Forgive me, this will be posted in a couple of spots for max notification..however it is varmint season and the number of PMs and emails I get on this subject are skyrocketing.. especially since the major manufacturers are coming out with smaller cartridges, or they are getting wildcatted a lot...

Well there has been an major increase in emails on this subject, particularly since the majors are coming out with smaller than 223 varmint cartridges and folks are interested in trying out...

This was posted on a thread here, but it will hopefully answer some of the questions I get a lot of...

These are guidelines, not gospel..they work for anything I have ever tried, but as soon as I say that, someone presents some case that no one else on the planet uses...apply this from the 17 Fireball on up, I have no idea of the results in things like the 14 Walker etc...

1. Start out with pistol primers if need be.. they are softer...
2. Determine max case capacity for the case you are using Blue Dot in.. to do that, fill until the case overflows...scrape off the excess until it is flush with the case mouth... then weight the charge...
3. Take 20% of that figure.. that is your minimum charge. and will not result in a squibb load...START AT THIS POINT...
4. 40% of the full capacity figure is the place to start working up slower...start working up in smaller increments here..like 1/10 of a grain...
5. 50% is where the max charge should be lurking somewhere around...

the smaller the case, the smaller increments you work up, especially at 40% Full Case Capacity or more...

case shape and capacities can vary the max point here..
for instance a 284 and a 280 case both have the same capacity... but the short fat case of the 284 is more condusive for B/Dot efficiency vs the 280 case... the 284 will usually run 60% of full case capacity, but the 280 will only run about 50 to 52% safely...

Blue Dot likes short fatter cases than it does long skinny ones..for max capacity, not accuracy..there is no real difference in accuracy potential..

if someone was doing a wild cat, and wanted to use Blue Dot.. and say the bore desired was 20 cal.. if they were looking for efficiency, I'd say use the 20 Tactical.. if they wanted max velocity, without being overbore, I'd recommend either the 20 BR case, or if they wanted a little more max velocity then use the 22.250 or 22.250 AI case....if they were looking for max efficiency, I'd recommend the 222 case necked down first, and the 221 Fireball case next...the fireball case would be my choice to work with 32 grain bullets, and the 222 case would be my choice for efficiency with 40 grain bullets..

Blue Dot doesn't get trickier on smaller cases, just the parameters get tighter tolerances is all...

above 40% full case capacity work in 1/10 grain increments...
more time consuming yes.. safer tho, yes..
worth the time investment in the long run, yes....

one last thing on primers.. pressure signs show up faster with pistol primers, because they are softer.. once one has a comfort level, then they can move up to rifle primers.. I usually don't see the need for mag primers, even for light loads with Blue Dot...they will work, but are not needed and the max load should be reduced a little to compensate.. they will generate higher pressures without any increase in velocity...

IMPORTANT NOTICE..Recommended procedure..

To avoid a possible double charge, always charge a case and then seat a bullet, before going on to the next round..

I also recommend weighing each charge, instead of using a powder thrower.. I never use one, with any powder, as I prefer a beam scale and a Lee Dipper.. and trickler..I also do that for any round with any powder...

If you are in a panic about a double charge, or have sloppy load bench techniques, then use a powder that is too slow for your case and you'll never have to worry about a double charge...

Example.. use 4320 in a Fireball or Hornet case......

Safe reloading technique and paying attention is the handloaders responsibility...
like doing dumb things like.. well Blue Dot and Red Dot are both powders with the name of Dot in them and both are made by the same company, so either one must have interchangable load data...

or H 335, and H 414, both look the same and both are made by Hodgdon, so their load data must be interchangable...

or RL 7 and AA # 7 both have the same number in them, so they must be interchangable....

Mistakes like that are just plain moronic.... but the sad thing is when someone gets hurt from doing something moronic......it isn't funny anymore..

So pay attention and follow instructions....
Info I put forward are guidelines but not gospel.. if they scare you for some reason, then don't use them.. know what you are doing.. if you don't, then it is a good sense of practicality to realize you are messing with something you have no business messing with...

like any load, blue dot loads are safe within their parameters...
it is your job to learn or know what those parameters are...and sometimes what is safe in one brand of brass even, becomes unsafe in another brand, because one case is much heavier and has less capacity than the other...


cheers
seafire
Feb 2008

Thanks for the information, I enjoy reading the Blue Dot reports, keep em' coming. One of my favorite powders for my 223's reduced loads.
David

seafire i started with your 223 rem loads and used the formula for a 204 ruger with 32 gr bullets.just wanted to let you know this stuff really works good.killed a coyote at 150 yards at 9:30 sunday mornand he was running.when i was looking for my bluedot powder i came across some pearl scott and royal scott,ant ideas.thanks for your work on this.

