I often peruse the Bench Rest Centerfire forum to glean any accuracy tips that may pop up that pertain to my search for accuracy in my Varminters.
I have done this for many years. And over those years I have made maybe 10 postings (mostly questions for the BR types).
Over the years though I have noticed on occassion a "disdain" shall we say for Varminters that make claims regarding the accuracy of their Rifles - this "disdain" is sometimes expressed by some BR types over there on those forums and from time to time here on this forum!
So be it!
A couple of days ago I read a brand new posting over there on BR Centerfire making especially mean spirited contentions and dares directed at ANY Varmint Rifle user.
That posting has now been removed!
So be it!
But the sentiment expressed by that one BR poster again reminds me of some discussions on this forum from time to time where BR types in their "holier than thou" attitudes try to heap upon Varminters their own version of "accuracy" and how they feel "EVERYONE" (even Varminters and Big Game Hunters) should comply with how everyone must compete in THEIR type competitions before anyone can profess or espouse the accuracy of their Rifles.
In other words if a Varmint Hunter or a Big Game Hunter wishes to relay the accuracy of his Rifle (or pistol!) to others of a like mind - that relaying of accuracy is not valid unless said Rifle has been entered in a registered BR Match and applicable match fees paid and dues for one of the fueding BR organizations paid up in full!
Otherwise any claims for accuracy from a Varmint or Big Game Rifle are not valid!
I call bull shit on that - and, I put anyone notice that I will contend otherwise if I become aware of such ludicrous contentions being made in the future by any uppity BR types that may make that mistake, again.
Don't get me wrong I know many, many BR types and for the very most part they are splendid fellows.
About 5% of them though are severe pains in the asses!
Including one I know that runs a large BR shooting fest in the mid-west every year!
So be that!
Yeah, I gotta gripe with the BR type that denigrated the Varminters with his uppity assed posting (like I say it was just now deleted - by whom I am not sure though?)!
And along with that gripe I have a suggestion for solving this perceived (by me) "mis-communication" shall we say!
I feel (and suggest) that is perfectly valid for any Varminter (or Big Game Hunter) to quote the best group his Rifle has ever fired! And that "best ever" quote should be relayed to those being communicated with as just that! Additionally a Varminter is perfectly righteous in relaying the last few groups his Rifle has shot! Let the BR types be offended by this if they choose to! But I do not find it to be misleading or mean spirited in any way, shape or form!
This posting on BR Centerfire was just the last straw for me!
I appreciate all who give specifics here about how their Rifles shoot. And I feel it is not mandatory that one join a BR society and travel many hundreds of miles to pay a fee to shoot in a match and get a notarized "agg" before they communicate their impressions of the accuracy of their Rifle!
The BR game in my opinion is a waste of perfectly good Rifle barrels, time, energy, expense and vehicle fuels! All of which could be much better utilized Hunting Varmints.
More on this to follow as an interested gun buyer has arrived at my home!
Long live BR types (those with humility).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Please give the address of the site you are referring to.

It is stated as it is. N.S.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=6

Eddie harren: This is the site I was referring to. Like I said the derogatory (offensive) posting was deleted by unknown persons. Still the site is worth perusing on occassion.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I concur with your sentiments for the most part. Having to "prove" how well a rifle shoots by entering it in competition is very far-fetched in my estimation.
One of the things that does bug me is a shooter, because his rifle shot one small group, claiming it will always do that. We've all seen fluke groups that never reappear.
As a varminter, I'm very concerned about the rifle's common accuracy. What can I depend on when shooting several hundred rounds in one day?

Just was on a big hunt in Wyoming with a number of other varminters (truth comes out when everyone is watching ). Shots were taken from 15 to over 800yds, from benches to off-hand (boy could Leon shoot from the standing position!), and with a variety of rifles. Saw a couple of .22WMRs and a .17HMR that had more hits at over 100 yds than some of the centerfires...rifles or shooters, don't know.

quote:

truth comes out when everyone is watching

Maybe this is why!

Competition and shooting at game or informal shooting are all somewhat different. Each requires skill to do well.

Since I only ever go shoot prairie dogs/coyotes with my son ...that makes a grand total of two people who will need to know the accuracy potential of our rifles and us as shooters.... the rest I don't much give a damn what they think.
Never been much for shooting paper anyway...bores me...no reaction. I do it as part of the process of sight in. Once I'm done with that I go about the target acquisition looking for hair.

VG-

So true on the comments about Benchrest Central. They are an elitist group.

But, don't they have a "factory gun" type forum? I haven't been there in a while (for many of the reasons that you mentioned), but I seem to remember it.

