I posed a question recently on 50 Drivers accuracy thread, and in the interest of not hijacking the thread i thought i'd continue the discussion herefor anyone that might like to comment on my babbling.



My 6mm AI has a 6-24X Burris Signature on it with the Ballistic Mil-Dot reticle, and I've had it for about 4 yrs. or so Hot Core.



It's really kinf of interesting how i got into this LR stuff. Several years ago i met a guy name of John Brandstatter out of Pueblo. West, CO. He was also into LR coyote shooting, and was adapting Leupold's Range- Estimating System on their Vari-X III models for use on coyotes. He was having a lot more success out to about 400 yds. or so since he began using the Duplex reticle as an optical rangefinder by adjusting the magnification of the scope to subtend a coyotes back-brisket measurement (about 12" or so), at his point blank range just like Sharpsman, and then doing some slight interpolation for longer ranges.

When i went home that day i jumped into it big time-- it was so fascinating. I began thinking if he was calculating reticle subtension by adopting simple ratio and proportion formulas then the system should be able to be manipulated for downrange zeros as well-- since it's all based off the same idea-- as magnification changes so does reticle subtension linearly. Once your ballistic program tells u what the bullet drop is in 50 yd. increments beyond your lower post tip zero for the highest magnification, then all u have to do is convert those measurements to "100 yd. correction", and then those are the subtensions u need to get to by calculating the corresponding magnification changes. The 100 yd. correction info. is explained on Burris's website in their technical specifications for the Ballistic Plex and BMD reticles. Although when calculating magnification changes it's an inversely proportional formula because as magnification increases reticle subtension decreases. I've actually come up with a "tactical" variable plex reticle scope system that can be adapted as an optical ranging system as well as calculating downrange zeros, as long as sight-in distance, line of sight height above bore, muzzle velocity, and bullet BC is known. But there was just one catch-- i also had to know the reticle subtension as well-- which is difficult at times since there are only a few companies that post that info on their website/catalog. This meant that i couldn't develop a "tactical model" for anyones rig until i got that info. But i didn't know how to do it.



Now here's the interesting part-- not long after i came up with this sytem i was riding my bike down the road when i happened to stop at a light. I glanced over at a street sign post, and there was my answer-- most street sign posts have holes drilled in them @ exactly 1" intervals. I rode home and along the way noticed that there was a sign post @ about 100 yds. from my dining room window, and when i measured it with the laser-- it was 102 yds. away. Now i could measure any scope reticle subtension off my dining rm. table(DISCREETLY) with a good degree of accuracy. I thought it might be a good idea to check it-- so i measured the subtensions of all the lower reference lines in my Burris Ballistic Mil-Dot, and they were right on the nose for their posted 100 yd. subtensions. Turns out that the road out in front of my house has street signs along the way at various ranges out to about 500 yds. I started calculating magniofication changes needed to bracket any of the signs at their particular ranges either x-hair to post tip or better yet-- post tip to post tip, and it works most of the time. I think the magnification calibration is off on a lot of the power rings of some variable power scopes-- but a fudge factor can then be applied once the actual magnification is found where the target is bracketed perfectly. Had a buddy of mine come over the house one day, and we calculated his point blank range manification on his Leupy duplex reticle, for a coyote relative to his load, and the downrange zero magnifications in 50 yd. increments out to about 500 or so. BUT haven't had an opportunity to test it yet. BUT i did test it indirectly once with my 6 AI again when i switched scopes to the Burris 4-12X Mini. But that's another story. Suffice it to say that it worked the only time i've had a chance to test it at a little oover 600 yds. on a cactus.

Now there's no question that this stuff can be done by placing targets at certain ranges and adjusting scope mag.'s to bracket them or matching plex post with downrange impact points, but understanding the mathematics behind the calculations goes a long ways toward developing a good LR system. Admittedly-- it's not a perfect system BUT-- and that's a big BUTT-- it's better than guessing.



