If you could only have one rifle for varmints. And by varmints, this includes everything from gophers/prairie dogs/sage rats/ground hogs to foxes/coyotes/wolves and anything else that might show up while shooting.

Ranges would be out to 500 yards or as far as you can shoot with accuracy.

Shooting would include everything from calling coyotes to shooting off a bench/prone at gophers.

What would the perfect scope and reticle combination be for you?

I think for me it would have to be a scope in the 6-20x power range. 6 power being low enough for the close shots when calling and 20x or there abouts should do fine for the distance shots.

As for the reticle, I am not sure. I think a fine duplex. The duplex would bracket the coyotes better in the lower light. And the fine wires should not cover up too much of the target at distance.


What does everybody else think?

Sid

I'll second for the 6x20, but i really like a 1/4 minute dot. Haven't really tried one of the reticules with multiple dots, but done right they should be great

Well, if calling coyotes were not in the mix I would agree with you on the 6.5 X 20 Leupold. To be more specific, I prefer the EFR version of that fine scope.

BUT, if coyote calling is thrown in I have to hedge my bet a little and go with the Leupold 4.5X14 Vari-X III with the AO and the fine crosshairs. This scope is no longer available from Leupold in the configuration I own several of, but the new 30mm LR versions should work well.

I much prefer to be able to crank the power down to 4.5 to get some field of view when calling coyotes. I have had them get right in my lap on occasion.

I have done some real fun shooting of colony type varmints at 750 plus yards with the 6.5X20 scopes but for all around use, would prefer the 4.5X14. ( I guess I am spoiled, I own several of each.)

R F

R Flowers

I agree that I like the idea of 4.5x on the low end for calling. But with only 14x on the top end I think is a little too limiting, in my opinion.

I am using a 5-15x 3200 right now and that was part of the reason for asking this question.

I find that the 15x is just a little low for shooting at distance. Tough to see the little guys way out there.

And I don't every seem to turn the scope down to 5x, even when I am calling. But then again the areas I am calling are fairly open and I can usually see them coming in from a ways away.


Sid

I'm not sure about gun i'd use but the scope part's easy for me-- 4-16X Burris Signature with Ballistic Mil-Dot reticle-- heck put a target elevation turret on it to for varmints beyond the reticle's 14.5 MOA lower post tip.

Steve,
Tell me about the Buris Scope.....What makes it special.....How does it compare with a Leupold in 4.5 X 14 ...Why would you chose that scope over all others......thanks
George

George-- i think the Burris Signature line is a quality optic, the 4-16X has enuf mag. to handle long shots @ small targets, and if i'm not mistaken the BMD subtensions are set at the highest mag. for that scope, and provides a whopping 14.5 MOA of trajectory compensation without having to turn a turret which should get the shooter to 500-800 yds. depending on cartridge/bullet combination. That reticle also provides excellent windage, and ranging flexibility, all in an affordable package. There's no question there are others out there that are competitive, but for me this is the 1 i'd choose, for all around varminting applications.

Definitely the 4.5-14. I like the IOR with the MP8 reticle and have used it to 650 yards. However, it is a BIG scope, so the Burris or the Leupold, both with their range compensating reticles would be good choices. That said, I like my Zeiss Conquests, and I use their 4.5-14 on a light weight .243 that is used for close in coyotes or 400 yd groundhogs. I use a laser and click in elevation.

Steve,
Thanks for your input.....I've never tried a Burris but I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I just might try one......I have mounted several Z Conquest scopes for friends and its a good quality scope....A little "pricey" but good.....Thanks again....George

