Wow, good stuff guys. Fiftydriver, my experience with the 20 calibers is a little different than yours, at least on the smaller prairie dog sized critters. I've found the V-max 33 to be stunningly effective out of my 20's out to at least 400 yards, fully on par with the Vmax 224/40 out of a 223-size case. But with flatter trajectory, less wind deflection, and more importantly to me, significantly less recoil. In fact, just a few days ago I hit a couple of PD's at over 500 and they were stopped instantly....

I usually shoot PD's off the hood of my Jeep, and it's a bouncy platform at best. I can spot my hits (and misses) much easier than with a 223, even a fairly heavy one. Of course, I could simply go to a really heavy rifle or a brake to tame the big 22's, but I have no interest in going that direction for my style of shooting. As many varminters are finding out, the small calibers are simply more fun to shoot!

One particular PD trip from last summer comes to mind. At the time I was shooting a Sako 75 with a 22" K&P barrel chambered for the 20 VarTarg Turbo. I was fireforming cases, running the vmax 33 at around 3800 fps. The wind was just howling that day, and I was picking apart this group of mounds at 375 yards. My hit percentage was much higher than it had any right to be with the wind, but once I found the holdover a dog flew with nearly every shot. I was having to hold into the wind somewhere around 2 feet or more if I recall, but the point is that I was able to quickly adjust my point of aim to get on those dogs because I could easily see my misses. And the performance left nothing to be desired, my buddy kept hooting and hollering with every hit, as the dogs were being tossed with authority. Even surprised me a little. That is just one example out of many such experiences.

I have tested the BC of the Vmax 33 many times, and it always averages in the .210 to .220 range at 3800 to 4200 fps. The new 32 averaged .219 the one time I tested it. I've always found Hornady's published BC's to be conservative on their small caliber stuff. The new .204/40 vmax came in at a whopping .288! Plug that into your ballistics program at around 38-3900 out of a Tac 20 or .204.

My gunsmith, Greg Tannel, has killed a truckload of coyotes with his Tactical 20 and the vmax 33, and at long range. He has always been impressed with it's killing power that is seemingly out of proportion to it's size. The ones I've shot have likewise dropped instantly with any solid hit.

I don't really see the bigger 20's as gopher guns either, they're too big! I much prefer something that burns no more than maybe 18 grains of powder, and really the Hornet based 17's and 19's are even better for moderate ranges out to at least 250 yards. They can be shot almost continuously without turning the barrel into a branding iron, and of course the low recoil and report is nice...

It's nice to hear of other experiences, keep 'em coming.

Dan C

Anyone have any pet loads for the .204 ruger yet?



Thanks,

John



white oak armament

.204 RUGER
CASE: HORNADY

BBL: 24"
PR: FEDERAL 205M

TWIST: 1:12" TRIM: 1.840"

32 GR. HDY V-MAX (Starting Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.250" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 27.0 3557 38,300 PSI
BL-C(2) 28.5 3772 43,000 PSI
H335 26.0 3703 40,600 PSI
H4895 27.0 3669 40,500 PSI
Benchmark 26.0 3770 45,500 PSI
H322 25.5 3826 48,300 PSI

32 GR. HDY V-MAX (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.250" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 29.0C 3798 47,400 PSI
BL-C(2) 30.7 4081 55,500 PSI
H335 28.3 4044 54,800 PSI
H4895 29.0C 3980 51,100 PSI
Benchmark 28.0 4047 57,100 PSI
H322 27.5 4030 56,400 PSI


32 GR. BER HP (Starting Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.240" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 28.0 3705 48,300 PSI
BL-C(2) 28.5 3734 47,200 PSI
H335 25.5 3665 45,400 PSI
H4895 26.0 3576 42,200 PSI
Benchmark 25.0 3590 44,100 PSI
H322 24.0 3586 45,600 PSI

32 GR. BER HP (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.240" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 29.0C 3812 53,100 PSI
BL-C(2) 30.7 3973 54,900 PSI
H335 27.5 3915 56,600 PSI
H4895 28.2C 3910 55,700 PSI
Benchmark 26.6 3863 56,600 PSI
H322 26.3 3828 55,400 PSI


40 GR. HDY V-MAX (Starting Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.250" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 26.0 3395 44,100 PSI
BL-C(2) 28.0 3569 47,300 PSI
H335 25.0 3508 47,300 PSI
H4895 26.0 3500 45,500 PSI
Benchmark 24.0 3419 45,200 PSI
H322 23.0 3319 41,500 PSI

