OK, here's the problem (and I'm happy to have this problem) I'm going to buy one new varmint rig this year and have my choice narrowed down to these two calibers. I'd like a little input from a few people on both calibers. Most of my shooting will be done on Prairie dogs and such as well as punching a little paper. Thanks guys.

jb, Although I will admit to never having the oppurtunity to use a 19-223, I have had a fair bit of range time(and field use also) on groundhogs using the 204. There are pluses and minuses for each that I can think of! Pluses for the 204 are that the bullet makers ar coming around to producing 20 caliber projectiles! Hornady was in the game early on with their 33grain VMAX's which were dropped in favor of the 32's and 40's. Berger offers several differnt weights all the way up to 50's! And now SIERRA has gotten on the bandwagon with their own 32's and 39 gariners.....whose next? Nosler? Speer? And who is catalogging a 19 caliber? Calhoon and who else? Brass is plentiful for the 19-223......everybody and his brother has a "Black Gun" that shoots it! And a lot of them leave it at the range! The 204 has the distinction of being from a PROVEN cse design.....222MAG which was SUPERIOR to the 223 from the get go! And then it became the 6x47 which was the darlling of the BR crowd until Pendall and Palmisano came up with their little ditty!!!(PPC) And factory brass ought to hit the market in bulk in the spring! Remington is now producing factory 204 loadings as well as Hornady......who's next? But I have yet to see a catalogging of 19-223 offerings.
If you want to see a few test groups using the 204(nowhere in this post do I refer to this as the .204"R" word! I have problems giving redit to anyone who would produce something as sorry as a Mini-14!!!!!) (Go ahead guys! J.I.M.S!!!)Go to www.wildcatshooting.com and look up my photo gallery and you will see a pic or two of the 204 results!! One of interest will be the photo with the description of "DRT"....dead right there! He was 323 yards, eating MY alfalfa! He died with the alfalfa in his teeth!!! And I got to see the "red mist and death spray" through the 6.5-20 NIKON with it set on 20!!! Do I like the 204? Just a bit!! Can't wait to run it on out to 5-6-700 yards this coming year!!!! GHD

to me it is no comparison. Calhoon supports the 19/223 like no other cartridge enjoys, and it is as good as a 204 any day, without all the hassles of brass availability etc.

I'd go with the calhoon, hands down.

cheers
seafire

Any of you 204 guys ever try a 20BR?

Tac 20 gives up nothing to either. Plentiful brass, bullets that you can buy from most any place nowadays (try to buy .19 cal bullets from Midway, Midsouth, Cabelas, Sportsmens Warehouse etc. ain't happenin')and of course loading data right out of a real book that includes obtainable bullet speeds.
I am buying a .204 but only because the barrel was set up that way.....but if I ever go custom with a .20 cal it will be a Tac.

Here's a reply based on emotion, not fact:

I've never used either one, stricktly .223 for cost and availability reasons.

However, Jim (of Calhoon) has attended a few manufacturing classes that I've helped put on and he's a fantastic Montana guy with a lovey wife. The only problem was that I wan't able to teach because he's so funny.

Support Montana! Buy the .19/.223!

He also gave me an empty/unprimed but "bulleted" case that was labeled the ".19 Badger" or something. It uses the .30 carbine case necked to .19. Should be interesting.

Jb,
I bought a .19-223 Calhoon about 3 years ago for something different. After trying it, I only wish that I had bought it sooner! It would have saved me from buying a whole raft of varmint calibers! The accuracy is phenomenal! I shoot the 32g bullet with AA-2520, and get between 4000 to 4100fps. This load will also put 5 shots into a single hole if I do my part. - And this is with an economical varmint bullet. I've also tried the 36g and 40g Calhoon bullets with excellent results. I have some 44 grainers that I haven't even tested yet, but expect great things from them.
I have no desire to even look at a .204 because the .19-223 is doing everything I could ask and more. As a matter of fact, I was so taken with the .19-223, that I turned around and bought one of his .19 Calhoon Hornets!
If you read his literature, what you see, is what you get. -It is right on the money. No hype, just plain, truthful fact.
Yes, no other manufacturers are producing .19 caliber ammunition to my knoweledge? I just bought a few thousands bullets for way less $$ than I would have spent on one of the name brand products. In fact, I find myself using more and more of Calhoon's .224 and .17 caliber bullets in my other rifles because they just work!
I guarantee you won't be disappointed in a .19 caliber. You'll end up like me. - Already thinking about that .19 Badger! Dang that Calhoon!!! LOL...