Hot Core-- Exbal is a ballistics program geared toward calculating downrange zeros of any ballistic reticle, including mil-dot and any custom reticle imaginable. It also recalculates those zeros for magnification changes. It also calculates comeup clicks in about any size click u can come up with. This is just the beginning of his program menus, and in my opinion it is the single best resource available for LR shooting. Check it out @ www.perry-systems.com

Sscoyote: I see you hail from Colorado! I have only been there once and hope to get back soon!
I will bring a Varmint Rifle or two on my next visit!
The purpose of this posting is to ask you to define your version of long range Coyote shooting.
One of the first lessons a Coyote Hunter on the high plains learns while Coyote Hunting is - make the first shot count! Coyotes are capable of amazing speeds once they are shot at and missed! Also their speed is further put to use very often in their retreat to safety, in that they have the uncanny ability to assess the terrain and the position of the Hunter and race to a position that will get the terrain to conceal them! I have seen them do this more times than I would like to admit!
My solution is somewhat similar to yours. I prefer a very flat shooting Rifle (220 Swift, 6mm A.I., 240 Weatherby etc) and the use of a Laser Rangefinder (Leica 800 Model for now). During my daytime Hunts I simply use the Laser to familiarize myself with objects and terrain that is 400 yards distant. Then, I start calling. Often Coyotes will "hang up" on me when I am calling. Usually it is in the 300 to 400 yard distant range. A still Coyote though takes another of the variables out of that important first shot equation! If a Coyote sits down on its haunches while I am calling or my electronic caller is working I will go ahead and shoot at them then. I interpret this as a display of Coyote distrust and worry and they seldom come any closer - they will often sit there and yip at me. I interpret this sitting and yipping as a warning to other Coyotes in the area to "proceed with caution"!
I can not remember the last time I shot at an incoming Coyote in excess of 400 yards! I simply wait for them to get closer.
I have the Duplex reticles on most all my Varmint Rifles and prefer them for night use also. Speaking of night Hunting I do about 50% of my Coyote Hunting at night and my maximum shooting range drops down to about 250 yards. I have to set it there as the Coyote needs to be verified as the quarry once eyes are spotted in the red light! Lots of Deer, Antelope, Ranch Dogs, Calves, Bobcats, Wolves and various other creatures are in my area and they will respond also to my night calling. Bobcats are illegal to shoot at night in Montana!
So I am interested in your definition of long range Hunting. And if you are you calling Coyotes or still Hunting or stalking them? Or maybe you drive and watch and take shooting opportunities from your vehicle. Or like me calling them mostly?
I have a close friend in the Miles City, Montana area. He solved his Coyote ranging problems by having a large heavy Rifle made in caliber 30-378 Weatherby! He uses a custom VLD bullet and hot loads (flat shooting!). He avoids the need for ranging with a laser or complicated reticles by the use of this real flat shooter. He told me once his "point blank" range and I forget it exactly but it was something like 400 yards! He simply holds on fur out to 400 yards. The further out the higher on the fur he holds. Again I surmise he most often waits for the coyotes to get within 400 yards til he shoots. This is a good plan for him. He and his partner came in second place in the Miles City Coyote Contest year before last. They shot 103 Coyotes in the month of February long contest to take home the second place money!
Anyone that Hunts Deer or Antelope within 100 miles of Miles City should thank the folks that put on that Coyote Hunting contest! The Hunting has really improved since they began holding the contest!
My 6mm A.I. has a Leupold 8.5x25 scope on it with the plain old Du-Plex reticle and I enhance this flat shooter not with memorizing reticle subtensions or special reticles but with the Laser Ranger prior to starting to call.
Make that first shot count!
Again I hope you will enlighten me as to how you Hunt the Coyotes (calling, still Hunting etc) and as to what you consider long range!
I was Hunting along the bluffs of the Powder River two Decembers ago and I had my 220 Swift Remington 40X along with a Leupold 6.5x20 scope on it. A Coytote responded to my calling and according to my partner ran along the base of the bluff I was sitting hidden on and got to exactly below me then sprinted up the hill and showed itself to me for the first time at 25 yards and I shot it at 15 yards! I literally had no time to turn the power on the scope down not that it would have helped much at that range anyway - I simply aimed down the side of the 27 1/4" barrelled Varminter and shot the Coyote in the chest! Yeah I was well prepared for a long shot but not an ultra short range shot!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey sscoyote, Just happened to notice in the other thread that you:

Quote:

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I had a Rem. 700 SA built up as a "long-range" coyote gun in 6mm AI.

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I'm sure that would have been "my" selection for the action as well. I also see a lot of folks hearlding great things for the "Holy Grail" (rag) Pre-64 M70s, but it is not often to see one of them, or even a current production(much better) M70 selected as the basis for a rifle intended for superb accuracy. No doubt it can be done with a lot of money though.

Did you go with a Stainless action? What kind of stock? Factory trigger?