40 GR. HDY V-MAX (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.250" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 28.1C 3647 55,100 PSI
BL-C(2) 30.0 3774 56,200 PSI
H335 26.8 3738 56,700 PSI
H4895 27.7C 3741 56,000 PSI
Benchmark 25.7 3646 55,400 PSI
H322 25.1 3639 55,900 PSI


50 GR. BER HP (Starting Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.300" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 24.0 3071 44,900 PSI
BL-C(2) 25.0 3089 42,900 PSI
H335 22.5 3039 43,700 PSI
H4895 24.0 3167 46,900 PSI
Benchmark 22.5 3110 47,800 PSI
H322 22.0 3105 48,300 PSI

50 GR. BER HP (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.300" Powder Charge (grs.) Velocity (fps) Pressure
Varget 26.0 3287 55,200 PSI
BL-C(2) 27.0 3334 54,500 PSI
H335 24.3 3268 54,700 PSI
H4895 25.7 3352 56,000 PSI
Benchmark 24.0 3256 54,300 PSI
H322 23.5 3252 55,100 PSI

C = Compressed Charge

I have some more in PDF format. Send me an e-mail.

So basically we are dealing with a skinnier bulletted version of the same old 223 Rem!

My favorite varminting loads in my 223 Rem is:

27.5 gr H-335
CCI-400
40 gr BlitzKing

Ave. Velocity: 3765 fps w/ 24" barrel, 3810 fps w/ my 26"

I am not downing the 204 as a new and interesting cartridge, but is anyone still buying the publicity it was getting touting it to provide 220 Swift velocity and trajectory with the barrel life and economy of loading like the 223.

From what I have seen from some serious handloading data, out to 300 yards, which is as far is any of the 223 parent case class rounds are truely effective to, it only offers a bit higher velocities with lighter bullets which have poor B.C. numbers.

Like I said, I give Ruger credit for releasing a new option to varmint hunters, but this one has been blown a little out of porportion to its true abilities in my mind.

I will stick to my 223's with the never ending supply of mtch quality bullets and if I need more reach and power, I will switch to my 22-250, 22-250 AI or Swift.

This is what 204 shooters will do as well for those 400-500 yard shots.

Just my opinion!

Good Shooting!!!

50

The 204 is not loaded to 52000 CUP or 65000 psi by the above loads guy. They are all below that. I have more loads that do brake 4200 fps.

Without doubt POP those are safe and sane loads that show your a prudent reloader.
I love .223's and have several so this certainly isn't a "mines better than yours" deal, but my Tactical .20 isn't even in the same class as the .223 when it comes to full house loads on thinned skinned varmints (gophers, p-dogs, rock chucks).
I was at the range Sunday and shooting a 33 grain V-Max at 4,200fps+ sighted in at 2 inches at 100 I'm dead on at 300 and 6 inches low at 400. That's .220 Swift all day long! Really smacks a rat!

Pop,

I do not mean to ruffle your feathers, just stating a point. Take the 32 gr V-Max with its B.C. of .185 and drive it to a full 4300 fps which is well over factory specs.

With a 200 yard zero, here is the trajectory of that load:

100 yards: +0.6"
200 yards: 0.0
300 yards: -4.3"


Now take a 223 with a 40 gr Ballistic Tip driven to 3800 fps with the same 200 yard zero. This bullet has a B.C. in the .220 range. Here is its trajectory:

100 yards: +0.9"
200 yards: 0.0
300 yards: -5.2"


Yes, at midrage, the 204 shoots roughly 1/3" flatter, meaningless. At 300 yards the 223 will land a dramatic 0.9" lower then the 204, again totally meaningless.

What does interest me though is energy. Many feel bullet kenetic energy is meaningless but in varminting, it is kenetic energy that causes a bullet to rapidly expand. The more the energy for a given bullet design, the more violent the expansion will be.

At 300 yards the 204 bullet will be packing a bit over 460 ft/lbs of energy, while the lowly 223 will have a bit over 530 ft/lbs or roughly 14% more energy then the 204.

Anyone that has hunted with the 17 know that the very high velocity is not what causes the dramatic varmint explosions. It is high velocity combined with energy and bullet weight.

This is also why the 22 Mag is a better choice for larger varmints then the 17 HMR.

Sure the heavier bullets will increase the energy numbers and longer range performance of the 204 but will they compare to a fast twist 223 using bullet such as the 75 gr A-Max? I think never.

