ok, first of all, i ain't trying to start some debate or nothing, i am justlooking for a straight foreward answer. coz i am looking to get a .223, and i have heard a lot of good things said about the savage's accuracy out of the box. but, i alos am a very big remington fan. how accurate is u'r savage/remington? i am looking to shoot coyote's at 250, 300 yards tops, but want a rifle that is very very accurate, or at leas as accurate as i can afford. which by the way, ain't really a bunch. i have about 450 saved up now, but really don't wanna blow it all away on just the gun alone, but i got a feeling that i probably will. any suggestions?

"Keep your stick on the ice"

There is no way you can ask this question without "starting something."

Chances are either one will be accurate enough for what you want.

I am a lefty, so it makes my choice very easy. I buy the Savage spend $12 on acraglas to stiffen the flimsy stock and $79 on the Sharp Shooter Supply Trigger. That still has me under $400 for that rifle. With the recent addition of the SSS trigger, I am now shooting 5 shot groups of approx. 1.25" at 300 yards. That's good enough for me.

However, I must say the most accurate rifle I have ever owned was a 1968 year 700 BDL Varmint in .222 Remington. Though I must say, the only thing factory on the rifle was the action.

Don't forget for a varmint rig, you are going to need a good scope. The Elite 4200 6x24 is probably the lowest price really good scope.

Hey Buzz,

I just bought a 1971 model 700 BDL Varmint in 222, and it is also my most accurite rifle. But Mine is 100% stock.

My Savage 11G in 223 will out shoot my brothers Rem 700 223, it will out shoot my Ruger M77 buy far, and about equal to my CZ, maybe "slightly" better. But my CZ is factory, and the Savage has a SSSupply trigger and action bedded.

For a young'n starting out, a used Savage might just be an excellent choice, although a new one, with the new trigger, should also be considered. But, I bought a used 110 for $150, and it shoots in the .7's with handloads after bedding, so I might be biased. JMO, Dutch.

OH NO!!!! Anougher Savage vs. Remington Shoot out!!(pun intended)
Please, dont let Varmint Guy see this...sakofan.. ...YIKES!!!

I have a Savage 110 in 30-06 that will do a 3" group and a Rem 700 22-250 that will do a 2" group, so I would say the Rem 700 design is better?

No, that would be stupid.

I have a VZ24 action I bedded and re barrelled with a Lothar Walthar in 257 RAI that has averages .87".

I think if I rebarreled and bedded the Sav and Rem they would shoot allot better.

well, i decided to get a NEF Handi-rifle. it is 200 dollars at wal-mart. i will also get a Leupold Vari-X1, 4x12-40, for $250, or a Vari-X11, 3x9-40, for $300. i am considering the Vari-X11 tho.

"Keep your stick on the ice"

Do yourself a big favor and buy either the Remington or the Savage. Pass on the NEF. The price looks good on the front end, but you'll be sorry down the road. If it's not a shooter out of the box there isn't anything you can do about it. Also it has NO resale value. I would steer you towards a Savage, but either Remington or Savage would be a much wiser choice than the NEF. The trigger on the NEF is awful and there ain't a whole lot you can do about it. If it doesn't shoot good out of the box....well, it's like a hampster or a disposible lighter , you just don't get it "worked on" Lots of luck with what ever you choose. TC

[ 05-29-2003, 07:11: Message edited by: TC1 ]

I second that! I got an NEF .223 varmint to play with, and that thing is the most frustrating rifle I have ever owned! One day it's shooting into less than an inch at 100 yds, the next time it's 6 inches. I finally gave up on it, got a shotgun barrel fitted, and it's my truck gun now in 12 ga. As for the bolt guns, take a look at the Savage .223 tactical rifle. About $400, and the three I've seen all shot under .375" regularly with good ammo. I'd also say pass on the Leupold and check out an Elite 4200 or SWFA's Super Sniper scopes.

i'm set on the Leuopld, they make damn good scopes. isn't hte elite 4200 a tasco? a Leupold is tons better than a tasco.

"Keep your stick on the ice"

i have also done some thinking, i am going to check out the savage agian. i am re-considering the rifle choice.