Kind of surprising that you didn't mention a "Plastic Tip" bullet, or did I miss that? Have you tried them in comparison with those Standard Interlocks? Some of my most accurate Loads use the Plastic Tips and some are still using the good old Standard Grade Interlocks, Hot-Cors, GameKings and the amazingly accurate Remington PLHPs in 22cal and 6mm.

Which reminds me, if you have not tried the 6mm 80gr PLHP (not the PSP) Remingtons, I can recommend them highly. They are made by "Plating" the Jacket to a Lead Core similar to the Speer Gold Dots. Forming the "Lead Core" into a precise Bullet shape is "relatively" easy when compared to forming a Jacket and forcing a Lead Core into proper concentric alignment within that Jacket. Remington also makes 50gr and 55gr PLHPs in 22cal.

And if you look closely at the recently new Remington CoreLokt Ultras, you will find a similar technology. But, I've not seen them available for us Reloaders yet.

One of my old buddies is a Retired Winchester Rep. Needless to say, he is extremely knowledgeable about the Winchester product line and even the Remington products which he competed with. About 15 years ago, he showed up at the Range with a Blue & Synthetic Push Feed M70 chambered for the 6mm Rem. As we discussed it, he handed me a cartridge.

As I looked at it, I noticed the "Dimple Shaped" Hollow Point in his Bullet looked just like the one I was using in my 243Win. As I rolled them to the side, even the Profiles seemed to be the same. Come to find out, he was also a HUGE Fan of the Remington PLHP Bullets and we were both shooting that 80gr 6mm version.

He said he had so much confidence in them that he always used them on his two annual Mule Deer Hunts out West and of course on the local Whitetails when he carried his 6mmRem M70.

Gents,



I posted this on another thread but ia applies here.When it comes to coyotes,I am a big believer in trying to operate within a round's PBR and keeping things simple.



Many times a shot must be taken quickly on a moving animal and various "systems" for easy long range shooting fall apart.I have immense respect for Coyotes and love to hunt them.To me,they are a noble animal and deserve the best shot I can make,BUT many times the crafty little devils give us little time to make it.



I shoot mainly .22-250s for coyotes.I have a 6.5-20 variable scope that I keep set on 14x because that is the power at which a Coyote's body at 350 yards will just fill the space between the horizontal cross hair to the thick verticle section of the Duplex reticle.



This gives me a quick "visual range finder" to tell if the animal is too far away.I keep my rifle sighted dead on at 300yards.It is about 4" low at 350 .It is what I consider the outside edge of my PBR for that rig.If the Coyote is further out than that,well it's time to lazer range him and then calculate how far over his back to hold.Even when there is time to do that,it is still a guessing game, particularly when the wind is up.Thus my desire to keep my shots inside 350yards...



BTW,if I am calling in thick cover or the dog is coming in hard and fast and I think it's going to get "up close and personal",I immediately turn the power ring clockwise until it stops at 6.5x!!!!



As to those Remington Plated HPs,years ago (the late 1980's) only Hornady and Remington were maiking commercially available .17 bullets, and I was having touble getting my little Sako.17Rem to shoot well with the Hornady slugs.Chub Eastman at Nosler(God bless his soul) told me to call the famous rifle builder H.L. "Pete" Grisel in OR and ask his advice as Pete loved .17 Rems for 'yotes.



Anyway, I did call and Pete told me to buy some Remington PLHP bullets as they were all he used.I did and low and behold,groups tightened right up!! I later owned and HB Sako and it would shoot Remington factory loaded .17 Rem rounds into little bitty groups as well with those PLHP bullets..They are good stuff!!

Here's the link to 50's thread we started to hijack at the end of it. http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=714134&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1



It details the 1st calculated long shot i made with my 6mmAI @ around 460 or so if i remember correctly. It was hard for me to trust the system i'd developed-- but even tho it was a crude attempt at calculated LR shooting-- it worked, and over the last several yrs. "perfecting" it, now has been responsible for almost 100 % out to 600 yds. or so-- maybe 5-10 coyotes in the last 3 yrs. BUT i don't take these kind of shots when wind is up. Conditions have to be "right" for me to go to those ranges-- and it seems i'm always tweeking things here and there to maintain the integrity of the system.



HC-- seems like that Weaver u were using was similar to several ranging reticle systems that were popular back 10-20 yrs. ago. Talked to 1 guy awhile back that was using the Redfield Accutrac with a good degree of success.