Again, do not get me wrong, it is a neat and useful varmint round, it is not nor will it ever be anything near the 22-250 or the 220 and in reallity, it is a newer, flashier version of the 223 Rem.

If one does not own a 223 it would be a decent choice for a high volume light varmint rifle once the componants become easy to get in large volume. If you already have a 223, the only reason to get a 204 is to play with the new round, which is never a bad reason to get a new rifle.

Now if you could get those 50gr .204" bullet to +4000 fps, we would have something to talk about as far as comparing to the 22-250 and 220, but we are not quite there.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Mountdog,

How are you getting an even 6" low at 400 yards with a 33 gr V-Max launched at 4200 fps or even 4300 fps when zeroed an even 2" high at 100 yards.

From what I have seen with that bullet and those velocities, you should be landing in the 8.5" to 9" low range at 400 yards.

Pretty close still. My problem with your comments on how that is "220 Swift performance all day long" is to look at the energy numbers.

The 204 is packing around 326 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards when launching a 33 gr bullet at 4200 fps. The swift will pretty well doubt that with either a 50 or 55 gr bullet.

So while trajectory is close, the comment of "Smacking rats" is a completely different experience between the 204 and the 220 Swift or 22-250 AI.

Sure it shoots pretty flat but a 22-250, 22-250 AI or 220 swift will flat lift a P. dog and throw it several yards if it does not make it flat disintegrate on impact. Where as a 19-223 Calhoon, 204 Ruger, 20 Tac and 223 will definately know them over, maybe even throw them off a mound a foot or two, but do not even compare to the teminal performance of the larger rounds.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fiftydriver, what kind of .20 do you shoot?

Thanks for the info, about what I suspected, a case full of any good medium burning powder oughta do the trick. I think I'll have to try RL-15 with the heavier bullets.

Thanks,
John

Montdoug,

I do not own a 20 but have developed loads for both the 20 Tac as well as the 19-223 Calhoon which is extremely similiar.

They are all great rounds, I just feel they have been made out to be something they are not, which is not only bad for the round itself but also for the new shooters thinking they are getting one thing and finding out they want more.

Heres an example of how I see the 19 and 20 caliber rounds. Just this morning, about 30 minutes ago, I was watching the morning news getting ready to head over to the shop to finish up a couple rifles for customers and noticed a large coyote running across out hay field.

I take every chance to thin the yote population so I jumped up and threw a coat and boots on(we got 2" of snow last night!) and grabbed the 223 that was sitting by the back door from an earlier adventure with a very large badger that had been excavating all over hell, thats another story though.

I grabbed the rifle and headed out to try to get a shot at the yote. From earlier ranging of the irrigation ditches on our place I knew the dog was roughly 325 yards out and for some reason he had stopped and turned around.

Knowing that this rifle/load combo has about 6" of drop at that range with its +1" high sight in at 100 yards, I took the proper hold and let one of the little 40 gr Blitzkings go.

When I found the dog in the scope he was flat on the ground. When I got up to the yote I found the little 40 gr bullet had broken the onside shoulder on impact, no doubt helping drop the critter in its tracts as well as having enough energy left to destroy some major vitals.

Would the 204 or 20 Tac or 19-223 Calhoon do the same thing, you bet they would but would I have taken the shot with one of those, Can't say for sure. More then likely I would have gotten in the safe for my predator calling rifle in 22-250 with its 40 gr Ballistic Tip at 4200 fps.

This is all I am saying, as far as on game performance, the 20's are much closer to the 223 class rounds then anything else.

In big game hunting, I feel kenetic energy is rather meaningless. In varmint hunting it plays a dramatic role in quickly and violently dispatching of lighter game. Higher energys combined with properly designed bullet are what it takes to get that classic "pop" of a varmint.

Along with these two things are bullet weight. If you take two bullets, say a 32 gr .204" V-Max and a 50 gr .224" V-Max and drive them both to 4000 fps which is easy to do out of the larger rounds in each caliber class.

They will both expand roughly at the same rate, the difference is that the 50 gr bullet has much greater energy which is transferred to the thinskinned, light bodied target. Along with that when a the two bullets come apart on impact, the much heavier 50 gr bullet releases alot more bullet material into the target, cutting, pulling, crushing and driving more tissue out of its way creating a more dramatic result on impact.

Comparing the 20 calibers to the larger 22 rounds on game the size of gophers and P. dogs is to a point cutting hairs, I agree, but so is comparing a 40 gr loaded 223 to a 55 gr loaded 22-250 out to 300 yards.