Graylake: I think for the all around Rifle/scope Varminting combo I would probably go with a repeating bolt action Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger or a single shot bolt action Rifle in caliber 22 Remington Bench Rest (most likely a Remington 40XB-KS with 27 1/4" barrel)!
I will stick with factory offered Rifles in my considerations for answering your question at this time!
Most likely I would opt for the Remington 700 VLS (26" heavy barrel) in caliber 204 Ruger! I simply can not make up my mind on short notice between these two fine offerings! But a fine trigger, a bolt action and a heavy barrel at least 26" long would be in the forefront of my considerations.
As for the all around scope to sit on one of these two Rifles I think I would continue to be very happy with one of Leupolds fine variables in 6.5X20 power range. I have a fondness for the fine Du-plex in this model! I have used these scopes in virtually ALL Varminting situations as well as at night when calling Varmints. Indeed there are better choices strictly for night calling use! But I can never recall "losing" a predator at night due to the somewhat small field of view of this model. One needs to practice a lot with this power range to be comfortable and proficient with them. During the day when calling and a Varmint comes "into my lap" I simply aim down the side of the barrel - when they are within 20 yards! I hesitate to admit this in public because the naysayers may try to flame me for this crude (and to some unpractical or unfeasible) aiming method. But I have used it for decades now and I again can not recall "losing" a called in Varmint while aiming thusly.
I own many scopes with high ends to their varying power that stop at 16, 14, 12 or 10 power and at ranges past 400 yards the 20 power variables clearly and appreciably outperform the lower powers!
There is nothing I would rather do than being able to clearly see and aim at the head of a wise old Prairie Dog at 450 yards or so as the PD is just peeking over the edge of his mound! Then I touch off the shot and suck that Varmint out of his den mouth and flip him into the air! With the 20 power scopes one can often do this, while with the lesser powers they simply are not quite up to this task!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have a Bushnell Elite 4200 in 6x24 which is quite good. The optics are terrific, very clear. It has a fine crosshair and 1/8th minute adjustments. However, I do wish it had a dot instead of crosshairs. I've gotten used to the dot in recent years and have really grown to like it. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I sold my 6.5 x 20 Leupold that topped my 300 Win Mag a bought a Bushnell Elite 4200 in 4 x 16 to replace it. The low end was too high in my opinion starting at 6.5 power to see anything close up. I also sold my Bushnell Elite 4200 in 8 x 32, but I kept my 8.5 x 25 Leupold to top off my next varmint rifle. I had a 22-250 Remington Stainless Synthetic Fluted but I am back to wanting a 40x in either a .223 or a .222 single shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Sibley:
I have a Bushnell Elite 4200 in 6x24 which is quite good. The optics are terrific, very clear. It has a fine crosshair and 1/8th minute adjustments. However, I do wish it had a dot instead of crosshairs. I've gotten used to the dot in recent years and have really grown to like it. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I believe you can send it back to Bushnell and have the reticule(sp) changed to a dot for a small fee.

Thks. George-- but i certainly have to say that tere are a lot of scopes i haven't tried or even seen-- and have never even seen a Zeiss in the flesh yet, so there are a lot of comparisons i haven't done, but i do know something about ballistic and ranging reticles, and their applications for long-range shooting, and this is the main reason i suggest the Burris, as well as their quality/warranty.

Steve,
I have a suggestions for you: I feel like Ballistics and reloading is one thing I'm really knowledgable about and I have been "at it" for over 40 years....I have all my own reamers made for all of my rifles so I can have the chambers set up exactly like I want them...etc..etc..About Scopes: About 15 years ago, I started having all my scopes "dotted out" I have a 1/4 min. dot put at the center crosshair, then a 1/2 min dot put at 300, 400 and 500 yards. The total cost, including postage is $103.50. Its easy and it works perfectly....You can, of course, go beyond 500 yds. and I do on some rifle/scope combinations. One thing that concerns some people about this is that they might want to change bullets..Well, If you check your ballistic program, you'll find that in most cases, you can adjust your 100 yd. zero only sightly, and you won't be off more that about an inch out to 400 or 500yds and thats insignficant even when shooting P/dogs...I've been using this system for years and couldn't hardly live without it.....If you are interested, I can give you chapter and verse on exactly who to get to do etc....Good luck....
George

George-- i've got an old 3.5-10X Tasco World Calss Plus, that i had TK Lee put dots in also exactly as u did. 1= 0-300, 2=400, and 3=500.

I understand how the system works-- simply calculate 100 yd. stadia subtension (in MOA), and match it to the ballistics program MOA calcs. (verified @ the range of course).

I've got an article coming out on the Specialty Pistols forum soon entitled, "Tactical Ballistic and Ranging Reticle Analysis", in which i've detailed all my findings of the last several years about this topic. When it comes out (shouldn't be 2 long), maybe we should compare notes.