Sharpsman-- Of all the guys i've ever talked to about adapting the Duplex reticle for rangefinding, this guy Brandstatter was one of the most insightful. Once he started applying it in the field he really increased his % success to "LR". But another fascinating story was one he told me about how he convinced a tactical competitior-- Mike Dowd out of Pueblo here to use it in the old Steel Safari in New Mexico. The guy wasn't doing well so Brandstatter suggested he shoot a 6-284 with a 90 gr, Ball. Tip, and adjust his magnification to Point Blank Range (PBR) for the diamond shaped 12" targets they were shooting to 600 yds. or so. The 1st time he used it he won the comp. against all the military sniper types that were ranging and running clicks. His system was fast and accurate enuf to get the shots on. He's also won it 1 other time as well now.



HC-- u know it's interesting u brought up the Leupold subtensions varying, and not matching up with what's advertised. The Burris doesn't seem to either. In fact i called Larry Walsh there at Burris and asked him about how they measured them-- turns out i guess they do the same thing we do-- put up a target, look thru the scope, and check them that way. If u think about it they're probably not gonna be perfectly reproducible either since manufacturing technology is not perfect. I calculated a system for a guy not too long ago that was using a 3.5-10X Leupy on a 30-378 Weatherby-- he said the system was close but not perfect out to about 5-600 yds. or so. I'm gonna have to ask him to measure his reticle and see if that's what was wrong. Interesting.



Hey VG-- Good question about what is long-range. U know i've been thinking about that for awhile now-- and fro me LR is aanything beyond my PBR. I tell u i've been shooting pd's, chucks (wood and rock), and coyotes since the mid-'70's, and i still can't judge 400 yds. consistently enuf to be accurate without a laser-- heck even 300 for that matter. My lonest kill on coyotes is one i took at 906 yds. couple yrs. ago with a 6.5-284 XP pistol-- believe it or not. On some of the ranches i hunt-- i'm expected to shoot every coyote i can so that was the reason i took the shot. The coyote had responded to my call only enif to check it out, and sat down on the far side of a basin on his haunches-- u know how they do-- trying to get his Doctorate in coyote hunters-- he already had a Masters, i think. i was sittiing ina soft-sided stadium seat. I lasered him, tightened up the straps on the seat, had a tall Harris attached, put the trigger guard snugly between my knees, ran in the Exbal- calculated clicks into the Burris 3-12X LER with the lower post tip as a click zereo for ranges beyond that post tip zero (can't remember what it was now), lined the surprisingly steady reticle up on the lower post tip, and fired. I couldn't believe it when i looked back at the hillside with my binoc. and saw him laying there. 129 SST enetered dead center in his chest, and (fortunately), exited his spine about the size of a quarter. I tube-skinned him, and I've got him tanned on my wall now. What a coversation piece that makes.



Most of my coyote hunting is spot and stalk-- in fact i had an article on it in VHA couple yrs. ago. This is why i started to get into researching LR-- since that's what was often presented to me in this new endeavor. But i still call a lot since i can;'t find anybody that wants to put the effort into stalking most of the time.



HC-- when I tested loads for that 6AI-- I reluctantly couldn't get the 87 gr. V-Max to shoot. I like to shoot the highest BC bullets that will provide good terminal ballistics downrange. I've been working with an Insight Systems AR-15 9 twist recently in .223 AI. I've been investigating the long-range performance of the little case on coyotes. So far the best bullet i've found for it is the 69 gr. Nosler Comp. I think that bullet has a large enuf meplat, and frontal area to provide for good terminal ballistics out to about 500 or so. I do some freelance writing for some of the mags, and i've got a long article going into VHA entitled, "On the Tactical Pursuit of Coyotes", regarding what we're talking about here. It starts out with a long shot i made with the 70 gr. JLK VLD bullet, i made on a coyote with the AR, BUT i have stressed in the article that when researching the use of VLD's for hunting purposes, the shooter must be careful to try and pick one that will provide for good terminal ballistics within the ranges that the bullet will be used. JLK offers some .22 LD bullets for varminting that have some very high BC's and i know of 1 guy that is already using them out of his Cooper .22-250, and getting excellent results out to around 500 yds. That 70 JLK turned out to not work well enuf even tho it still produced more than 2000 fps @ 600 yds. out of my AR. Looks like Sierra is finally getting the message tho. They had a poll recently to seem what the shooters wanted to see produced-- guess which one won-- the 69 gr. 22 cal. Blitzking-- i bet they'll have it out before next yr.