Thanks...

sorry I don't have any work done with Scott Powder.. in fact I don't even remember seeing it on shelves....

are you shooting Blue Dot in a bolt action or single shot or AR? If doing so in an AR, I am starting to wonder about its use in those..someone had a problem that we haven't put our finger on..

seafire... Have you worked any loads in Ramshot for an ar 223 with 20"barrel? Cool pic.. always wanted to fly a spit or 51 .... flew some jets in the Navy

roger

quote:

Originally posted by big johnson:
seafire... :

Check it out ,B.J. It's younger horses and faster women-----.

seafire the 223 rem was shot in a handi rifle and the 204ruger was with a savage bolt rifle.about the powder just funning i have several pounds left from shooting sporting clays.

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
seafire the 223 rem was shot in a handi rifle and the 204ruger was with a savage bolt rifle.about the powder just funning i have several pounds left from shooting sporting clays.

roger that!

Big Johnson...

I haven't played with Ramshot, although I hear very good reports on it...I am not an AR guy tho.. scored expert in the Army with the M16, but that is most of my experiences with it..

I am around them a lot, just haven't taken the plunge.. having too much fun with bolt action varmint rifles...

Seafire-
Good to see that you have addressed double charges. As for "moronic", I am not perfect but ouch! I can only hope that will help a novice not get K-a-boomed and your more safe as well. Now I am confused about one thing you have referenced slower powder,
"If you are in a panic about a double charge, or have sloppy load bench techniques, then use a powder that is too slow for your case and you'll never have to worry about a double charge..."
Now I am confused, This whole time I thought your intention was to proffer a reduced; by my understood definition, a load intended to produce lowered recoil, velocity and report, load and now a slower powder or that takes up say, three quarters of case capacity, is too slow for your case.

Sir, I must point out that you have specified nether a case or powder to set the bar, so if you will please let me. The Winchester 308 or 7.62X51, has the ability to be used as a large varminting round, as a big game round, as a favorite target round and should lie in the middle of the field of common cartridges reloaded. I would then assume that we would be only be using light projectiles say in the 110 to 150 grain range.

Now, what parameters to compare in order to reach what conclusion? Seafire what exactly is the mission of your Blue Dot load Advice Column? With the purpose inevitably performance parameters may emerge and a scale for each may be agreed upon.
During an evaluation name calling and passing of judgment is unnecessary and revealing of coarse character, anyone who desires to participate please refrain from these or any other form of antagonization.

Rex,

to address several of your points...

1. "If you are in a panic about a double charge, or have sloppy load bench techniques, then use a powder that is too slow for your case and you'll never have to worry about a double charge..."

Answer: For some reason, I have been a bullseye on questioning the use of Blue Dot of recent... the point I am making above, is that those who don't have experience or have safety concerns... then if they use a powder that is too slow for their size of case.. like 4350 or 4831 in a 223, case they will never have to worry about a double charge..it will have reduced velocity and low pressure.. but the recoil level, etc will be there....

if you are talking a 308 case, or an 06 case, then use powders like H 870, or H1000... you can't get enough in those cases to raise pressures to levels that one would have to worry about high pressures or double charges...

2. What is my mission on Blue Dot loads?
Answer: to provide a low recoiling load for younger shooters, while still giving a load that is capable of taking deer sized game at ranges of 200 yds..

for varmints, economical high volume shooting, that is easier on barrels, and doesn't heat up the barrel enough to have to stop and let it cool off....

3. During an evaluation name calling and passing of judgment is unnecessary and revealing of coarse character, anyone who desires to participate please refrain from these or any other form of antagonization.

Answer: Very valid point... shows that I am getting a little irritated at being flamed, after passing on all my work and effort to other forum members for free for the last 4 years or so of doing this work.. at my time and at my expense...