"Keep your stick on the ice"

No, an Elite 4200 is a Bushnell scope. They were originally a Bausch & Lomb scope, but Bushnell bought Bausch & Lomb a couple of years back.

They are much better than any Tasco and on par with the Leupold Vari X III for a considerably lower price.

You can get an Elite 4200 2.5x10 for about $320 from SWFA and it has better optics than the VXII line from Leupold.

my buddy has a savage 12VSS with a bushnell 4200 6-24 with the mill dot in it. he shot some 5 shot groups with it that can be covered with a dime. he shot it with 26.5 gr of varget and a moly 40gr. V-max bullet. i would go with the savage in any modle they have and put a good scope on it.

i havent shot my 10FP that must but im sure it will shoot better than any thing Big Green makes.

I own both a Remington and a Savage 223 (with their new adjustable trigger). I have had the Remington for about five years. I have had the Savage about a month.

BOTH are extremely accurate. Both guns are straight out of the box.

On the Remington I have a Springfield Armory "sniper" scope and on the Savage a Sightron.

I am shooting praire dogs at 400 plus yards with both guns.

Regarding the new Savage, I am again the lucky recipient of Seafire's generosity. I sold four guns to buy the new Savage. I was $150.00 short of having enough money to buy the gun. Seafire donated the $150.00.

Kathy

does remington make a heavy barreled .223 in 700?

"Keep your stick on the ice"

They have 2 current versions with heavy varmit barrels. The VS (varmit synthetic) and the VLS (varmit laminated stock). They might even have a stainless barrel in this varmit configuration also. I have one of the VS' in 223. Great gun - very accurate.

Hollywood

crowwaxer, I've got a 700VS .223 that I've been working on for the last month, and once I found a load it likes(found out I've been loading them too HOT)she shoots pretty good, tried some 55gr VMAXs on top of 22.5grs H335, thats one notch down from max in the Hornady manual, shooting between wind gusts of 10MPH, I got a 4 shot group of .194" @100yds. The 5th got taken for a bit of a ride with the wind 5/8" away. I'm also shooting some Rem. 50 PL and they're not doing to bad, once I find the right powder charge I think I'll get them under 3/8", I just would like to shoot when the wind don't hamper my efforts for small groups. No offence to Savage owners, here comes the but, but I'm not a Savage fan in the least bit, probably from a Savage I used to own that flattened the primers on factory ammo and Savage said there's nothing wrong with the rifle, I can't stand that action either. Jay.

Sounds like Ruger when I told them their gun was shooting 6" groups. The general impression that I got is that I should be happy the gun fires as anything beyond that "meets accuracy standards".

I currently own 4 Savage bolt guns and the least accurate one is still capable of producing 5 shot MOA groups. That's ok because it's on the cheapy 111L models in .250 Savage that I paid $200 for and use as a beater.

The two heavy barreled ones average 5 shot groups under 1/2" (for dozens of groups) and both have shot a few groups in the .2"s. As I have mentioned before, 300 yard groups of 1.25" are the norm for both of these rifles.

Now that being said, my 2 heavier barreled rifles could never be mistaken for a out of the box stock rifle. I have stiffened the cheesy stocks with acraglas and valve rods, installed a 12oz trigger on one and a 20oz trigger on the other, and bedded the action properly on both.

All in all to have spent as little money as I did, I am very happy with the accuracy I get from both of these rifles. Considering I am a lefty, it would have cost me a pile of money to have 4 bolt action rifles made up in the calibers I wanted from Remington or Winchester.

I see quite a few more people diss Savage on the Internet than I do when I am shooting my Savages at the gun range. I have angered more than a couple of shooters with far nicer guns. On the other hand, I hear about a lot more 1/2 MOA Savage rifles than I have ever seen at the range However, I think that last comment really applies to shooters instead of the rifle.

Hot Core:

How about 2000 pesos instead?

The other person was handicapped plus is very generous to other people and I thought Ms. Pabst deserved a little appreciation in the world, instead of always getting crap from others.

Of course there is always the lottery.

