I'm currently having to spend some time in KY and "if" I can find some time, I want to do some Varmint Hunting. The places I grew up Hunting are now subdivisions, so I'm checking some of the remaining farms. Lots have Horses(real $$$HIGH$$$ Horses) and I'm not interested in Ricocheting a Bullet into one of them.

I'll probably be using a 223Rem or a 243Win with very fragile Bullets when I do get to go. Right now I'm thinking the 50gr Speer TNT might be the best Bullet for the 223Rem for Killing Coyote size Varmints down to G-Hogs and not get Ricochets.

Would you recommend something else or would you use the TNT in this situation?

The best buy on the market is still the 34gr. Hp VNM from Mid West.It can accurately be pushed at 4000fps. out of one of my .223s.It may not be the best coyote medicine. I say this because I never used one on a coyote and have had some unusual experiences with that size game and super frangable bullets. What do you think your coyote to ground hog ratio will be in KY.? Rather small I would think. If that be the case go with the best GH bullet. roger

I do a fair amount of shooting on ranches with some high dollar stock on them as well. I do not want to bounce a bullet into a expensive horse or cow.

I have tried about all the varmint stuff out there and my opinion is that the Hornady V-Max line of bullets probably provide the least richochettes of anything out there.

I dearly love the performance of Nosler Ballistic Tips, but with that solid base they do sometimes go zinging off into the next county.

Given the guns you mention, I would try the 40 grain V-Max in the .223 Remington and the 58 grain V-Max in the .243 Winchester. I have shot about a jillion small varmints and a few coyotes with these and they work quite well.

i'd agree with the 40 gr vmax, but the barnes varmint grenade might be the perfect choice

I like the Speer TNT 50 grainer. It seems extremely frangible and I can't remember experiencing a ricochet with it. I also concur that the marvelous Nosler Ballistic Tip, due to its solid base, is subject to an occasional ricochet.

I've never observed a ricochet when using Sierra Blitz Kings...they tend to vaproize as soon as they touch anything in my experience! Especially gophers and other small vermin.

I've never been confronted with your problem so any contribution I make is purely conjecture: I would think that the .243 would be out. Back when coyotes were worth skinning, I tried to find a bullet that I could use in my 22-250 that would stay inside a coyote. I didn't have too much success. Any bullet that would hold together at 22-250 speeds would also pass thru the dog. Back then, I had heard the theory of easing up on the throttle but didn't have the hang of the practical application.
My best success was with a .223 and one of the "blitz" bullets designed for .222 velocities. I've heard of guys shooting them in Swifts and 22-250's but it said on the box not to run them over 3000-3200fps or they would come apart. And they would 'cause I've tried 'em.
So my best "guess" would be to stick with your .223. Use lighter (50gr versus 55gr) hollow point blitz bullets and watch you back drop.
Let's see, at $25.00 a month, how long would it take to pay off a race horse? Maybe Saeed could tell you. He flys his around the world in a 747 so I imagine it'd take a couple of months or more.

Hot Core, you will like the V-Max bullets in either rifle.I have used the Rem bullets and they work too.Good Luck

BlitzKings, Vmaxs, TNT's............no problem!! Hit vermin, release energy, dissapate causing undue tissue damage and and severe "red mist". Noslers "BT'S" on the other hand, give great accuracy but not the afforementioned consistency with the tissue damage and "red mist" factor! Therefore a richochet may be witnessed..................not with the others!!(Shot them all and the VMAXS and BLITZKINGS are the cat's meow for end result when visual effects as well as accuracy is involved!!) Nosler may have made superior hunting bullets long ago...........they were just tying to catch up to SIERRA!! My thoughts! My Opinion! I have one of them too and it's still functioning!!Charlie (GHD)

Thank you to all of you. Charlie had mentioned the VMax and BlitzKings before and I see a lot of you agree with "the Opinion he has which is still functioning".

I may have some of the 50gr Speer TNTs, but I'll need to go on a Search and Rescue mission. And I will be placing an order for some of the VMax and BlitzKing Bullets.