Me and my calling partner take 50-60 yotes a year. This is the system that we both use and have come to like very much. Please keep in mind that most of these dogs are called in but we also take em as we get them.

His action is a 700/long

Mine is a pre 70/long

tubes are both 6/06 4 weights from Schneider

he uses a 12 twist and I use a 10

scopes are 6.5-20 Leo's with dots to 700 yards from Premeir reticle, yotes offer a small target IMO and using the dots at ranges help to keep from shooting over for use.

both use Leica range finders

bullets he uses a 70 Noz Bt and I use a 96 Noz Bt

It has worked for us and we both feel that it is a very tough rig to beat for yotes especially if the shots get to 300 or more. We both feel that the big 6's have quite a bit more to offer for yote taking than the 17's or the big or lil 22's (and yep we've done quite a bit of work with those as well).

The other rig I use is a M700 7 Mashburn Super with a Jewell trigger in it, a Brown glass stock, a 4-14 Leo with Premier dots to 700 and a 150 Noz Bt. It is a pretty darn good long range yote rig.

Have a super day!

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

slow core: Count me as one of many, many Varminters and accuracy buffs that uses the wonderful, strong, safe, accurate, beuatiful and reliable pre-64 Model 70 Rifles and actions for Varminting and for the basis of superb custom Rifles.
Indeed my custom 240 Weatherby is built on a Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action. It is accurate, safe, beautiful and reliable!
The Riflesmith that made that Rifle is the renowned Jim Cloward of Seattle, Washington.
In case you do not know him he has been making competition Rifles for 40 years that I know of and he competes around the country in High Power contests. He uses Model 70 actions as often as he can find them as the basis for his very accurate custom Rifles.
My 240 Weatherby is simply "death by laser" when it is afield. I have killed long range Rock Chucks, Coyotes, Mule Deer and Antelope with it for 14 years now with nary a glitch in its accuracy, reliability or safety! I hope you do not mind being corrected and humiliated in public!
Your inept attempts at trying to besmirch this wonderful Rifle only belies your own ignorance and ineptitude!
As one who has Hunted with, shot, traded, collected and used these Rifles for many decades now I must issue a warning to anyone that is considering anything that contrary core has to say as credible - think again. He is nothing but a self described expert with no real experience what so ever in the regard of the pre-64 Model 70 Winchester. He has proven this over and over again by his dunderheaded sweeping attempts at defamation of this wonderful arm! His attempts at denigrating this wonderful Rifle are specious (without merit!), unproven, ludicrous, layghable and his position in this regard is untenable and he won't even defend his bizarre declarations against the M-70. The nitwit apparently knows no shame or boundary to his stupidity as I have proven on other threads. He has the typical immaturity of a contrary. He says outrageous and untrue things just to attract attention to his self!
Beware of lending any credence what so ever to this contraries contentions!
That and he is a coward! I have also proven that repeatedly as I continuously pose simple and direct questions to him regarding this arm and he will not or can not answer them! Yet he keeps making the same outrageous and unproven allegations against the fine pre-64 Model 70's!
Again take anything this cretin offers up with a grain of salt.
And AGAIN I have to point out these untruths this immature and imbecilic "self appointed" expert on the Model 70 espouses. Specifically - the work I have had done on Model 70's to customize them was no more expensive than the other types of actions I have had customized!
snot core - go back to your sandbox and play with those of your own mental acuity!
Long live the wonderful, safe, strong, beautiful and accurate pre-64 Model 70!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: flat core, when are you going to answer those direct and simple questions I posed to you? Afraid? Can't? Whats your excuse there baffoon?

Sscoyote: Congratulations on that amazing long shot! Good for you! 906 yards with a pistol no less! Again congratulations!
I have always admired the XP-100 line of pistols and have owned several of them. I am down to one right now and it has a Burris straight 10 power pistol scope on it. It is amazing the accuracy I can achieve with that rig! Plus its so handy to bring along on fishing, touring and Gunshow trips. It takes up no room and "Varmints Beware" is the rule of the day when I drag it out!
Could you give me the issue number of your article as I have the full collection of them (VHA Life Member #185!) and I would like to reread that article.
Again super shot there on the Coyote!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG-- it's issue #41-- 1-02. Have u ever written anything for the mag.?