Seafire, I hope your generousity gets paid back 10 fold. two thumbs up for you friend!

I have a Remington 700 1967 vintage varminter(bought it new)in 22-250 and a Savage 12 in 22-250 also.They both shoot well under 1" even with factory ammo.You will not go wrong with either for what you want,the Savage will cost a good bit less though.The new accu trigger must be used to believe,and comes on the heavy barrel Savages.A 4200 Elite Bushnell in 4x16 adjustable objective will be one of the most reasonably priced high optical quality scopes you can buy for the rifle although the Vari X lll or Conquest scopes are great if you can go the extra $.Weaver grand slam and Sightron are two other reasonably priced scopes that would fill the bill for you.

woods

[ 05-31-2003, 15:43: Message edited by: woodseye ]

Just picked up a savage 10fp in 223 saturday,has the new accura triger came set on 1.9 lbs,really feels good,put a nikon,4x14x40 on it. Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet,bought a couple boxes of Win 55 gr bullets to try.I don't varmit hunt I just want it to shoot sometimes at the range,and don't want to reload yet has anyone else got this model and can you suggest a factory load to try?

how much did it cost? i am trying to get a general idea of what they cost, without being ripped off.

"Keep your stick on the ice"

I got it for $475 including tax and shipping,shopped around and it was the best price I could find.suggested price is $558

Hello Kathy,

Welcome to Accurate Reloading. A lot of friendly, helpful people here. Mind you when the Savage and Remington fans get at it, you'd never know it. It's always good to have a hard hat handy then. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Hey, hey, hey. I just read back through the responses and wish to congratulate everyone involved for a fine display of civil behavior. It's encouraging to see Savage and Remington fans
discuss something without resorting to name calling or casting aspersions on each other's lineage. Now if we could just bring Leupold affectianados in line we'd really have a major accomplishment. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

"I like a Savage cause it's what I shoot, so it has to be the best". There, how's that?
"If you shoot a Remington you gotta be crazy".
Sounds kinda stupid doesn't it? You here this alot on the internet.
I like them all.
"Only accurate rifles are interesting".
Mad`

Got to shoot the savage,for a rifle thats susposed to shoot out of the box I must have goten one assembled on a monday.Tried several brands and grains of ammo but didn't shoot to well,the stock is very flemsly,can stand it up and run a dollar bill between the barrel but if I lay it in the rest the weight of the barrel keeps the dollar from even starting under the barrel,the hotter the barrel gets the tighter the groups get but nothing to brag about,haven't shot it past 100 yds ,haven't got it to shoot good at 100 yet.Think I am going to have to get another stock or have this one bedded and make it more ridged,any sugestions?? Sure do love the new trigger though,crisp at 11/2 lbs.

CW,

Either the Remington or the Savage will work great for your .223. Get which ever one you like the best. If you are getting a coyote gun stay away from the heavy barrels. Get a basic Savage or Rem 700 ADL Synthetic. Adjust the trigger. Put the best scope on it you can afford. The Elite 3200 3-9x40 would be my suggestion as best bang for the buck, but a VX-1 will do just fine. Don't overthink this...get your rifle and go call some coyotes.

Good Hunting,

Bob

I am a Die Hard Remington fan... ...but I also own a Savage 112V in 22-250 that is wonderfully accurrate and now that I put a new trigger on it, is even easier to shoot to it's potential. So even though my blood runs green, you won't hear me knocking Savage products.

I can find threads on many boards that bash both Remington and Savage, just like I can find threads that glorify them both. So I think it is all a matter of personal preference, shoot what you have confidence in and what works for you. I am sure that both have produced a lemon from time to time, but I think they are the exception to the rule. I think both Remington and Savage, in general are producing some of the most accurate factory rifles ever produced, for that we should be thankful...

My recent experience with Remington is something to be desired. I have the Monday morning rifle also. My new 700P (.223 cal.) would not group much better than an inch. After much tweaking got it down to about 1/2 inch at 100. Found out that fired brass had runout of about .004 in. Every Remington at the range that I sampled had runout of less than 1.5 thou.