Doing a search on Blue Dot loads here on AR, you will find that is not the norm in which the information was presented...

the downside of these forums is that no matter what is posted, there is always a few guy in the audience that want to come up with a million questions of "what if".. on what I consider a season handloader would either know or see the answer at realitively obvious...

i will guarantee you on thing.. I spend 10 times as much time answering questions than I spend doing load development..

I take question and even what I consider pot shots from folks I know and consider friends on the forum.. an that doesn't bother me..

but when I get it from folks I don't even know, who haven't been here very long.. well those of us who have been around a while... we have seen a million "know it alls" come and go around here... the supply is endless..

it is enjoyable to help fellow shooters, new shooters and to share things you find out, that will benefit fellow forum members... offering it at no charge is a courtesy.. but I happily do it as I learn a lot from other members...

but to get criticized or flamed when you are trying to be helpful.. gets irksome after a while...hence the sarcasm you pointed out..

I hope this answers your questions, even if it is not the answers you may want to hear..but at that moment that is my answer to them....

Seafire I will with no problem and for good conscience, admit a mistake in understanding the double charging portion of your statement. It seemed to be an attack, with the purpose of describing the regularly excepted powders for the case as to slow. When, it was intended to inform us of the alternative in using the slower powders for reduced charges with our cartridges, although belligerently. This really addresses most of my concern and when taken in context; as understood by me, then it seems much more than nickel and dimming you. It would be quite a ragged hole in your otherwise fairly consistent (yes I had already done a search due to the heavy disagreement of others) body of writing.

The idea of using the fast powder for volume shooters is a good one! With less powder there will be less heat, neat! The only problem would be working up loads. Being a more time consuming task than normal due to the small increments required, those who may get impatient be ware! Hell, with the strength of the newer arms you probably would still have all body parts and function after shooting more than a double charge! I like what you are doing but would not publish it my self for fear of those damn vultures that have helped ruin this fine country!

WARNING, Never Deviate from Manufactures Recommendations when Reloading! Do NOT attempt to duplicate, for information purposes only!
Ps- Please do not think of me as a fanatic by the book reloader! I do not talk about it much and do not even shoot them at my regular range; I have read some good books after being started out by a member of this board, because if I do a miss step on a triplex cartridge to injure another would be unforgivable! Loads such as the loads which you are using were the second step in my progression to learning the rules of "mixing powders" (really liked H110 for reduced loads, stable{Relatively}) but I Will Never Publish the data Anywhere!

The results from a detailed work up using more than one powder can be from fantastic, 400fps or more over best canister type to not so spectacular and it heavily depends on the functioning of the cartridge and rifle both independently and taken as a whole. Total free bore and its relationship to seating depth effect capacity as projectile weight, hardness, diameter and distance from the lands influence the behavior of pressure. For instance in working with the 308 I have found that the light bullets are propelled with little gain from even a duplex load but the heaver they get the grater the Delta V over the best canister powder choice, with barrel length becoming more critical.

My favorite load so far uses US 869, IMR 3031(great for high pressure and high temp work as an exciter for the heavy stuff) , Alliant Red Dot with a CCI BR2 primer, layered and compressed under a 220grn A square monolithic solid (chucking them up in a lathe and giving some relief for the material displaced during engraving helps) "all the way out" with a heavy crimp, Lake City brass @~2600FPS MAX (Did I mention MAX?)! I would use it on grizzly, but a 460 Wby Mag is a better choice! Shot Placement Is the Key!


As for my comment on antagonization and so forth, my intention was to set up a situation where we could discuss the situation at hand without; or at least with the ability to shun, those that might inject their unfounded views emotionally as had been seen on another thread. If the shoe fits, ware it.


Best of luck and keep up the good work!
RR

Seafire2

Thanks for taking your time and talents and bringing another format to us as I have a small idea of how much time you have spent making a positive contribution to the chaps here. I find your project extremely interesting and hope to do some testing of it and see if it could apply to my wants and needs in the varmint area.

But the thing I admire most is your guts to post on this board with a new idea that goes against what many would say is conventional wisdom and practice and be willing to take the flamers that you probably knew would be coming at you. It seems if someone comes up with a fresh idea that is contrary to their "opinions" you're a idiot at least and a bastard at best. I guess they feel if they don't know about and approve of it, you must be nuts. Carry on and keep working on new ideas. Thanks for your efforts.

