Guys, I'm trying to figure out about how many yards a 22-250, or 220 Swift (for example) firing say a 55 grain Vmax at 3,600 fps will really "red mist" or fling a small animal like a PD into the air and deliver explosive performance? Or, another way of asking is ....How many yards out is it that the energy drops off and a small animal just more or less gets pushed over to the side, but no longer does the spectacular acrobatics?

What I'm really trying to do is use ballistic charts based on your experience to estimate the necessary energy or speed of a bullet out of my next long-range rifle that wll deliver such performance.

I'm thinking that at 200 yards a 22-250 sends a 55 grain Vmax to a prarie-dog with 981ft.Lbs energy and at 2,835fps. So then.....at 500 yards, will a 7mm mag sending a 120Vmax to a prarie dog at a heftier 1,265 ft.lbs, but at a slower 2,179fps deliver the same acrobatics?

I shoot a ton of pds and when I break out the 22-250 AI, 52 gr. Amax at 3900 fps it will pitch one nicely at 350-375. Beyond that its still kills but you lose a little lift. My .204s will pick one up out to 200-250 yds.

Never shot anything w/ 22-250 other than a groundhog at some 200 or so yds, but as for the caliber, can say that w/an 8 twist barrel, 30", Sierra 80gr MK's, 1000yd match shooting is a lot of fun and will definitely do the job. Some years ago 3 or 4 of us who shot someplace at least two times a month, each built a rifle in 22-250 for 6-1000yd prone/sling/iron sight style shooting(NRA LR) and our scores were no less than shooting the 308 and actually improved a bit. Seriously doubt the impact on a prarie dog would be what you are looking for, but can say while pulling targets in the pits, the impact of the 80gr Sierra in the bank behind the target would most definitely tear your head off. Impressive round even at those distances.

The problem with the heavy .22 bullets is ricochets. They are much more prone to producing a ricochet than the lighter varmint weight bullets. When the ranch hands start complaining about ricochets flying over their head you will not be welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
The problem with the heavy .22 bullets is ricochets. They are much more prone to producing a ricochet than the lighter varmint weight bullets. When the ranch hands start complaining about ricochets flying over their head you will not be welcome.

Thanks for the input. Now we don't want to "shoot his eye out" do we?

Also alot of the time they will make a pin hole and not blow the critter up.

I've launched a few rockchucks, which are bigger and heavier than a prairie dog, with a 22-250 50 g at a Muzzle velocity of 3800 out to 435 yards when they are still doing back flips for you and circling their tail in that universal sign of "I give up -- don't shoot again".

I don't know if the added weight allows them to absorb more energy or the added weight reduce the height of the back flip that ends up in a face plant.

I shot some rockchucks this spring at 390 yards with a fast .223 starting out at 3925 fps with a 40g that still had the spotter laughing his butt off.

I would think that this is one of those times when the speed element comes into play and we all appreciate somersaults and back flips in our quarry.

I've already got a 7mmRem Mag for the project that will weigh about 14 lbs and have a muzzle brake. I was planning on using the 120 gr Vmax at 3400 FPS muzzle velocity for a few 400-600 yard shots.

According to teancum's input about his 22-250; his 50gr Vmax at 3800fps muzzle velocity is doing 1,980fps at 435 yards, and lifting the rockchuck up into the air with 475 ft.lbs of energy......

So then.... according to ballistics data, I see that a 7mm Mag firing a 120gr. 7mm Vmax is going to be doing 1,971 fps at 600 yards, and hitting the rockchuck with 1,035ft.lbs of energy. That ought to deliver acrobatics worth the extra noise and recoil.

I think the important thing too is TO BE SURE I GET AS MUCH BARREL TWIST AS POSSIBLE. On another websight forum, a gentlemen said the rate of twist and energy pent up inside that bullet made his 223 bullet perform more explosively then his faster but slower spinning 22-250 bullet.