I have some of the 50gr Nosler B-Tips and totally agree with your all's assessment. They are very accurate in my rifle with Benchmark. However, until I try the VMax and BlitzKing Bullets, I won't know if they are not "more accurate". That would be real nice to have the most accurate and most fragile for my situation.
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Mr Flowers, Thanks for mentioning the 58gr VMax for the 243Win, I had no idea a bullet that size existed. Perhaps I need to stick with the 223Rem and focus on direct into the chest, or shoulder-to-shoulder shots, in addition to using the more Fragile Bullets.
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Any opinions on the 50gr Berger? I have a box, but have never tried them yet.
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And I see some of you all lean toward the lighter weight Bullets like the 34gr Hp VNM from Mid West that Bartsche mentioned and the 40gr VMax Bullets. The lighest I've used before now is a 45gr from various makers. Are there any "Tricks of the Trade" with the Light Bullets, or do you load them just as you do the Heavier Bullets?

Thanks for the help. You can teach some old dogs new tricks.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'm currently having to spend some time in KY and "if" I can find some time, I want to do some Varmint Hunting. The places I grew up Hunting are now subdivisions, so I'm checking some of the remaining farms. Lots have Horses(real $$$HIGH$$$ Horses) and I'm not interested in Ricocheting a Bullet into one of them.

I'll probably be using a 223Rem or a 243Win with very fragile Bullets when I do get to go. Right now I'm thinking the 50gr Speer TNT might be the best Bullet for the 223Rem for Killing Coyote size Varmints down to G-Hogs and not get Ricochets.

Would you recommend something else or would you use the TNT in this situation?

Why all the worry about ricochets? Do you miss your target that often?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Any opinions on the 50gr Berger? I have a box, but have never tried them yet.

I've never really noticed any ricoghets using the 50 gr Berger match bullets...but then again, I've only shot at coyotes in the dead of winter when the ground is frozen solid and there was over a foot and a half of snow. I've never tried them on gophers....I did implode a pigeon with one...that was cool!

I use them in my 22-250 and push 'em pretty fast, mostly the reason why I use the match bullets is because they have a bit harder jacket and a much smaller hollow point compared to the 50 gr varmint bullet made by Berger. This IME cuts way down on the amount of fur damage.

My brother has some of the 50 gr varmints by Berger (to load for his .223), but hasn't loaded any to date, so I can't testify to the effectiveness of them, or of their ricochet "factor", but just by looking at the size of the hollow point, I would venture a guess at saying they'd probably disintigrate on contact with whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Why all the worry about ricochets? Do you miss your target that often?

Hey Dave, Legitimate question. I'm more concerned about Ricochets on "pass throughs",that then go off into the wild blue yonder.

But, I'm also concerned about the "possibility" of a miss and subsequent ricochet. The horses are a lot more expensive now than they used to be, and they were not cheap back in the `60s.

A Thoroughbred in Oldham, Co. or a Saddlebred in Shelby, Co. with a broken leg from a G-Hog Hole is still not considered a good way to run a Horse Farm in KY. Word spreads quickly.

I've use the V-Maxes for years on the prairies shooting prairie dogs. Ricochet as never been an issue with them. Besides being a very accurate bullet, they really do a number on smaller furry critters. Good luck on your shoot.

Somebody said not to use a 243........that just made me think back about 30+ years ago when Ray Speer used to make his "GOLD MATCH" bullets. (discontinued about 1977 I think). The 52 grain GOLD MATCH bullets from a 22-250 or a Swift would have no "pass thru".........expended the energy and blew up inside the varmint. The 6mm version (75 grain HP) did pretty much the same deal at 243 Winchester or 6mmRemington velocity(my 243 used to clock 3210fps with 36 grains of IMR 3031). No richochets would be elicited from those little accurate pills if they were still available! I'd buy a pickup load of them if I could find them! Charlie (GHD)

As luck would have it, a new Natchez Flier came in yesterdays mail. Kind of a when looking at all the prices. But, that is the way it is.