U wouldn't believe how i came up with some of this stuff-- at my old house (don't have it anymore-- wife wanted something better---- of course), i had the perfect system with a road that ran out beyond 1000 yds. with all kinds of signs along it that i'd measured, and lasered back to my front window, that i could use to measure reticle subtensions, calculate subtension changes with magnfication changes, etc. Belive it or not there was a sign @ exactly 102 yds. out in front that had holes drilled in it @ exactly 1" intervals that i could establish the std.'s for reticle subtensions-- it was TERRIFIC, BUT unfortunately gone now (I doubt the new owner measures reticle subtensions there now-- but what a terrific buying feature-- i can see it now-- here's the ad- 2 bedroom, 2 bath with reticle subtension measuring front window) HA.

Tell me what u're doing for zeroing, etc.

Sorry we hijacked your thread GrayLake!

sscoyote

no need to apologize. I am interested in all of this stuff.

That is one of the reasons that I started this thread. I am getting a new scope and was trying to decide what reticle I should get.

I was thinking about the varmint reticle from Leupold. What I have read the lines are set to be used at a certain power. Now if the lines don't match my ballistics, I should be able to adjust the power ring up/down to get the point of aim closer to the point of impact. Is that correct?

What do you think?

I don't know enough about this stuff to go and get dots installed in my scope like you are talking about. I was thinking that the varmint reticle is a close/cheaper/easier version of what you are talking about.


Thanks for your help


Sid

Steve,
Thats very interesting and I always look forward to your articles....I try to keep it very simple....I sight in at the center crosshair (with a 1/4 min. dot) at 200 yards (dead on)...then I have a dot for 300 yds., 400 yds., etc....With a 200 yd zero, I'm about 2" low at 250 yds. so anythng out to around 250 or so, I can hold dead on at any power setting..When I'm hunting Coyotes, if I'm in an open area, I'll use my Leica Range finder and try to find some 250 yd. markers in 3 or 4 different directions....Then, once a Coyote gets inside that area, I know its a dead on hold...No Problem...I use a Leupold 4.5 x14x40 with this dot arrangement....and I usually have it set at the lowest setting, 4.5 power...If my target is beyond 250 yds., I usually have plenty of time to turn the power up and often I can get him ranged ...depends.....I don't try to use the dots for ranging....Its just to simple to use the above system.....
George

Greylake,
I didn't mean to monoplize your thread but I hope you may have learned a little something....If you have any interest in the above system. I'll be more than happy to help any way I can....
George

INteresting system George-- follows the KISS principle well-- the best system no doubt. Got a buddy of mine that's got a custom reticle set up for a Middlested he's using (fixed 12X Leupold). But now he's rebarreling to a different cartridge, and the dots certainly won't match the trajectory as well. So i told him to just measure the x-hair to each dot @ 100 yds. (sort of MOA values for each dot subtension), then match it up to the drop figures on a ballistics program (in MOA), and he's got his zeros. If he plays with the x-hair zero some he can manipulate it a little to get a better trajectory fit-- then check @ the range.

Seems the best way to understand this whole concept is to think of each stadia gap as an angular system of measuring having a certain measurement @ 100 yds. 2X that @ 200, 3X @300, and 3.76 x that @ 376 yds. U can see that it's a linear system that can be matched up to a certain measurement downrange (important to understand that these downrange measurements can be used for zeroing, ranging, and windage, as these are simply the dwonrange measurements we're talking about). Here's a couple links to some discussions that can describe the system better maybe:
This 1st 1 is an excellent description of "the system":
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=65451&an=0&page=0#65451

Here's a couple discussions we had on the optics talk forum:
http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1713&PN=

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1705&PN=1

and this was copied from Big Game hunting forum above:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/642108812