I already have a 20tac and a 22x6.5x47 for the first 100 to 500 yards, and wanted the 7mm firing the 120Vmax for shots starting at 400 yards and going out to 600+ yards.

Interesting! Just last month on the day where Bobby Brown and I shot the 39 groundhogs in a day, we had a discussion about "launching varmints" with different bullets. His(the shoots) first connect was a groundhog lying on a rock ledge at 305 yards. His well placed shot using a 50 grain VMAX(22-250) just gave a "little lift up" and then settling back down on the rock, "DRT"! That's when the discussion started. He said he'd had guys tell him that "launching" wouldn't happen. It was a bit of reaction or nerves or somesuch exhibited by the varmint from the impact before death. I said "We'll disprove that theory!!" Then I placed the 260 Remington on the GHD Tripod Rest and proceeded to "dial it in to 305 yards" and fired the shot using a 140 grain AMAX. The previously "dead" groundhog proceeded to be lifted approximately 3 feet in the air, turn at least 2 complete flips, and land 3-4 feet behind the rock where he was at the advent of the shot!!! That's a "launch!!" I've seen launches at 225 yards with a 223. I've seen "launches" with a 204 from 300 provided the target was on a post or a tree stump or some such. I've seen many launches from a 25-06 regardless of range up to 500 yards when using 90 grain Winchester P.E.P.'s or 100 grain Speer HP's.Bottom line is, You can sometimes generate a "launch" with any of the varmint rounds if conditions are right. I like to mix the lauches with the long range just "fold their head and pass aways" that comes with extended varmint hunting ranges whether it's a 223 or 300SAUM................didn't mention that one!.........110 VMAXs at 3600+ or 125 TNT's at 3500 plus get just downright ugly...........launches or explosions or both at once!! A custom built 300 RUM pushing 180 grain Nosler BT's at 3600 is really something to behold at 400 yards!! No need for such carnage!! Just fun now and then!! GHD

Nothing like actual experience to definitively answer a question! Thank you for your testimony on that!

I will proceed with my 7mm mag/120 vmax varmint rig project and not wonder if it is capable of impressive carcass carnage at 500-600 yards..... ESPECIALLY NOT being concerned with it on Rock-Chuck or PD sized animals.

More on ricochets, A 22-250 has enough velocity and energy to produce deadly wounds on a human being in excess of 3 miles.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
More on ricochets, A 22-250 has enough velocity and energy to produce deadly wounds on a human being in excess of 3 miles.

Ever wonder who tests this stuff ?

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
More on ricochets, A 22-250 has enough velocity and energy to produce deadly wounds on a human being in excess of 3 miles.

Oh..Lordy...PLEASE! This is the second time you've cut into this thread to offer us nothing other then the dangers of bullets. I'm 55 years old and don't care to be lectured any further. Take your stuff over to Sarah Brady's websight where your nagging about bullet richochet and other possible gun injuries/hysteria will be better appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by 6flute:
I've already got a 7mmRem Mag for the project that will weigh about 14 lbs and have a muzzle brake. I was planning on using the 120 gr Vmax at 3400 FPS muzzle velocity for a few 400-600 yard shots.

According to teancum's input about his 22-250; his 50gr Vmax at 3800fps muzzle velocity is doing 1,980fps at 435 yards, and lifting the rockchuck up into the air with 475 ft.lbs of energy......

So then.... according to ballistics data, I see that a 7mm Mag firing a 120gr. 7mm Vmax is going to be doing 1,971 fps at 600 yards, and hitting the rockchuck with 1,035ft.lbs of energy. That ought to deliver acrobatics worth the extra noise and recoil.

I think the important thing too is TO BE SURE I GET AS MUCH BARREL TWIST AS POSSIBLE. On another websight forum, a gentlemen said the rate of twist and energy pent up inside that bullet made his 223 bullet perform more explosively then his faster but slower spinning 22-250 bullet.

I already have a 20tac and a 22x6.5x47 for the first 100 to 500 yards, and wanted the 7mm firing the 120Vmax for shots starting at 400 yards and going out to 600+ yards.