Past 300 yards, the 20's and 223 are still able to hit small targets, they just loose alot of energy at those ranges and those flips at 200 yards become knock overs at 350.

Whereas, the 22-250 and 220 class rounds will flip and thow well out past 400 yards and with the proper load out to 500 yards simply because of the higher energy load on target.

For larger game such as coyotes and such, the 20's and 223 are fine out to 300 yards still but I would only use the heavier 20 caliber bullets for such work and then you start looseing velocity and trajectory becauase we need the higher energy and sectional density to the heavier bullets to penetrate game the size of coyotes.

The 223 is no better then the 20's for these size targets especially with the 40 gr bullets at 300 yards but sadly, this particult 223 will not shoot the heavier bullets accurately.

All I am saying is that while they are gret rounds, they are not a wonder round as published. You can not get 220 swift performance, and when I say performance, it meanas a hell of alot more then trajectory and muzzle velocity remember, you can not get that performance with 32-40 gr bullets and 23-28 gr or powder.

Like all sub caliber rounds, they are very effective on small game but in my mind at least loose most of their usefullness once game gets up over 20 lbs and ranges reach 300 yards.

To answer your question if I haven't already, I do not own a 20. I do own a 17 and it is a fun round to play with especially with the 20 gr V-Max which I load to 4400 fps. This load, when sighted in 2" high at 100 yards will hit dead on at 300 and be only around 7.5" load at a quarter mile.

This bullet has the exact same B.C. numbers as the 33 gr V-Max so they will fly identically as far as drop and wind drift goes. Even though it will shoot this falt, it is pretty much useless at 400 yards as energies have dropped to a tick over 200 ft lbs. and wind drift is unpredictable enough to make hits at those ranges very tricky even with a rifle that will shoot sub 1/2 moa groups at 100 yards.

For that reason, I sight in this rifle 3/4" high at 100 yards which puts it around 4" low at 300 yards. This is a very useful sightin for its effective range as I do not have to aim much off hair out to a full 300 yards.

If I did own a 19 or 20 caliber round, it would be loaded up and sighted in the same way, to take advantage of its effective range, roughly 300 yards.

You also need to understand, when I say effective range, I do not mean the max range that I could hit a varmint, I mean the range at which the round has the ablility to positively anchor the varmint instantly. Alot of varmint hunters do not mind seeing a P. Dog drag itself to its burrow to die a slow death.

Varmint hunters still need ethics and that is my basis for effective range and one reason I feel all sub caliber rounds are inferior to a good 22 caliber round.

To to finish, I do think they are effective rounds, I just feel they have been labeled something that they are not even close to being, I guess its all in the name of selling rifles and ammo. 223 ammo is very cheap and the ammo makers need a hot new round to push so they can make more money doing the same ole thing.

This is just what I have seen from the 19's and 20's in the field honestly and objectively testing them next to the popular 22 caliber rounds, inside 300 yards on a calm day, I will give you they are damn close on light varmint targets. In longer range, or windier conditions or on larger varmints, they do not even start to compare to the 22-250 and 220 swift class. That is why I do not have a need for one with my 17, two 223's, two 22-250's, 22-250 AI and 220 Swift.

Good Shooting!!

50
Good Shooting!!

Fiftydriver you make some excellent points and not points I'd argue with however I think your lack of hands on experience with the .204 or the Tactical .20 have possibly given you a bit of a handicap when assessing the rounds. Ballistic charts don't always show the true meassure of a rounds performance, ask the guys that shoot a 6.5X55 or a 7X57.
On a different thread a while back I posted my opinion of the hot .20's and was clear they aren't the end all do all perfect round, I personally don't believe there is one and they aren't it either. If there was an end all do all round guys like us wouldn't need multiple gun safes. Having said that I'd like to mention a few issues. Firstly I've read several shooting tests by small caliber writer types who in their tests got a BC on the 33 grain .20 cal V-Max around .210ish. But leaving it at .187 I pulled up some data on my ballistics program showing the working load I shoot in my Tactical .20 and have chrono'd a number of timer on an Oehler 35P I posted it below. That isn't however how I came by my opinions, I have one I shoot it alot and both on the range and in the field it is a real performer.
Also I believe you missed my stating that to me my Tact.20 is at it's best on gophers, p-dogs and rock chucks. I am in total agreement that even rodents deserve a quick end and we need to be responsible in hunting them. Read the data, you'll see that at 400 yards it's packing more than 425 ft lbs of energy, at 500 it's got over 300 ft lbs and is moving at 2,050, that's more than a .22 mag at the muzzle, will a .22mag effectively kill a p-dog if you put the muzzle against it's body?
One of the most appealing aspects of the sub calibers and the .20's in particular is their effeciency. My Tact.20 load is 24.2 grain H4198 in an IMI case with a 33 V-Max and a 7 1/2 BR for 4,250ish. When shooting this load with a 6X20 scope recoil doesn't take you off the target, you see your hits, big advantage on colony rodents. I can't do that with .22-250's or even my .223's.