Sent it back to Remington. They "repaired" it somehow and runout dropped to about 1.5 thou without replacing the barrel. Great. (They did a great lap job on the barrel.) Now the chamber is very big. The fired cases shoulders pull back upon firing because the cases bulge out the sides. If you neck size only, the brass and fire a heavy load, the brass will split at the web or show stress. If you full length size, the brass lengthens but the accuracy deteriorates to about 3/4 inch @ 100. The neck sized cases will not fit in the sliding sleeve of a Forster bullet seater because they are too fat.

Wrote to President Millner of Remington. After 25 days have not heard back from him.

Customer Service said to sent it back for repairs. Have sent it back to Remington for a second try. Will let you know how this works out.

Questions for you experts. How did Remington get the runout down to 1.5 thou? My speculation is they polished the chamber on one side. The repair order indicated they "replaced the bolt and set to minimum headspace". Any ideas.

Am almost ready to give up on the Remington and buy a Savage.

I bought an ADL synthetic in 223 in April and after some fooling around it shoots under an inch and a bit better most of the time. I shot three three shot groups under half an inch today and two 5 shot groups just under an inch. A ten shot group with the two fliers excused was an inch exactly, I don't think I was shooting all that well today but the rifle was.

Up date on the Savage 10FP,took the stock off and it looked like the front bedding post was a little short,the plastic was a little higher than the bedding block.I asked a gun smith about puting a steel washer on top of the post and he said that wouldn't work,that it needed to be glass bedded and the stock filled with bondo to make it more ridiged.I didn't want to leave it with him now because I got it to shoot this summer so I decided to give the washer a try,took and glued a washer the same size on the bedding post,now when I lay it down in the rest the barrel doesn't drop down touching the stock,went to the range and shot some factory rounds,got a lot better groups,decided to get a set of dies and reload some,the 3rd load I tried was very good shot several 5 shot groups less than a 1/2 in.Loaded up 12 rounds to see what it would do at 200,it took 7 rounds to get it zeroed ,but the last 5 were almost dead center and a .413 in group.Got some loaded up now to try 300 yds next.
The more I shoot it the more I like this savage.

First: For Hot Core,
this is an older post. However if you liked Kathy's last name of Pabst, the guy she use to date, but would now love to cut his nuts off, had the last name of Busch.

So we had a Pabst dating a Busch. A little ironic humor I thought.

As far as the Savage vs the Remington.

I don't own a Savage, but do a have several Remingtons. I love the Remingtons for their accuracy and fit, they are attractive and well made. ( Have the VLS models and only one Synthetic stock, stainless barrel one). The only thing they needed was a trigger adjustment.
Would not trade these rifles off for the world.

However on the Savage, I do not like their synthetic stocked Varmint rifle. Won't even pick one up. Period. But... on the 223 Savage with the laminate stock and the new accu trigger.... That rifle is a beauty at twice the costs. Accuracy, feel, estetics...

I have several other friends who were going to make the purchase since I saw Kathy's Savage 12BVSS, and recommended that they look at the savage. It had not been on their lists. However in each instance they bought the Savage.

this rifle needs nothing but a scope, and hit the range, and then the field. If only they all were like that.

In a couple of years we will be all whining, remember back in 2003 when you could get a Savage 12 BVSS for under $550.00!!!

I have 2 Savage 110's, one is a .22-250Rem., the other is a .243Win. Both are quite accurate.
My gripe is the short life of the barrel. That may have nothing to do with Savage. I don't know.
I don't shoot max loads in either, but the barrels didn't set any endurance records for sure.
Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal,
Could you estimate how many rounds you have down the barrels of your two Savages?
Thanks,
Jeff

Cal, when you say accurate, can you quantify that in terms of MOA or inches at 100 yds. Savage has intrigued be since this thread started. Saw the 22-250 in laminated stock and it looked good. The Accu-trigger was different but seemd very functional. The only problem was that the crown on that particular rifle was rough. It would not interfere with the bullet but represented sloppy workmanship. Tx.
Ron

I have about 2500 rounds @ 3300fps+ down this POS. Should I re-barrel now or just buy a Remington?
Thanks, Dale McClure