I would love to see the video that the 7mm produces!!!!!!!!!

We have shot rock chucks that were lying on a large rock with their back to us on the edge of some of the basalt cliffs that we have here in Idaho. If the shooter can shoot just a whisper lower you can lift them off the rock and help them on their way down into the canyon with strings of guts and green soup flying everywhere. It hard to find them positioned like that but the two times that I've seen our group do it has been the topic of conversions for years to come.

Good luck in your efforts and let us know how it all comes out.

Thanks teancum. In all honesty, it will probably be at least a year or so before I get the rifle completed. This 7mm rifle will complete a set of 3 varmint/taget rifles I have been planning for quite some time already.(for that "dream PD hunt") Well, it's now 2 rifles down and one to go. First, I built a tac20 for 100-350 yard shots a couple of years back, and I just completed a 22- 6.5x47 Lapua to shoot at 350 to 600 yards in the last month. In fact I was at the range with it today testing first time loads and got it to fire a five shot group of .224 80gr Amax bullets into 5/16" MOA. This muzzle braked 7mmMag varmint rifle will be my extreme range rifle and will be used mostly for firing just a few shots while the other two rifles cool off.

Thanks for your input. I'm also inspired to know that I may have overlooked Rock-Chuck hunting. I need to check into that in case PD shooting in South Dakota is not a possibilty due to a plague, drought, or controlled culling (poisoning)etc.

6flute

What muzzle brake are you going to use??

I bought a updated Vais muzzle brake from the inventor of the Vais muzzle brake, George Vais and put it on a 300 Win Mag with wonderful results. I was shooting a 180g bullet at 3100fps and had daughter in law that wanted to take it elk hunting in Montana. It reduced the recoil down to the 243 level for her and better yet only had an increase of 1-2 decibels which is very unusual in muzzle brakes.

The Vais muzzle brake that is commonly out there is a very old version sold out of Texas, I think. Visit http://www.vaismuzzlebrakes.com/ for the story on these brakes and then contact George at http://www.htgsilencers.com/.

He has done some interesting work with suppressors and I have two of those, one for a .22lr called the Universal and one for a .223 called Aris-4. They are extremely effective and make you giggle when you shoot them.

Give him a look and a call.

6flute

If you decide to try a Idaho Rock Chuck hunt give me a pm and I provide you with some info.

Red mist? Flying down the canyon with strings of guts and green soup flying everywhere? This is a topic of conversation for years to come? It makes you giggle when you shoot one like this? And you guys are getting off on this?

You guys are pathetically and pathologicially sick.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Red mist? Flying down the canyon with strings of guts and green soup flying everywhere? This is a topic of conversation for years to come? It makes you giggle when you shoot one like this? And you guys are getting off on this?

You guys are pathetically and pathologicially sick.

Oh Yeah that's right I forgot. The rockchuck expired quitely and rolled over.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
6flute

What muzzle brake are you going to use??

I bought a updated Vais muzzle brake from the inventor of the Vais muzzle brake, George Vais and put it on a 300 Win Mag with wonderful results. I was shooting a 180g bullet at 3100fps and had daughter in law that wanted to take it elk hunting in Montana. It reduced the recoil down to the 243 level for her and better yet only had an increase of 1-2 decibels which is very unusual in muzzle brakes.

The Vais muzzle brake that is commonly out there is a very old version sold out of Texas, I think. Visit http://www.vaismuzzlebrakes.com/ for the story on these brakes and then contact George at http://www.htgsilencers.com/.

He has done some interesting work with suppressors and I have two of those, one for a .22lr called the Universal and one for a .223 called Aris-4. They are extremely effective and make you giggle when you shoot them.

Give him a look and a call.

I intend to use any of my PD rifles on a portable table. However, in case I do want to set them on the ground, I will be sure to use a muzzle brake that does not emit the gases to the bottom and blow dirt up everywhere. Unless Vais has a new design that I am not aware of, I will not buy it because of this reason. The two muzzle brakes that I have narrowed my choices down to are either the Hollands, or the APS "Pain Killer".