You really need to take one p-dog hunting it's a lot different in the field then on paper. These hot .20's really smack rats!
One last personal experience. I shoot a lot at our local range and on several occasions guys I don't even know hear how fast a bullet hits the gong at 300 or 400 yards and come over to ask you what the heck your shooting. I let em shoot it and to a man they are totally impressed with lack of recoil, accuracy and how quick it all happens. Buddies that have shot it on rats to a man want one.
Is it the end all do all round? No. Will I ever be without one in my varmint gun battery? Absolutely not!





~~~~~~~~

Name: Tactical .20 33grain V-Max
Ballistic Coeff: 0.187
Bullet Weight: 33
Velocity: 4250
Target Distance: 300
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 4800

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 4250 fps 1323 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.47 in 4109 fps 1237 fpe 0.018 sec 0.06 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.43 in 3971 fps 1156 fpe 0.037 sec 0.25 in -0.54 in 0.21 in
75 yds 1.19 in 3839 fps 1080 fpe 0.056 sec 0.58 in -0.45 in 0.49 in
100 yds 1.81 in 3710 fps 1008 fpe 0.076 sec 1.06 in -0.32 in 0.88 in
125 yds 2.26 in 3585 fps 942 fpe 0.096 sec 1.69 in -0.15 in 1.40 in
150 yds 2.55 in 3464 fps 879 fpe 0.117 sec 2.49 in 0.07 in 2.03 in
175 yds 2.66 in 3346 fps 820 fpe 0.139 sec 3.47 in 0.34 in 2.80 in
200 yds 2.57 in 3232 fps 765 fpe 0.162 sec 4.65 in 0.68 in 3.72 in
225 yds 2.28 in 3121 fps 713 fpe 0.186 sec 6.04 in 1.08 in 4.78 in
250 yds 1.76 in 3012 fps 665 fpe 0.210 sec 7.64 in 1.55 in 5.96 in
275 yds 1.01 in 2906 fps 619 fpe 0.236 sec 9.48 in 2.10 in 7.31 in
300 yds 0.00 in 2803 fps 576 fpe 0.262 sec 11.58 in 2.73 in 8.83 in
325 yds -1.30 in 2702 fps 535 fpe 0.289 sec 13.97 in 3.47 in 10.54 in
350 yds -2.89 in 2604 fps 497 fpe 0.318 sec 16.65 in 4.30 in 12.42 in
375 yds -4.78 in 2507 fps 461 fpe 0.347 sec 19.64 in 5.25 in 14.45 in
400 yds -7.02 in 2413 fps 426 fpe 0.377 sec 22.97 in 6.32 in 16.70 in
425 yds -9.65 in 2320 fps 394 fpe 0.409 sec 26.69 in 7.53 in 19.17 in
450 yds -12.71 in 2230 fps 364 fpe 0.442 sec 30.84 in 8.90 in 21.90 in
475 yds -16.21 in 2142 fps 336 fpe 0.477 sec 35.43 in 10.44 in 24.86 in
500 yds -20.17 in 2055 fps 309 fpe 0.512 sec 40.47 in 12.15 in 28.03 in

MontDoug,

You also bring up very solid, obviously educated points and data to support your claim which I really can not argue about.

I also agree that I do not have near the hand on experience that you do with the 20 cailber rounds but I have witnessed them in the field on game from gophers up to chucks. In fact the one customer I developed loads for his 20 Tac wanted to test the rifle on varmints after he came up to the shop and we tested the rifle on target to make sure he was happy with the 1/2 moa groups it was shooting at 100 yards.

I have several places here west of Great Falls that I varmint hunt for everything from gophers to P. dog and chucks.

We planned a saturday morning hunt the next weekend so he could see what his big 20 would do on game. The morning we left, I was deciding what rifles to take and settled on a little Howa 1500 heavy barrel in 223 what I had tuned up and restocked. This is also the same rifle used to take care of that yote in my earlier post. I also grabbed my Ruger M77VT which I had just blueprinted and rechambered for the hot 22-250 AI.

Anyway, I felt this rifle would be a good one to shoot along side the 20 for comparision with its 40 gr Blistzking loaded to a tick over 3800 fps. The 22-250 AI was loaded with the 50 gr BSTip to 4150 fps.

We got out to my hunting areas and quickly started hammering gophers at will. I let my customer burn up some ammo first and his 20 did do extremely well as I do not think he missed more then a few times in the almost 100 rounds he fired by noon. In the area we were in the shooting was limited to just over 200 yards because of the lay of the land.

My little 223 was perfect but I have to admit I only shot 48 rounds and all shots were in the 100 to 200 yard range, not much of a test for sure. At these ranges, I did not even get teh 22-250 AI out of the case.

We had lunch and cleaned the rifles and he asked if I had any place to shoot p. dogs at longer ranges. We loaded up and drove around 15 miles to my p. dog hunting area. One can shoot out to 600 yards at this place and he was very excited to let the 20 run.

I basically spotted for the first little while to help the fellow get his long range legs going. He took several shots at the 300 to 350 yard range and did very well once he go the hold correct.

it always amazes me how much varmint hunters over correct for long range shooting and 90% of the time over shoot their targets. I told him that on a p. dog that is out there in the 350 yard range, only hold on the top body line and not off fur. If they are standing up, put the hairs on teh head and squeeze.

