gr Amax launched at 3100fps makes a great paper puncher (known ranges), but the rainbow trajectory would make field use a real challenge.
I would stick with a smokin' 50gr load, at applicable distances.

Elk Slayer,

Back to your question....................

I have to agree with ‘gunslinger, IF you live near pds or they are available relatively easily. On the other hand if you are able to hunt them only two or three times a year, I would pick the 22-250.

You very likely will have areas that are not shot as bad as some in the states north and east of you. In this case the longer range of the 22-250 is not needed. You shoot the close ones and then move.........

If I lived there (Wy/Mt area), most of my shooting would be from the pickup window, just driving around. My brother and I have each burned up a 22-250 just shooting from the window in virgin towns. The 17 would make an excellent “drive by†gun (if not too heavy). If the dogs are too far away, you get closer. If it is too windy you stay home and wait for a better day. Living in that area, you have the luxury of choosing the conditions (and very likely the range) you shoot in. I don’t.

Good luck. Let us know what you get and how it shoots.

Jim

Ok, I made a decision and the Cooper is on its way.

I went with the 17 Mach IV.

Reasons include:

Final negotiated price was much better than the 22-250.
The fun of learning/using a new cartridge.
I already have a Ruger tang-safety M77V 22-250 to use.
This way I can buy another should I not like the 17. (Sick logic)

Now, since the Mach IV comes with Wilson dies, I need to find an arbor reloading press,,,, anybody out there have one they want to get rid of?????

Elkslayer: is the 17MIV the one listed in AR classified last week? That was a nice package, pre-dinged wood and all.
Form dies come with it?

Mulerider, that's the one. Don't know about forming dies, if they don't Ill have to buy some. Will have to wait awhile as I spent all my jingle on the rifle. Hoping to find an arbor press for cheap, I know they can be boughten for around $100 but I really spent all my stash on the rifle.

I can send you 50 formed (unfired) brass if needed.
Let me know if interested.
gstasny@tconline.net

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Flippy sez:

quote:

22-250.
It will do everything ANY 17 will do and it has longer range. A much longer range

Now who's drifting outside the question? There are .17's that would perform in the PD field so similar to a 22-250 "which is better" would be moot.
The fun 17MIV doesn't have the boiler room to match a 22-250, but certainly has been used to convert scads of PD's into compost.
I own both, and know enough to not confuse their application.
I hope Elkslayer can find a way to own both!

Sorry Mulerider, I forgot about the 17-378WBY. My bad.
I would like to see the FACTORY 17 that will keep up with a 22-250 out to 500+ yards.

I agree with you about owning both (or two or three of each).

One can never have too many rifles...

Flippy said: "Sorry Mulerider, I forgot about the 17-378WBY. My bad.
I would like to see the FACTORY 17 that will keep up with a 22-250 out to 500+ yards."

My wife wins argumen....err, discussions all the time, by changing the details or topic. I concede..

A borrowed phrase:
"Always one gun short of enough"

Flippy

Load a 30 gr Kindler Gold (b.c. about 0.280) to 3900 fps and the factory .17 Remington will keep up with nearly any 250 load for trajectory AND wind drift .

Sure , the 250 will blast 'em further into the air , but it won't be any easier to hit with . And it'll burn more powder , heat barrels faster , be tougher on your ears , etc. , etc. Then , there is the new 25 gr V-max , with a reputed b.c. about 0.230 that will also even the playing field with the bigger guns. The sub-bores just keep on gittin a little better......

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Flippy said: "Sorry Mulerider, I forgot about the 17-378WBY. My bad.
I would like to see the FACTORY 17 that will keep up with a 22-250 out to 500+ yards."

My wife wins argumen....err, discussions all the time, by changing the details or topic. I concede..

A borrowed phrase:
"Always one gun short of enough"

The topic was whether to spend hard earned money (no lottery winnings were mentioned) on a 17 MachIV or a 22-250. A 22-250 will handle more bullet weights, and more types of shooting than ANY 17 caliber.
Mulerider, just in case your wife isn’t around to explain it to you: read V-E-R-S-A-T-I-L-I-T-Y.

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
Flippy
Load a 30 gr Kindler Gold (b.c. about 0.280) to 3900 fps and the factory .17 Remington will keep up with nearly any 250 load for trajectory AND wind drift .

Sure , the 250 will blast 'em further into the air , but it won't be any easier to hit with . And it'll burn more powder , heat barrels faster , be tougher on your ears , etc. , etc. Then , there is the new 25 gr V-max , with a reputed b.c. about 0.230 that will also even the playing field with the bigger guns. The sub-bores just keep on gittin a little better......