As for silencers, it is a near impossibility in the Houston suburbs where I live. And even if I did want to go through the trouble to try to get one, the lack of privacy is not worth it. We have an enhanced BATF office here in Houston due to border issues. While I am a law abiding citizen with a CHL, and I can fill out yellow forms without a problem, and I have nothing to hide, never-the-less who needs to have agents dropping by my house anytime when and if they feel like it! I still remember the time over 30 years ago when I lived in NYC and the "Son Of Sam" killer went terrorizing the town with a Charter Arms 44 Special. They first came looking for the relatively few residents like me who had a handgun license and a 44 cal revolver that was registered with them. I was at work when the agents went knocking on some other doors looking for me, and the neighbors thought I was a criminal. Screw that! Who needs it.


Thanks for your offer to set me up with info about Rock Chucking. It'll be a while.

Guess the other side of the question is how low of a velocity will a varmint bullet expand and explode as intended...

I can tell you at low velocity, they start to loose their explosiveness and fragility and will penetrate pretty deeply thru wood or on a larger head of game like a deer...

Not to take this thread off topic, but can the shooter actually see the red mist that far away? Or only his buddies looking through a spotting scope? Doesn't the recoil and muzzle blast mask the explosive gymnastics of the PD hit?

The caliber, or more accurately the amount of recoil will be the deciding factor in spotting your own shots. I normally shoot a .204 or a .223AI, and can spot my hits when shots are over 150 yards or so. Possibly I have seen the red mist, but not sure. I have seen what looked like dust fly when i hit them but was not able to tell what color it was, but have seen a lot of pieces fly along with some outstanding aerial acrobatics.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Not to take this thread off topic, but can the shooter actually see the red mist that far away? Or only his buddies looking through a spotting scope? Doesn't the recoil and muzzle blast mask the explosive gymnastics of the PD hit?

well you can normally see the 4 ft flip in the air even if you lost sight picture under recoil...

hit them in the right spot, you can watch them do all sorts of acrobatics...

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Not to take this thread off topic, but can the shooter actually see the red mist that far away? Or only his buddies looking through a spotting scope? Doesn't the recoil and muzzle blast mask the explosive gymnastics of the PD hit?

I'm not sure about the larger cartridges like the 7mm mag and a 120 grain Vmax bullet. But I'm sure most smaller calibers being used in conjunction with a heavy rifle and a good muzzle brake will allow the shooter to see all or most of the action.

While witnessing fine particlized "red mist" is not a real objective with me, seeing the target fragment or "flip 4 feet into the air" (as our buddy Seafire puts it)does make all the difference in the world....instead of seeing absolutely nothing and having to ask somebody "Did I hit it?"

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Not to take this thread off topic, but can the shooter actually see the red mist that far away? Or only his buddies looking through a spotting scope? Doesn't the recoil and muzzle blast mask the explosive gymnastics of the PD hit?

well you can normally see the 4 ft flip in the air even if you lost sight picture under recoil...

hit them in the right spot, you can watch them do all sorts of acrobatics...

It seems like the heavier your varmint rig the more you will be able to see, as far as acrobatics. My .223 must come in at 11-12 pounds and I get to see results on most shots. If using the 22-250 I don't get to see the "up" I usually can catch the "down" but miss 1/2 of the action.

My buddy and I take turns spotting with a 20x60 power Bushnell Elite spotting scope with a 80mm lens. It's almost as much fun as the shooter.

Oh yeah with the PC'ers here none of the above happened and no animals were harmed during the production.

teancum,

I'm hoping that with a 14 lb rifle and a Holland's MB, I'll be alright. Though, I would feel alot safer thinking I could maintain a sight picture on a 22-250, instead of hoping to do it with a 7mm rifle shooting 120 Vmax's at 3,400 FPS.