I'm with Eddie...20BR would be my choice.

Guys thanks for the input so far, GHD the 204 does have several advantages with bullet selection ;finally ( now if we could just get brass . I called Midsouth today and was told they would have brass next month, the kicker is they wanted 23.38 per 50, heck I can buy loaded ammo and have some fun with it almost as cheap. The 19 is just damn interesting to me.
HuntnCarve, can you give me some info as far as effective ranges,etc. I hope I'm not too far out of line expecting 300 to 400 yard range.

I have a Tactical .20 with a .20 VarTarg and the above mentioned .20BR in the immediate future.
Everyone gets an opinion and mine is that every one of the above posts is right on.
Everyone of the rounds mentioned is great and truth be told there's not .27 cents worth of difference between any of them with the possible exception of the .20BR which is truly a rocket and leaves the others well behind for velocity. That said the .20BR is the only round mentioned here that would overheat and cause excessive throat errosion in a prolonged string on a p-dog town. To me the .20BR is at it's best as a long distance Coyote or chuck buster that won't see the long strings my .Tact.20 does.
The Tactical.20 the .204 and the .19-.223 Calhoon all have similar capacity and performance. I don't have a .19 but I have spoken with Jim on a number of occasions and he is truly a wealth of Knowledge and every one I know that has one of his rifles sings the same tune, accurate, effecient and a bucket of fun!
His Badger is a .30carbine case improved and necked to .19 it's quite similar to the .20 VarTarg in performance. Either of those with their modest appetite would be outstanding p-dog rifles for prolonged strings.
I'll try to post a picture of the .19 Badger, Jim sent me a dummy round when I bought a modified CZ magazine from him for my .17 Ackley Hornet.
Here goes nothing.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/222335.jpg

Doug and JB, I have a friend who got one of the "19's" but his is a "Hornet" case necked down to 19! That one isn't pictured in the link. I haven't shot it but he thinks it's great.......he also inherited the PEPSI COLA fortune and therefore can have about any thing he wants!! He has a boat load of Number 1's and none of them are factory stocks......they're all some sugamuchi, finest grade, imported wood from somewhere in the world! I did see his "bird-gun" at the stock makers place(stockmaker was the former head gunsmith at "Ithaca Classic Doubles") and I asked him if somebody was really going to carry that gun!!!! He said, "Yea!!! And he's worrying the crap out of me waiting on it!!!!!" It was ol CS's gun all right! Couldn't wait to get it back and carry it up mountains, trip over deadfalls, traipse thru briars and generally get a good work out....in search of the elusive "Ruffed Grouse"!!!!
I ain'tgot that kind of money for everything I own to be custom! And although I am able to do some machining(with tools and equipment that is probably above and beyond that encountered in a lot of "custom shops" around the country,) I kind of stick to the tried and true offerings that come about now and then! The 204 is based on the 222MAG and when it came out, I only had about 1000 pieces of brass for it that only needed to be run thru the FL die and then fireformed......I shot a bunch of factory stuff up to get brass! And then gave a guy $105.00 for 500 pieces of once fired stuff to have a bunch more(rather than sacrifice my 222MAG brass)(even sold Varmint Guy 200 of them!!) So brass has not been a severe problem here!! And the accurracy of the darn SAVAGE VLP without any extra "smithing" has got me about convinced that the 204 is a pretty good little number!!! I like the "no recoi, see the bullet impact" feature of the 204!!!(albeit, the 19/223, 20 Tactical, and the 20 Var/Targ could probably accomplish this feat!!! It's all in what we have, what we shoot and what we like!!! I am also a fan of the BR(7 is my favorite) family of cases!!!!!! But my opinion(knda like something else we all have.......) is that the 20 BR may be accurate as the dickens but could also be a real little barrel burner!!! Eddie, I know you like it and so does Richard at "Richards Custom Rifles" but I think I'll just stick to the 204 for now!!!! GHD