And while you CAN buy handmade Todd Kindler bullets to try and keep your 17 up to speed with nearly any 22-250 with PD’s or like sized varmints, try it on something bigger (coyotes?) at 400 or 500 yards.
No thank you.

Plus I can go down to my local gun store or Bi-Mart and buy bullets off the shelf that will do the job very nicely. And they can’t possibly cost as much as Kindler “Gold†bullets.
So much for your powder savings!

Like I said:

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
22-250.
It will do everything ANY 17 will do and it has longer range. A much longer range.

If you want less power you can load it down.
It still has MORE power at every distance than ANY 17.

Yes , Flippy , the Golds will cost a little more , but you ignored the 25 gr V-Max which is basically the same price as any common varmint bullet .

I already agreed the 250 has alot more juice , but it's not needed for the little sod poodles......if you want to go to wally-bi-mart and get your ammo , I sure wouldn't choose a 250 , the .223 rules there. But for the handloader , a sub bore does have some advantages.........

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
......if you want to go to wally-bi-mart and get your ammo , I sure wouldn't choose a 250 , the .223 rules there. But for the handloader , a sub bore does have some advantages.........

Ammo and bullets are two different things:

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
Plus I can go down to my local gun store or Bi-Mart and buy bullets off the shelf that will do the job very nicely.

No mention of Wally World either.
They don't sell reloading stuff around here anyway. Just ammo.

Elkslayer: I have been out on the west coast earning some "mad money" and did not get in on the original "fun" of this threads give and take!
Now that you have decided on the 17 MachIV as your new Rifle I want to congratulate you and wish you the best with it!
I have owned my full custom 17 MachIV since 1995 and have killed every imagineable type of Varmint with it!
I had my 17 MachIV built heavy and with a long Shilen stainless barrel.
You can literally watch the bullets impact on Varmints!
I have a SPLENDID load for you to try!
I get sensational accuracy with this load AND AMAZING lethality on all manner of Varmints from Ground Squirrels on up through Coyotes, Raccoons, Badger and large Rock Chucks!
The 17 MachIV may just be one of the top 5 Prairie Dog cartridges ever invented!
For a myriad of reasons! Not the least of which is the lack of recoil, inherent accuracy, slow barrel warming, amazing lethality, economical to load and pretty flat trajectory!
I have taken numerous Prairie Dogs with my 17 MachIV out at the 400 yard ranges!
I once killed 6 large mature Rock Chucks with 6 straight shots off of a large "rock island" in central Oregon! The notable part of this task was the range and the very large size of the Chucks I killed! The range was 320 lasered yards to the closest double chubby Chuck!
All of these mature Rock Chucks died instantly, in their tracks and never moved a muscle after bullet impact!
The load I was using then, and still use today, is:

Berger 25 grain MEF bullets in Remington 221 Fireball cases with Federal 205M primers and 19.0 grs. of W748!

Please double check this load and approach with caution. It is a mild load as I recall and only gives me 3,527 F.P.S. at the muzzle! It is SO accurate and lethal on Varmints that I won't change a thing with this loading.

Again best of luck and don't hesitate to try a Praire Dog (or two) way out there with your new 17 MachIV!
By the way my original "forming" loads with this Rifle were so accurate I took them afield "en masse" and used them to harvest Varmints with!


Long live the 17 MachIV!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Flippy: Some of the trade offs in a Prairie Dog Town with the 22-250 are greatly increased recoil (unable to spot hits and misses!) over the 17 MachIV, increased barrel heat (the 17 MachIV shoots much longer strings of shots til it needs to cool down!), noise factor, barrel life, economy (I use 19.0 grains of powder in my 17 MachIV and 35 to 39 grains of powder in some of my 22-250's!) and on and on!
I am not saying the wonderful 22-250 is a bad choice in the Prairie Dog Towns but the 17 MachIV has some distinct advantages over it - in my experience.
Long live the 22-250 as well!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, good to hear from you. I haven't heard anything about your snakebite in a while, how are you healing? (or healed?)

I know Elkslayers original question was this was going to be a PD rig. I also know most gun guys don't always stick to the original intended use for a particular gun. I can speak from experience on this.

I do not own a 17 MachIV (yet) but you have stated in many posts that it is one of your most accurate and most favorite varmint rigs for many of the reasons you just stated. However, you can load a 22-250 down to nearly "little gun levels" while still maintaining the ability to "reach out and touch something" with ample power.
Power never originally designed into or attainable with the MachIV.

If I had to choose one over the other it would be the 22-250.

But my 6mm will outshoot either and with nearly zero recoil.

Long live quarter bores!