Thank you for all the work . i love it. Got to get retired and try some BD.,. 8 months to go.
to retire. I always run a light over loaded cases in the reloading block to check. i like your pistol primer idea. I did a load work up with a S&W MP15 AR and thought I had found the load. Ran them over the clock and the primers looked good. Was doing some plinking with my son with new loads and three of the cases the primers dropped out. OOPS ! did not see it till pulled the brass out of the catch bag. Put the primers that fell out of the brass back in the case and they look good not flat. Been reloading more years than I want to say first time I have had that happen

Seafire,

I wonder if 'instructions' is a little strong in this litigous world we live in today?

I also wonder what volume the 40/50% charge weights hold true to?

Are you 'instructing' me to fill 50% of my 244Holland and Holland belted magnum with Blue Dot under a 105gr speer?

Your work on all of this is truly charitable, it would be a shame if you were to be penalised by some idiot taking things too literally.

Load books appear to be written for morons - they have to cater to the lowest common denominator - to do otherwise is risky.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Seafire,

I wonder if 'instructions' is a little strong in this litigous world we live in today?

I also wonder what volume the 40/50% charge weights hold true to?

Are you 'instructing' me to fill 50% of my 244Holland and Holland belted magnum with Blue Dot under a 105gr speer?

QUOTE]

1894Mk2...

from past experience, I know you as a 'friendly' not a troll...

to answer your question on your 244 H & H, all I can do is correlate experience on other similar sized cartridges... you'll have to work that one up yourself, as I have not worked with that cartridge...

however, if you ask the same question of say the 7 Rem Mag, or the 300 Win Mag, or the 338 Win Mag... I can answer that question with an affirmative...yes, they will all take a 40 % load and a 50% load easily with just about all bullet weights...

in the 300 Mag, I have only gone to the 180 grain bullets, so I can answer that as a positive...

in the 338 WM, I have gone to 250 grain bullets, and that was no issues in my rifles.

in the 7 Rem Mag, I am still working on that cartridges data, but up to 154 grain Hornady, the answer is yes...

I have to publically admit here, that criticism on this is getting irksome to say the least....

99% of all folks whom have asked for data using Blue Dot have responded back very positively after using it.. in a wide variety of calibers, within the parameters that I have indicated...

no individual has ever emailed me to give me a negative opinion of the results after trying it...

the very small amount of folks who have slammed me and it have admitted in the majority, they haven't even used it....most of the flak I get is involved in their theories or the theories they read, vs actual hands on experience that I have gotten from plain old fashion working with it...

ya know, for folks who don't want to use it, then fine.. I can't be the world's zoo keeper for morons who happen to be interested in firearms... but whether it is Blue Dot or any other powder.. folks who can't follow instructions or use their heads have no business handloading, regardless of the powder, the bullet or the caliber...

ya can't fix stupid...

and a lawyer wants to sue me.. well it is going to have to be done in my local town, they also have to make sure I have something they can get, and they are going to have to prove I TOLD someone to use the data... all I share is what is the results in my firearms....

you folks don't want us sharing info on line, then complain to Saeed, it is his site...

personally, I am tired of the criticism, when I am going out of my way to try and help my fellow shooters, not screw someone up, or get some idiot to hurt himself...

if ya want to live your life dodging some slyme ball lawyer out to make a quick buck.., then don't get out of bed in the morning...

Seafire,
You are sounding a little upset! I don't use Blue Dot (yet), but plan to do so in the not too distant future when I round up a .22-250 to play with. I would respectfully recommend a small bit of friendly advice. First, continue do do load development. You have helped and encouraged more loaders and shooters than you know just from postings on this site. Second, shoot more. Find yourself a field loaded with sage rats and see how many Blue Dot loads it takes to warm the barrel up to "too-hot-to-touch." It sounds like you need a holiday!
Keep up the good work, Man, you are doing a great job.
Best regards,
Graham

Thanks M70..

Axtually I have a couple of thousand Blue Dot 223 loads ready to go once the sage rats get out and start running...

I also shoot about 100 rounds a week off, just target practicing from various shooting positions.. I use Blue Dot loads for those also...

I wouldn't call it upset... women get upset.. gay guys get upset.. kids get upset....guys like me just get pissed after a while....

I haven't done any load development for the last 4 to 6 months just because of the flak of a few folks on line here....