Once he got this figured out he was hitting very consistantly but at these ranges the p. dogs would simply fall over. Still dead but nothing dramatic.

We wanted to try for farther ranges so we found some dogs in the 400-425 range. Here his hit/miss ratio really evened out which is common. He did get several hits but of those any that were soft body hits resulted in the critter being able to crawl away.

I decided to get teh 22-250 AI out as he was also interested in having one of these built as well. Again it too a little while for him to figure out the rifle but once he did anything under 500 yards was either hit or covered with alot of dirt.

The first dog he hit with the 22-250 AI was sitting on its mound at a bit over 400 yards. the hit must have been pretty centered because the dog just flat out popped. I have added weight to this rifle so it really moves very little under recoil and the guy could not believe the results.

He shot the 20 and the 22-250 AI off and on at the p. dogs and basically had the same hit ratio with both but it was dramatic the diffence on impact.

It was getting to be late afternoon now so we headed back to the shop. He asked me if I would take him after some chucks and so the next morning he came out again as I was just as curious as to how the 20 would perform on them.

In my chuck hunting areas, you can hunt them two different ways, either get up in the rocks with them and kind of spot and stalk them or you can sit off a good distance and snipe then from +400 yards. Anything much closer and they can see you and just go down till you leave.

We decided to crawl up into the rocks and I took him to a spot which overlooked a very nice rocky draw roughly 200 yards across.

We quickly spotted a chuck and he set up for the shot which he made a perfect head shot which of course ended things very quick.

After about 20 minutes another chuck appeared a bit further off. I ranged him at 370 yards and instructed the guy to wait for the shot as the chuck was wondering away from his den which would help us anchor him before he got away after a hit.

having hunted and killed more chucks then I care to admit, I know one thing, they, along with Badgers are the cape buffalo of the varmint world. Hit them right and they die just like everything else. Make a poor placed shot and you will loose them 100% of the time. I'm only glad those two critters only get up to the 15 lb range for chucks and 20 or so for badgers.

Anyway, the chuck was a big one, probably in the 12 lb class and was now about 25 yards from his den so I told the shooter to go ahead when ready. At the shot the chuck went limp, but there was no classic tail wipping that a DEAD chuck will show. Within seconds, the chuck was up and scooting back to his den dragging his rear legs.

The guy tried to hit the chuck with two more shots but hitting a moving chuck at nearly 400 yards is a little difficult. I even let a round off with my favorite chuck rifle, a tuned up 25-06 with the 100 gr Ballstic Tip loaded to 3500 fps, but missed just as he hit the den.

The customer was more upset about not being able to get a photo of the kill then anything. I quickly decided to look for chucks under 200 yards away.

We found several in the next couple hours and he made killing shots on all of them. Then we hit a dry spell which is common in the middle of the day as the chucks stop moving and you have to find them sunning motionless on the rocks.

I found another one again at longer ranges, this one was I believe a tick over 350 yards. The shooter got lined up on him and I instructed him to really concentrate on a chest or head shot. to stop the chuck quickly. At the shot the bullet landed just an inch or so under the edge of the rock the chuck was sleeping on.

The chuck jumped stratight up for a much better shot for the second round. He put the hairs on the top of the chucks head as he was sitting now and let one go. The chuck roled back out of sight and was sure he was stone dead. Within seconds the chuck was running up the rock slide at what looked to be full speed. He traveled about 20 yards and then slowed and rolled back down the slope.

We walked over to the dead chuck and found he had hit the chuck just perfect in teh chest but the damage was very minimal and had the chucks den been a few yards closer we would have lost that chuck as well.

We spent the rest of the day using my 25-06 and we both made several hits in the 500-600 range literally flipping the chucks off the rock piles they were sitting on.