Your right. Th PC's can be very trying. But, I just chalk it up that they are softies, and very likely to be gun enthusiasts but not hunters. Basically, that kind of shooter DESCRIBES ME. But while they can't seem to help themselves..... I CAN. I know this is NOT the place to get in anybody's face with anti-hunting sentiments. It's uncalled for, as I came here. Nobody, dragged me in.

I confess that while I'm basically a softie too, I can draw the line and know when it's not my place to take issue. The truth is that the only hunting I believe that I could ever do is PD hunting. That's because I have come to relate these otherwise cute little animals with diseaes carrying rodents like rats, as well as their being pests to ranchers and farmers. However, they still do remind me of the pet Gerbils and Hamsters I had when I was a kid. How much of a softie am I? Well.....personally I will NEVER hunt a Coyote or fox as they look too much like man's best friend. (the dog.) Neither will I shoot racoons, possums, bob-cats, deer, bears, etc. I enjoyed watching some of these animals breath, eat, swim, fornicate, or do whatever else I've witnessed them doing in my back yard. I think they are all too advanced with their own behavioral patterns and their own family structures. I'm not even sure I would even feel comfortable shooting woodchucks! They are too big, and look too "pet" to me. BUT, I AM A MEAT EATER. I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE LORD PUT ALL ANIMALS ON THIS PLANET FOR OUR DISCRETION AND USE AS WE SEE FIT. These hunting activities are also controlled by conservation laws so the animal species in question is well watched and protected. SO, I'LL BE DAMNED IF I'M GOING TO COME HERE TO A HUNTING WEBSIGHT and start bitching at everybody what they should or shouldn't be doing or feeling. Shhheesh....

quote:

Originally posted by 6flute:
Guys, I'm trying to figure out about how many yards a 22-250, or 220 Swift (for example) firing say a 55 grain Vmax at 3,600 fps will really "red mist" or fling a small animal like a PD into the air and deliver explosive performance? Or, another way of asking is ....How many yards out is it that the energy drops off and a small animal just more or less gets pushed over to the side, but no longer does the spectacular acrobatics?

What I'm really trying to do is use ballistic charts based on your experience to estimate the necessary energy or speed of a bullet out of my next long-range rifle that wll deliver such performance.

I'm thinking that at 200 yards a 22-250 sends a 55 grain Vmax to a prarie-dog with 981ft.Lbs energy and at 2,835fps. So then.....at 500 yards, will a 7mm mag sending a 120Vmax to a prarie dog at a heftier 1,265 ft.lbs, but at a slower 2,179fps deliver the same acrobatics?

Regarding a red mist viewing: Generally the spotter has the best seat in the house with most rifles not being able to stay on target after firing.
When does the Weatherman call for red mist? Listen to the personal reports of types of varmints (body mass), types of rifles and loads, and distances.
Finally, call someone like Mike Harris (tech guy at Nosler) and pick his brain regarding your caliber, your prey, the ballistic tip, and your distance.

Enjoy!

I remember spotting for my buddy who was shooting a 22-250 at around 275-300 yards at some rockchucks. One old gray muzzled rockchuck had rested just his chin on an old tire that was on top of a rock fence and was enjoying the sun. My buddy's gun probably weighed in at around 10 pounds.

I was watching him through a spotting scope when all of a sudden the thought went through my mind, "What is he doing with that red halo around his head" to be followed, in a nano second, by my buddy's shot. I was laughing my butt off and my buddy was asking what was so funny. Apparently it happens so fast that any recoil movement may prevent you from seeing it but the spotter will be giggling.

Well, I have been using my guns at the 100 yard public firing range for most of my life, and didn't have any hunting experience. I finally got to try out my 22x47L rifle at the 300 yard range last week. I held over 8 1/4" and hit a grape-fruit with a 75 grain Amax at 3,400 FPS and over 1,200 Ft.lbs of energy. The rifle weighs 17 1/4 lbs, but I could NOT see the actual hit. The fruit blew up, and with my 32X Burris scope I DID SEE the pieces coming down all over the place. So now I feel very confident that a muzzle brake will allow me to see the hit. (mainly because the rifle is so heavy at 17 1/4 lbs firing a 22-250 sized cartridge) My rifle will be sent off to Holland's next weeek.