Saw all the Bullets you all mentioned. So, I just need to see if they have them in stock.
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Hey CHarlie, Your last post reminded me of another 52gr Speer HP with a relatively w-i-d-e hole Hollow Point. I see one listed as Part# 1035, and that might be it. If it is the same Bullet I'm thinking of, I used to use them in a 22Hornet and they always expanded. I don't remember an Exit with them on Dogs. Been too long to be sure though.

Just flipped through the Speer Manual and 1035 looks just like the Bullet I used to use, with the large hole in the Hollow Point.

They also list a Speer 52gr Match Bullet, but it might not be the same as the Gold Match bullets you are talking about. The Part# is 1036 if you still have any of the old boxes. But even then, things change and it might not be quite the same.
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Thanks for all the first-hand experienced input!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'm more concerned about Ricochets on "pass throughs",that then go off into the wild blue yonder.

Use something like those Speer 50gr TNT's (or Sierra Blitz) and have no worries about pass-through ricochets. I know that Holstein milk cows are not as pricey as race horses, but even so, I never attempt shooting at groundhogs that are in and amongst them in the same pasture. Although those cows vacate the pasture twice a day to be milked, so if the timing's right, those groundhogs can be eventually got too. As for horses, I'd just as soon shoot one of them as a groundhog. I'm so glad I have lived my whole life next to a dairy farm.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'm currently having to spend some time in KY and "if" I can find some time, I want to do some Varmint Hunting. The places I grew up Hunting are now subdivisions, so I'm checking some of the remaining farms. Lots have Horses(real $$$HIGH$$$ Horses) and I'm not interested in Ricocheting a Bullet into one of them.

I'll probably be using a 223Rem or a 243Win with very fragile Bullets when I do get to go. Right now I'm thinking the 50gr Speer TNT might be the best Bullet for the 223Rem for Killing Coyote size Varmints down to G-Hogs and not get Ricochets.

Would you recommend something else or would you use the TNT in this situation?

Why all the worry about ricochets? Do you miss your target that often?

In the cattle business one richoceted bullet can cost you $1000-$1500....what is your acceptable loss ?

TNTs, Vmaxs and Blitz kings have all performed well for us with no richocets.

Take a look at the sierra 60 grain hollow point for your 243.

Hot Core, The 52 grain Speer Hp is not the same bullet as the 52 grain GOLD MATCH HP of 30+ years ago. The 52 grain HP were available way back when but the GOLD MATCH was a different beast. How was it different? Just plain darn more explosive! All the Speer HP bullets have an exceptionally large HP exposed (except for the "TNT's" of today) and they all blow up fairly well(100 grain SPEER HP in .257 from a 25-06 at about 3200 or 75 grain SPEER HP from a 243 or 6mm at about 3200 render a varmint quite dead and quite "open for pickin" from the buzzards!) but they are not the GOLD MATCH bullets of yesteryear! And their B.C. pretty much sucks as compared to the pretty little plastic tipped bullets of today. But they kill very effectively!! Charlie (GHD)

I have shot the Barnes varmint grenades out of my .204 Ruger and they are very accurate. They are extremely explosive, so much so that the 6mm bullet completely dissenigrates in a cherry tomato. They have a video on their website. The price isn't really that bad.

Hi HC,

I'm not sure about the bullet, but I do agree with you about not shootin somthin you can't afford the license fee for....ha ha ha ha.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'm currently having to spend some time in KY and "if" I can find some time, I want to do some Varmint Hunting. The places I grew up Hunting are now subdivisions, so I'm checking some of the remaining farms. Lots have Horses(real $$$HIGH$$$ Horses) and I'm not interested in Ricocheting a Bullet into one of them.

I'll probably be using a 223Rem or a 243Win with very fragile Bullets when I do get to go. Right now I'm thinking the 50gr Speer TNT might be the best Bullet for the 223Rem for Killing Coyote size Varmints down to G-Hogs and not get Ricochets.