Sid the Leupold system has good downrange zeroing, windage, and ranging built into the reticle (altho i don't believe the ranging system the reticle is capable of is fully utilized), and is based on certain "groups" of cartridges with similar trajectories. Some groups are designed to work @ highest mag., and some will work with different reticle subtensions @ lower power. U just find the gp. the cartridge u're using fits into, and match it up to their system. It's designed to fit the following principal that works with any reticle that changes subtension with magnification change (2nd focal plane reticles)-- as magnification changes, reticle subtension also changes linearly, and follows an inversely proportional equation, i.e. If the plex post tip is 4" @ 100 yds. on 9X of a 3-9X scope, it will be 2X that @ 1/2 the magnification of 4.5X-- or 8" (assuming the power ring is calibrated properly-- a big assumtion mind u). I've seen this used in the field, AND IT WORKS-- excellently. The Swarovski and Kahles TDS reticle that Tom Smith came up with in the 90's is really the mother of all ballistic reticle concepts. The guy was an Air Force pilot in Vietnam that adapted the jet fighter sighting systems to scope optics--- VERY successfully. All the stuff that's come out since then is really based on his concepts, BUT Smith put everything into that reticle including angle firing solutions, and ranging. The next time u gat a chance take 1 of your scopes look thru it, and change magnification, and watch the subtensin of whatever reticle u're using change-- simple plex is the easiest to see, and u can visualize the linearity of it all-- it's a fun and terrfic comcept to understand, and believe me when i say that understanding the angular measurement concept of scope reticles will open up a whole different world of shooting-- i equate it to the enlightenment reloading provides-- maybe better.

Oh yeah almost forgot about the TDS system-- u can see right here--
http://www.kahlesoptik.com/products/tds_reticle.html

What do u know-- they just posted the article today. Here's the link--

http://www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf

Great article Steve, Well done....A lot of very good information.....

Thks. George-- u know u can read those things 20 times before sending them in, and then when they're published whammo-- u finally see all the mistakes u made. There's 2 mistakes in that article, but fortunately not any big ones.

The whole idea that i've done thru my research is combined the TDS concepts with mil-ranging and interpolation. Didn't even think about this association much until it was published.

Steve

I have read the article a couple times now. Very informative. I have passed it a long to a friend, that is interested in this as well.

Thank you for all of your help.


Sid

Thks. Sid-- hey let me know what he thinks of it (honestly-- i can take it). I'd like to know how easy it is to understand the concepts i'm trying to present there.

Nikon monarch 6.5x-20x with target dot reticle. Cheaper than the Leupold but every bit as good.

I'm a woodchuck hunter. My ideal rig was a 22-250, 1-12 twist (for 55 grain Sierra blitz king/Nosler ballistic tips for high BC), and an 8x fixed scope. I used two scopes. One is a Lyman AA with 1 moa dot and target turrents, the other is a Leupold with duples reticle, and target turrents.

A quality 8x scope (with excellent resolution) has never let me down for up to 500+ yard shots. The other strong benefit is that the power is "low" enough so you can spot your shot in the scope (medium to heavy weight barrel, with a total gun weight of 9.5 lbs ish area). More power wouldn't have given me any increase in hits. Misses were for range and wind calcuations (which is the real fun of it all). Variable? If you are going to to get a close shot, then yes I'd consider a variable-probably in the 4-14 range, but 3-9 would be ok too.

The 1 inch dot is very nice in the field. You can use it as a range finder. 500 yards is a dot covering the head. 300 yards is nose to eye. One moa is also the pragmatic accuracy of the gun, so you are looking at your "probability zone" with the 1 moa dot.

It may not be the best for 600-1000 yards, and smaller animals, but it is pretty darn perfect for my needs and situation.

OK, Has anyone used either of these scopes, Burris Ballistiplex or a Sheppard Ranging reticle? I have one of each and have yet to mount them. Just wondering how they'd work out for you?

quote:

Originally posted by Graylake:
If you could only have one rifle for varmints. And by varmints, this includes everything from gophers/prairie dogs/sage rats/ground hogs to foxes/coyotes/wolves and anything else that might show up while shooting.

Ranges would be out to 500 yards or as far as you can shoot with accuracy.

Shooting would include everything from calling coyotes to shooting off a bench/prone at gophers.

What would the perfect scope and reticle combination be for you?

I think for me it would have to be a scope in the 6-20x power range. 6 power being low enough for the close shots when calling and 20x or there abouts should do fine for the distance shots.

As for the reticle, I am not sure. I think a fine duplex. The duplex would bracket the coyotes better in the lower light. And the fine wires should not cover up too much of the target at distance.


What does everybody else think?

Sid

The set up I have now fits that order to a “Tâ€. A Winchester M70 Coyote in .223 WSSM topped with a Burris Black Diamond 8X–32X–50mm scope. Deadly on varmints out to as far as I care to shoot. Lawdog

Hey Doc-- the Ballistic Plex is a great reticle, and can be adapted for ranging, decnet windage reference as well as it's main purpose of downrange zeroing. I think it's 1 of the best ballistic reticle's because of it's simplicity. Never worked with a Shepherd yet-- BUT it has to be similar to any other ballistic/ranging reticle system out there-- reticle subtension vs. downrange measurement (either bullet drop for zeros or target size for ranging).