Jb,
I am a big .220 Swift fan, and have some absolute tack drivers in that caliber. However, having said that, I find myself leaving the Swifts at home and taking the .19-223 when I go out for chucks. The trajectory is very simular. And the end results for the hogs is terminal!
I have my .19-223 sighted in 2" high at 100 yards. This puts me dead on at 300 yards, and about 8" low at 400 yards. My longest shot was at a chuck 427 lasered yards away. He was laying on a hill side, facing down hill. All stretched out, just enjoying the day. I put the crosshairs right on the tip of his rump, set the trigger, and squeezed. The "slap" of the hit came echoing across the valley. The big chuck never moved. Post mortem revealed the 32g bullet had taken him right between the shoulder blades. I was impressed! The problem was, now I had justification (contrary to my wifes opinion), to get a better scope to replace the Weaver V-16 I currently had mounted on the gun. A B&L 4200 6x24x now resides upon it. The clarity is superb! The Weaver is now on the .19 Calhoon Hornet! - All is right with the world, except if you're a chuck.

What is the actual measured diameter of a .19 cal bullet ? Is there a website that has info. on the .19 ?

try this, from the guy who started it all.
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/

skb2706; 19calhoon w/rgards

Thanks - pretty interesting stuff.....bullet prices are decent too.
.19 cal = .198"
.20 cal = .204"
I had read about the Calhoon and seen the case dimensions but never saw the write up. It would seem like a perfect custom barrel for a Contender/Encore and you wouldn't ty up $900 for the gun either.

I went with the Tac 20 for many of the same reasons cited above. A great bullet selection. Plentiful, really good brass, for a very reasonable price. Lot's of load data available. Great performance. Superbly accurate. Piece of cake to neck cases and fireform.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
jb, Although I will admit to never having the oppurtunity to use a 19-223, I have had a fair bit of range time(and field use also) on groundhogs using the 204. There are pluses and minuses for each that I can think of! Pluses for the 204 are that the bullet makers ar coming around to producing 20 caliber projectiles! Hornady was in the game early on with their 33grain VMAX's which were dropped in favor of the 32's and 40's. Berger offers several differnt weights all the way up to 50's! And now SIERRA has gotten on the bandwagon with their own 32's and 39 gariners.....whose next? Nosler? Speer? And who is catalogging a 19 caliber? Calhoon and who else? Brass is plentiful for the 19-223......everybody and his brother has a "Black Gun" that shoots it! And a lot of them leave it at the range! The 204 has the distinction of being from a PROVEN cse design.....222MAG which was SUPERIOR to the 223 from the get go! And then it became the 6x47 which was the darlling of the BR crowd until Pendall and Palmisano came up with their little ditty!!!(PPC) And factory brass ought to hit the market in bulk in the spring! Remington is now producing factory 204 loadings as well as Hornady......who's next? But I have yet to see a catalogging of 19-223 offerings.
If you want to see a few test groups using the 204(nowhere in this post do I refer to this as the .204"R" word! I have problems giving redit to anyone who would produce something as sorry as a Mini-14!!!!!) (Go ahead guys! J.I.M.S!!!)Go to www.wildcatshooting.com and look up my photo gallery and you will see a pic or two of the 204 results!! One of interest will be the photo with the description of "DRT"....dead right there! He was 323 yards, eating MY alfalfa! He died with the alfalfa in his teeth!!! And I got to see the "red mist and death spray" through the 6.5-20 NIKON with it set on 20!!! Do I like the 204? Just a bit!! Can't wait to run it on out to 5-6-700 yards this coming year!!!! GHD

I agree with everything you said about the mini-14. However, if it wasn't for RUGER you might not have the .204 RUGER.

After Hornady completed developement on the .204 (not yet RUGER) they had to find a company willing to make guns for it. RUGER stepped up and the rest is history.

Besides, if people keep buying the junkie mini-14, why stop making it?

Flippy, Point taken!!! And I could have had a Ruger a couple months before I got the Savage but I waited!!! GHD

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
Flippy, Point taken!!! And I could have had a Ruger a couple months before I got the Savage but I waited!!! GHD

I would rather have the Savage too...