Folks use to really look forward to when I posted blue dot loads on a new caliber.. folks also sent me tons of emails with caliber requests...

I have been working on the 7 Rem Mag since last fall at the request of quite a few folks... several members have even been gracious enough to send me about half a dozen boxes of bullets in different weights in 7mm Cal...

Just each time I start to get some loaded up and tested, I think of how much more flaming I am going to have to endure, from those that either haven't tried it, and think it conflicts with what they think is gospel....

I am not overly sensitive, but even the deepest well can eventually overflow...

Good intentions being greeted with criticism from the unknowning and inexperienced, can sort of piss ya off after a while......

my only intention is to help fellow shooters... the only compensation I have gotten are a few donations of components, and a lot of thank you emails.... that is just fine, but some of this online criticism, is really starting to undermine the efforts...and the appreciation received...

my last intention is hurting someone, yet that happening is the first thing that I am accused of...so I test this stuff beyond the limits to see where the wall lies, and then scale back the recommendations on the max loads...

there is never a max load I have recommended that I have not tested several grains beyond...

Folks have a real problem accepting that certain powders can have very predictable correlations in like sized cases.....regardless of bore diameter or bullet weight size...

From experience, I find that sectinal density has a bigger correlation to predictability than does bullet weight...

and the faster the powders, the more predictable parameters they have in similar sized cartridges...

That is learned from doing a lot of loading, testing and comparing results... personally, not reading some article in a book or magazine somewhere...

To those that my anger may bother, I deeply apologize...

I think the difficulty is that you're advocating loads that the manuals continue to caution people never to do in huge block capitals.

A bit like climbing into a stand with a loaded rifle. All the books say you must unload but some people don't that it works 99.99% of the time doesn't mean you can publish it without being cautioned.

Interesting that I haven't seen any criticism of Saeed for his blue dot loads.

quote:

I think the difficulty is that you're advocating loads that the manuals continue to caution people never to do in huge block capitals.

Because they haven't tested it...

they decide what to test and in what application, strictly based on marketing speculation of sales potential... safety is a back seat to marketing in about any corporation... safety is also a knee jerk reaction in most corporations, to liability exposure....

So if they haven't tested it, doesn't mean they haven't done so based strictly on 'safe' issues..

cast bullet shooters, use tons of these powders you don't see in the mainstream hunter useage..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

I think the difficulty is that you're advocating loads that the manuals continue to caution people never to do in huge block capitals.

Because they haven't tested it...

they decide what to test and in what application, strictly based on marketing speculation of sales potential... safety is a back seat to marketing in about any corporation... safety is also a knee jerk reaction in most corporations, to liability exposure....

So if they haven't tested it, doesn't mean they haven't done so based strictly on 'safe' issues..

cast bullet shooters, use tons of these powders you don't see in the mainstream hunter useage..

seafire and others

Johns answer is just about verbatim of what I received from Ben Ammonete (SP) from Alliant.

After I heard that I figured seafire was on the up and up. After I picked up a 19 Calhoon Badger I was rumaggeing through all Jim Calhoons load data for the Badger, Calhoon Hornet and the 19-223. Lo and behold, guess what I found in there and appeared to my bloodshot eyes.

BLUE DOT LOADS.

I am sure Mr. Calhoon would not use for his own purposes in one of his rifles or send a customer out the door with load data that was going to detonate a rifle or hurt someone.

Since that time I've used a few grains, make that pounds of of Blue Dot in my 19's and also in 22-250 and 223. It works as advertised.

For you who don't want to try it, thats your problem. You are missing out on a good thing.

THANKS SEAFIRE.

Best wishes, Bill

I have only tried Seafire's methods in 222, 30-06, 7.7X58, and 338 Mag and they all do very well.
In fact, they do so well that my 222 does not remember what a "normal" powder load is like, same story with one of my 06s and the 7.7. The amazing thing is, that the accuracy load using the same bullet in the 06 and 7.7 are directly proportional to the case volume. I doubt this would happen too many times. Too bad I have never put my 308 together to test the theory! Good excuse to chuck that barrel up and get the gun finished.

quote:

Originally posted by STINGER:

Johns answer is just about verbatim of what I received from Ben Ammonete (SP) from Alliant.

Sounds good - I'll shut up. (retires )