So yes, I do not have alot of experience with the 20's. I have though shot dozens of rounds on paper and over the chronograph testing and developing loads and witnesses 150 or so rounds fired on game in the field at ranges from 50 yards out to nearly 400 yards and this is what I have seen.

First as a gopher gun, the 20 may be as close to a perfect, high performance, high volume round as there is. It isn't quite as sure friendly as the 222, 223 class roudns as far as bore fouling and it isn't quite up to the on game performace of the larger 22, but it is very good at all things concerning gophers out to even 400 yards.

On P. dogs, I would say it is equally effective but only out to 300 yards or so. Much after that, you better get an upper body hit to anchor the dog, if you care about such things, I do.

On larger varmints such as chucks, badgers and coyotes. I list these together even though their body weights vary alot, they are all equally hard to kill quickly. I would say the 20's are fully up to the challange out to 200 yards. With a proper head chest shot the 20 will easily kill these critters out to 300 yards and even further.

Problem is that unless you get a head shot, you will not stop a chuck before it gets to its den, same with a badger. Coyotes are not as bit of a deal because they have a much larger chest vital zone as well as generally they are no where near their den when they are shot at. It is no big deal to let a yote run 100 yards after a chest shot, you will still get him. Chucks and badges, you will loose a very high percentage of the time.

I have not based my opinions on what I have read, as an experienced shooter, loader, gunsmith and hunter, I take a little pride in my personal knowledge then that. Also, I have to give my customers educated facts because it I do not it will bite me in the rear every time with lost business.

So I agree the 20's have their place, on lighter varmints, they can be used on larger varmints if range is limited and shot placement is precise. As you said, they are not the end all of all rifles, they are good gopher and p. dog rifles and that is all I will recommend to my customers.

This is a good debate, both sides respectfully giving their facts and data, its very useful to do this I feel especially with new rounds!

Good Shooting!!

50

DanC,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of the 20's.

Let me say I fully stated that I have a relatively limited data base with these rounds but the loads I have witnessed are damn near exactly what those of you that praise the 20's are using.

Accuracy is great and I agree recoil is a bit lower then the 223 class but if you drive a 40 gr .204 bullet to 3800 fps and compare its recoil to a 40 gr 223 load of the same velocity, the recoil energy will be basically the same. The only reason recoil is different with the 20 calibers is because bullet weight is less and I would say rifle weight will make a bigger difference in recoil then the differences in these rounds.

As I have said all along, I agree these rounds are also fully on par with the 223 class of rounds but nothing near the large 22 calibers rounds. By large 22 rounds I mean 22-250 and up, I do not consider the 223 as a large 22 round.

While I hear alot of guys saying the 20's are flat out amazing and perform far better then their size would make us think, it brings me back to the stories, some true, some false and some flat out stupid of the amazing power of the 17 caliber rounds.

For years the 17 was the new wonder caliber until shooters actually got the things in large numbers and found their advantages were not what they were reading about and that they had some very serious draw backs and needed serious attention to get to work at a high level of performance.

The 204's have come around to split the difference between the 17 and the 22 rounds. They shoot flatter and recoil less then the 223, while hitting harder and burning cleaner then the 17 rem class rounds.

Living here in Montana where the wind always blows I still hold to my very educated opinion that they will work out to 300 yards effectively in the wind on lighter varmints up to P dogs. On heavier game, such as chucks and yote, I would not use them much past 250 yards.

Thats just my opinion from what I have seen in the field from solid vital hits on light and heavy varmints. This is also the advise I give my customers. I am more then willing to build them a custom 20 caliber rifle that will shoot well under 1/2 moa on average, but if it were up to me, if I knew I would be shooting out past 400 yards, my minimum load would use a 50 gr Ballistic Tip at at least 3900 fps and I would prefer a heavier, longer bullet.

For shooting past 400 yards, I feel a light weight rifle is kind of silly to use a a dedicated long range varmint rifle. For a predator rifle, that is another story and as a predator rifle, I do not save pelts, I shoot yote to save on the population of game birds and deer which take a heavy toll from coyotes.