(sorry for stealing your tagline, VarmintGuy)

Has any one tried the Hornady 20 or 25 gr 17 Cal V-MAX bullets in their 17-221 Fireball (17 Mach IV ) ? I have a 17 Rem. but am thinking about getting a 17 Mach IV for prairie dog shooting.

Tuck 2, I bet SDGunslinger has or knows somebody who has.

quote:

Originally posted by tuck 2:
Has any one tried the Hornady 20 or 25 gr 17 Cal V-MAX bullets in their 17-221 Fireball (17 Mach IV ) ? I have a 17 Rem. but am thinking about getting a 17 Mach IV for prairie dog shooting.

What would you like to know about the 17 VMax's?
The 20gr has been a poor shooter in my 17M4's, but excellent in my 17AH. Have just started to shoot the 25gr, so far only from one M4. Nice groups, and that is a long bullet for a 25gr. I don't think Hornady has published it's BC, but it should be high (for a 17!)
Have you tried either in your 17 Rem?

Flippy: The Rattlesnake bite on the insole (arch?) are of my foot is nearly fully healed!
If you recall, that incident took place in the wee hours of a warm night last August 22nd here in SW Montana!
There is a "lump" of flesh that is under the skin at the bite site that just will not go away - dissipate - unswell or what ever! It is the size of a womans pinky finger.
Other than having occassional (once a week) and temporarily incapacitating (5 minutes or so) "charlie horses" at the site of the snake bite (and the "lump") I am back to "normal".
All the skin on that foot "shed" about 2 weeks after the bite - I assume that "shedding" was from the amazing amount of swelling or skin stretched so tight it "died"? And the discoloration factor comes back after each hot shower or bath in that foot for an hour or so!
I will say this - I will not take Rattlesnake country in a lackadaisical way like I have over the past 40 years!
I don't ever want that to happen to me again!
Oh yeah the 6mm's!
Wasn't it in the 1950's when Winchester brought out the 243 Winchester?
Then the Remington folks brought out the 244 Remington (later to be renamed and revised to 6mm Remington).
Great trend the 6mm's!
I was just looking at my loading log where I have the weights of all my Rifles in the Notes Columns. And my various 6mm's weigh up to 14 pounds - 2 ounces (an old style Remington 40X 27 1/4" barrelled Rangemaster with Leupold 6.5x20 scope). I still have trouble even with my heaviest 6's seeing bullet impact on Varmints!
Yep for "all around Varminting" the 22-250 or a nifty little 6mm (6mm BR or 6mm PPC or maybe even a 6x47?) would outdo a 17 MachIV in many ways. But - I still recommend a 17 centerfire in every dedicated Varminters arsenal!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: Does the quarterbore tagline you used refer to 6mm's or 25 calibers?
I plead ignorance to the answer here?
Long live'em both for that matter!

Dang, Varmintguy, I didn't know you'd been snakebitten. A young lady friend from church got bitten in similar fashion by a copperhead on her lower leg above the ankle one warm evenng in the fall of 2004. I was really impressed by what it did to her. Made her whole leg swell up tremendously and turn purple. She spent a few days in the hospital while they watched to see if she'd have to have a fasciotomy to prevent loss of circulation to her leg muscles. She finally got over it OK, and I hope you will soon, too.

quote:

Originally posted by tuck 2:
Has any one tried the Hornady 20 or 25 gr 17 Cal V-MAX bullets in their 17-221 Fireball (17 Mach IV ) ? I have a 17 Rem. but am thinking about getting a 17 Mach IV for prairie dog shooting.

I am shooting a CZ rebarreled with a Shilen #5 10 twist stainless 25" barrel. I load the 20g Vmax to 4110fps with a load of VV133. I shot one case 10 times and the primer is still tight and have no pressure problems with it. I use all small calibers pretty much, except my 220 Sift AI. The Mach IV is my hands down favorite fun gun in the PD patch. No recoil and using a bipod you can do the sneak on the little buggers and bust em up good inside of 250 yards. Have fun with it and let us know how it shoots.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
PS: Does the quarterbore tagline you used refer to 6mm's or 25 calibers?
I plead ignorance to the answer here?
Long live'em both for that matter!

VarmintGuy, correct, BOTH! I know a 6mm is not really a quarter bore, but it's close...
Maybe my next one will be a 25-06 or maybe a 257. Who knows, maybe another 6mm.
They sure shoot well.

Glad to hear about your foot nearly being healed. It is amazing it has been since August.

tuck......about all I've used in my 17 Remington on the pd s is the 20 gr V-Max ; with a very mild load of H322 I'm basically shooting a Mach IV . The bullet works great and it's lazer flat to about 300 yards .

Haven't shot any yet , but I'm really looking forward to trying out the new 25 gr Vmax this summer ; I think it'll make my 17 a solid 400 yard performer.