Greylake,

When an all around rifle is mentioned you have to get it to cover the toughest shot and that's wolves at 500 yds! I would like a powerful gun for that or pass up the shots.

Maybe a 243 would do it with the best long range load but then you have gophers in the mix. One gun is not going to do everything perfect. If the gopher shots are not too far then a reduced load out of the 243 for them and keep the shots at big animals to closer range.

As to a scope it depends on ones eyesight but a 3-9 would do it for me. Now that there are lasers I hold off for the fast shots and click off for the long ones using a plex reticule.

More power is nice for shooting groups and those old 4.5-14 Leu's are good scopes. If I got a new scope it would be a Zeiss Conquest though as they are even better.

To add: When does the black bear season open there?

Not to erase the orginal post of mine but I started with the 30-06 for varmints. Now there is a do it all gun!. I am not kidding.

I think I'd have to own a lot of scopes before I'd "Know" which one is perfect.

I'm actually interested to know if anybody has tried the Mueller scopes? I heard they are very good for the cost and I'm temped to get on for my big heavy .22-250 as it doesn't see the abuse that my light rifles do.

What say you? Nate

For the use you have described for me I would go with the Smith & Wesson Scope I have. Power range is 4-18x42 w/AO. Low profile resettable target turrets with 1/4" clicks. Reticle is mil dot.

I don't think 6 power is low enough for calling or jump shooting jacks. 18 is plenty of power out to 500 yards.

Mike.

Been looking at the new Leupold reticles lately, and have really taken a liking to the new Tactical Milling Reticle. Here's a contribution i put onto the Nosler forum just a little while ago--

If this topic is still active, i'd also take a good look at the Tactical Milling Reticle Leupold's putting out-- simply a mil-dot reticle but the dots have been replaced by hash marks for more precise reference, as well as .5 mil marks-- better yet, and .2 mil marks between the 4th and 5th mil stadia--

http://www.leupold.com/products/reticles_TMR.htm

That reticle is gonna provide excellent ranging qualities for small as well as large targets, and good windage reference, and downarange zeroing to the tune of 17 MOA. This could be 1 of the best affordable reticles out there these days for long-range varminting applications.

The Special Purpose Reticle may be a little too big for varminting purposes (the axes are divided into 2.5 mil, or 8.6 MOA of trajectory stadia reference). This system is not easy to use for reticle ranging on smaller targets. It may provide OK downrange zeroing if the shooter develops an "interpolative" zeroing system between stadia.

I think this reticle is probably a little better than the Ballistic Mil-Dot.

I've just ordered the 4.5-14X50 Loopy with the Varmint Hunters reticle, from Bearbasin. It arrives in June with one of my clients. It will be going onto my 22-250. Can't wait to try it out on the local dassie (rock hyrax) population. I see the upper end trajectory figures align very closely to my 69gr load in that calibre, so it should be trouble free motoring. Pity it is in yards not meters, but there it is. When are you Yankee boys gonna get metricated already??? LOL!!

U know that's a good idea Pete-- i've heard once u get used to it it's supposed to be easier. I've got 1 of those on a 4.5-14X Loopy LR (30 mm tube/40 objective) on a Savage Striker-- it's afine reticle, although the wind dots/stadia don't match up to the 10/20 mph calcs. I had to adapt the system to make it work.

I have also just purchased 2 of the 6.5-20x40mm LR with the varmint reticle.

They are on my savage bvss in 22-250 and the other one went on my wife's new savage model 12 LP in 22-250.

This is the rifle I decided on for her to shoot gophers and coyotes.

I thnk it was a nice 30th birthday present.

I was going to get a 204. But the wait time and the lack of loaded rounds and components up here in Canada, I decided to stay away from the 204 for a couple more years. Atleast til the production catches up with the demand.

I have not shot it yet, but I think that the scope should work well with this cartridge. The lines might not line up perfect for the POI at various ranges. But I think it will help in the hold over. And will be a little less confusing. May go to a ballistic reticle down the road. Once we are use to using a reticle with more than just a duplex reticle.