I want them dead and I want to be able to hammer them out to my maximum range which is determined by which rifle I have.

If I am going out walking I will carry my 25-06 firing the 100 gr Ballistic Tip at 3500 fps. With this rifle and its 4.5-14 V-Tac scope, I can hammer yotes well out to 600 yards even in slightly windly conditions.

If I am going to go sit on the rim of one of my deer hunting canyons to slim the yote populations, I will take either my 19 lb fast twist 6mm-284 or 15 lb 6.5-06 AI. With these rifles I can take yotes out well past 1000 yards with plenty of energy for the job at hand.

I suppose my idea of long range hunting is a little different then most, when I hear those words, I think 1/2 mile at least when varmint hunting. I would call 400-500 yard varminting moderate ranges and anything under 300 yards close range with a serious centerfire rifle.

Thanks for your opinion!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Pop Thanks for the PDF load data file! Hopefully will try out the 204 with some reloads today using the 32VMaxs. Mine registered it's first groundhog yesterday, 188 yards with a chest shot that exited left side.....not pretty! Is it a 22-250? NO! Is it a 223? Probably! Is it based on a proven case? YES! The 222MAG is everything a 223 wishes it was! (this ought to stir the natives up!) And fiftydriver, if I could only have one rifle(God forbid) for all my hunting, it would be a 25-06!!! I'm not expecting 22-250 or 25-06 varmint acrobatics out of it!! I'm not expecting it to be a 5-600 yard varmint rifle! But I am expecting to have fun shooting it and finding out for myself what it will do! A pic of the rifle topped with a 6.5-20 Nikon and the dead groundhog is posted at wildcatshooting and groovebullets if you want to look them up! GHD

I just picked mine up last week. 77 stainless 20" bbl. topped it off with a 6x18 redfield i had lying around. should make a good walk around varmit gun to 400+. I am gonna try the factory 40 grainers when i find some.

WOW, I din't mean to start all this, I just wanted some load data. :-)

Anyway, got my .204 done and shot it for the first time today. Had to shoot up some factory ammo to get some brass, but it looks promising. The 32 gr stuff didn't shoot to great, about an inch at 100 yards, but the 40 gr ammo shot very well, Two groups under 1/2, and average well under 3/4. Not to bad for factory ammo and a semi-auto. Barrel is a Pac-Nor 1-12.

John

White Oak Armament

32's haven't seemed to be up to the discontinued 33's for most of us, but half inch with the 40's sounds great. What was the load? Didn't happen to run'er over a chrono did ya?

It was Hornady factory ammo. Might be hard to beat with handloads. Sorry, no chrono data.

John

OK guys, Here's my first recommended loads(or starting points) for the 204! If you have some unopened boxes of 40 grain factory stuff, trade it for the 32's!! It's awful expensive fouling fodder!! If you have some 40 grain VMax's, do the same!! The factory 32's in my SAVAGE VLP are quite acceptable turning in decent groups and velocity at 4148. HOWEVER!!!! The 40 grain factory stuff was what I would have expected from a 1960's vintage Winchester!! Over 1.2 inches for average of 4 groups!! Figured I could do better handloading!! I did but not what I did with the 32's!!
40 VMax's ahead of 26.2 grains of H4895 averaged 3585fps with "shall we say" wide dispersion of bullets!!!".9". 26.6 grains of H4895 averaged 3694fps and .8" groups. The 32 grain VMAXS when loaded to COL's of 2.355(longer than listed data but work well in the Savage magazine) are pretty darn good!!! 28.3 grains of H4895 gave 4082fps and .449 for a SIX(6) shot group(all I had loaded like that) and 28.1 grains of VARGET managed 3, 3 shot groups averageing .324 at 4041fps(smallest was .236). So my rifle seems to prefer(with limited testing) the 32's over the 40's! Might ave to try some of the 50 grain BERGERS whenever some are to be had but for now will rely on the 32's for the little gun!! Just some thoughts from an eastern varmint hunter! One other thing that impressed me about the round, barrel heat is very managable!! Quite unlike some of the short, fat, overbore cases that seem to be showing up!! This one was based on a case that has been proven for going on 40 years!! This one is for real!!! As a guy that builds rifles and has had a shop for 40 years told me yesterday(his words not mine) "if it ends in millimeter it will shoot, and this one is 5 millimeter!!! Look at the 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm .....they all shoot! This one will too!" Again, his words not mine but he might be right!!! GHD