BUT...a 7mmMag rifle shooting a 120gr Vmax bullet??.....hmmm???? I'd be surprised if I can see the hit. That's a much more stout cartridge, and I would expect at least a momentary black-out during recoil. I'd guess that I would have to load up that rifle with 30 pounds of lead. Even a 14 to 17 lb rifle, I doubt a muzzle brake will slow a 7mmMag kick down for me to be able to witness the hit.

But yea....I now have no doubt that a 7mm Mag 120 Grain Vmax bullet will deliver devestating/explosive performance out to 400-500 yards on a rock-chuck sized animal. (even if I will not be able to witness the actual hit)

quote:

More on ricochets, A 22-250 has enough velocity and energy to produce deadly wounds on a human being in excess of 3 miles.

I call BS.

Terminal Range: 3423.3 yd
Terminal Velocity: 339.6 ft/s
Terminal Energy: 12.8 ft•lbs

How is that thing gonna go 2000ish more yards off a ricochet, and how is it going to possibly be deadly?

Geees....don't end your post in a question like that. He might come back to tell you how!

I say "BS" even if it's true. As far as I'm concerned, ANY bullet can richochet. I don't care if you're hunting mountain goat over the valley, or wood chuck at the farm. If you are seeing homes or people just ahead of you in a relatively shallow sight radius, or you are not sure what is just over a short ridge, YOU SHOULDN'T BE SHOOTING!

This hobby ain't needle point. Like operating a vehicle, it does require some common sense and prudence in order to stay out of trouble. If somebody has to tell me that I shouldn't drink and drive, then I'm going to be a loser and a lost cause anyway.

There used to be a video on youtube of some long range chuck shooting with a 6/284. The shots "appeared" to be in the 4-500 yd range. Don't know the bullet or velocity but those chucks were sent about into the air quite spectacularly! If I can find the video, I post a link....

6.5x68 with a 9" twist barrel will lift an Eastern woodchuck high into the air with a big spray of mung at 400+ yards. 100gr. Speer HP @ 3,850fps initial velocity. What the bullet lacks in retained speed, is made up for by the rate of twist. It's still 'trucking', though at about 2,500fps.

the red mist will quit somewhere for nearly all calibers around 500y on p dogs. some calibers a little closer.
last year i shot one at 640 with a 69 gr 6mm and it walked around for a while with a hole in it. my bud then used a 7 mag to pop one on the same hole and it done the same thing, walked 2 circles before dropping. you could see the hole on each side of each of these dogs. i have s 300 mag for long shots that might still lift them at 600, however i dont think it will.
the closest i have used it is 750 and it punches a hole at that range.
he had real good results with 108 gr 6mm bergers at around 400 to 500-lots of doubles flying helicopters. i am going to try the 105 and 108 this year cause of his luck.

I shoot groundhogs. I don't get consistent results as far as launching the critters. I shoot them with everything from a 5.7x28 to a 338 Lapua. I think a fair amount of it has to do with the angle of your shot. Lots of hills where I shoot, and I usually don't get a groundhog to launch unless my target is at the same elevation as me.

I have gotten some real daylight under groundhogs shooting the 338 out to 300 yards. The old, discontinued barnes bullet, either a 160 or 165 grainer was good for about 3650 fps. The biggest lift I ever got was actually a miss. Hit in front of the groundhog with the 338. I think the earth just exploded underneath his feet and he took mr. toad's wild ride.

I do think there is some truth in the statement about tight twist producing results. I pretty much stuck to a 1:7 twist ar-15 this summer and got air more often than when I used a cz 527 bolt action from years past.

I register head splash through the scope shooting a 165 grain Hornady SST out of a 308. It is a heavy rifle, one of those FN "sniper" jobs.