Would you recommend something else or would you use the TNT in this situation?

Normally I have Hot Sh#t on ignore but unfortunately the first post of a new thread is not blocked.

He's concerned about "pass throughs" with a 223 or 243 on coyote sized varmints down to G-hogs" using a 50grain Speer TNT!!!!!! Sounds more like a cover up to opnefunzr2's question about a lot of missing going on. A TNT will blow up on a twig let alone a coyote sized varmints down to G-hogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shows you how much knowledge and EXPERIENCE he has when it comes to varmint shooting and the associated loads. Pathetic!!!! Yet he comes on this board with lectures and hopes that people will hurt themselves with some of the loads. Even more pathetic!!!!!!!!!!

I have a couple of buddies that have had too many Barnes VG pinhole and keep going and they no longer use them. I have not had that issue myself, but they don't shoot as well in my guns so I stick to v-max and tnt. I would not worry about any of them, myself. I don't have a problem shooting the s**t with any member of this forum, that actually is a gun owner/supporter if they are posting nicely, which is the case in this thread.

This has been an informative thread for me as well. I have been shooting the 40g Nosler BT in my CZ527. Seated 0.020" off the lands pushed by 28.0g of AA2460 lit by a CCI400 it will shoot 3 shot groups into a slightly slightly larger than caliber hole if I do my part. Terminal performance is usually explosive but I "have" seen them come out the other side of a GH so I must agree they aren't the best choice.

When my supply of loaded ammo runs out I'll switch to the 40g V-MAX. I'll need to test them - hopefully they shoot with about the same accuracy.

I have had accuracy issues with the 36g Varmint Grenade. After 120 rounds of load testing spanning 6 powders I haven't been able to get them to shoot under an inch in my .223. It just plain won't shoot those bullets. I consider 1/2" accuracy to be the max average group size for shooting GH out to 300 yards.

That said, if I had to choose between a .223 and a .243 for the horse farm situation I definitely go with the .223. The .243, even with 58g bullets, is way more gun that needed for GH in areas where the collateral damage risk is high.

That said, if a different rifle was an option, I'd go for a .17 Fireball or .17 Ackly Hornet. Shooting the 17g or 20g V-max one would be shooting the most ricochet free bullets on the planet, and either cartridge can take GH out to 240 yards and beyond if there isn't too much wind.

Fitch

Hey Moorepower, I appreciate the info on the VGs. Since I consider them Politically Correct Bullets, I'd not be buying them anyhow. But the information is certainly appreciated. I know some folks have good accuracy with them from other posts on the Reloading Board, Bartsche in particular. Thank you.
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Hey Fitch, I've used the "TNTs" a long time, as should have been in the original post, but some of my habits are old and I thought there might be something better. I've received lots of great info in the thread and will be trying those recommendations as I have time.

The 17cal you mentioned is indeed interesting. Looks like a lot of extremely well designed, well balanced Cartridges are now making themselves available. Always enjoy reading those threads. Only problem is my "old" fingers do well to hang onto a 22cal Bullet during Reloading. I tend to get a good bit of unexpected exercise retrieving them from where ever they head off to.

I'll defer to your knowledge about the 17cal. I can see where you would be right, but just have no experience there at all.

Appreciate the input. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by R Flowers:
I do a fair amount of shooting on ranches with some high dollar stock on them as well. I do not want to bounce a bullet into a expensive horse or cow.

I have tried about all the varmint stuff out there and my opinion is that the Hornady V-Max line of bullets probably provide the least richochettes of anything out there.

+1

For overall price and performance in many different rifles, I haven't been able to beat it. Are some more accurate? Yes. Are some cheaper? Yes. More destructive and better at minimizing ricocheting? Not that I've found.

Hey Kenati, Thank you. Looks like the V-Max is a favorite of the Board. I'f they shoot as well as my inexpensive 50gr Rem PLHPs, I'll be real happy.