Unfortunately, some "competitors" tend to get carried away. I was at our local club last week shooting on the 100 yard line. Another guy noticed my rifle & walked over to see what it was. (It's a Shilen "benchrest" gun that I use to kill informal paper & unlucky groundhogs). He started with the "Yeah, anyone can shoot decent at 100 yards, but you should come back to the 600 yard line where us REAL men shoot. THEN we'd see what you can do.". I just said yeah, sounds interesting, maybe some day I will, sounds like fun. What I *didn't* say was that I hold an NRA Long Range Master classification card, and have shot on that range a bunch of times. Seems that the 600 yard prone matches spurred interest in 600 yd F-class (scope/bipod) shooting, which is good. But this guy can't do either, so he wants to shoot the F-class matches off of a bench, with what is basically a machine rest. Says it's still 600 yards, so what's the difference? His ego can't handle being beat, so he has to try and compensate by bending & twisting the rules until he finds something that he can do. The rest of the guys finally agreed, and created a new class, just for him! He has about three guys shooting "600 yard benchrest", and is happy to brag about his scores. Funny thing is, guys shooting off of the ground on their bellies still beat him, but he conveniently leaves that part out, cause after all, he's in a separate "class" now.

Overall, competitors tend to be a good crowd, but the ones who take it too serious ruin it for the rest. I've practically quit shooting competitively for just that reason. A small handful of guys (in different disciplines, and even different places) starting taking the fun out of it. So I now shoot for fun, and pretty much just stay away from the competitions any more. Sad too, cause sometimes I miss it.

I'm sorry to hear that you were treated rudely on BR Central. Wilbur doesn't usually put up with meaness on that site. I believe that there are many participants on that site that are not BR shooters. I also know a couple of BR shooters that are dickweeds. Most of the BR shooters that Sara and I shoot with are very considerate and helpful. It is one of the reasons that we've stuck with it all these years. We always make it a point to help new shooters and encourage them to get into it.
I know we all have been around the guy that has a 40X or Sako at home (never seems to bring it to the range)that shoots "dime size" groups at 300 yds. with factory ammo. I, like most shooters, ignore them and go on about my business. Some people take it personal and go on the attack. There has been a running "pissing contest" between two egoists on Xtreme Accuracy that has,for me anyway, ruined what once was my favorite site. Try not to let the actions of a few form your opinion of a great group of really good people. Eddie

VG's complaint is common on many boards. It seems to happen to all of us at one time or another. I was thinking about it and what we can do to reduce the rude behavior as it just takes away from what we like.

When we meet someone in person we usually smile or shake hands. On the forums that can't be done but perhaps something else can to defuse the hot heads.

Take for instance the sign off of djpaintles which is "remember this is just for fun" or the one I have used once in a while "to each his own".

It's like going up to the zerox machine when somebody is already there and asking "can I run this off" rather than the more successful "can I run this off, they are waiting for it in the meeting"

It takes a little longer to have some greeting or sign off in print but we do it face to face and if we don't that it might not go well either!

Just a suggestion (to myself as well).

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
About 5% of them though are severe pains in the asses!
Long live BR types (those with humility).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, while you and I have squared off from time to time on various topics, I agree with you on this.
I call it the 2-98 Rule. 2% of the people cause 98% of the problems.
Most of the BR guys at the range I frequent (load development and maybe a little bragging’ rights) are usually more than willing to help a “kid†along.
I guess I’m a kid when most of the guys are 70+ years old!
My point is MOST of these guys are cool about sharing/helping, etc. when I show REAL interest about improving accuracy. The rest are a**holes, for the most part.

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Since I only ever go shoot prairie dogs/coyotes with my son ...that makes a grand total of two people who will need to know the accuracy potential of our rifles and us as shooters.... the rest I don't much give a damn what they think.
Never been much for shooting paper anyway...bores me...no reaction. I do it as part of the process of sight in. Once I'm done with that I go about the target acquisition looking for hair.

You sir have hit the nail on the head.

I noticed most of the BR and serious target guys out at my range started as varmint hunters. Some of the younger ones still varmint hunt.
But the opposite is not often true.
Hmmmmm?

Skb2706, as for target shooting, paper bores me too, so I use all kinds of different stuff to make it interesting like:
Clays. I keep shooting until they disappear.
Hard candy. I use generic candy in the twist wrapper, hanging from a clothespin hot glued to a piece of 2X4 or out of the wrapper sitting on golf tees @100 yards. I buy all this stuff at the $1 store.
Balloons stapled to a piece of scrap wood @100 yards. You can make them any size you want or hang them from string tied to a branch. Wind can make it interesting.
Old metal frying pans, etc. Goodwill hunting takes on new meaning.

After all, a man’s got to practice to keep up his skills.

Cold Bore: Amen on the shooting for fun! And the more along the merrier is my motto!
I can not even guess the number of neophytes I have taken along on Varmint Safaris of one type or another! 100+ would be my guess.
I enjoy sharing the hard learned and the obvious with others! And that is why I lurk there on the BR Centerfire board! I occassionally get some nifty bits of wisdom from them.
I won't quit going there because of the 1 out of 1,000 posts that demeans Varminters and their equipment.
What my gripe is, is, that on this board now and then a BR type poo-poo's the fine irons (Varmint Rifles) that many of us use and yearn for!
And again my solution to this "mis-communication" between Varminters (and Big Game Hunters) and some BR types is for when one is relaying "the best group ones Rifle ever shot" that the one doing the relaying make that point clear! I won't think any less of someone who tells me (or us) that his rig shoot a .156" five shot group last month! I can assess that declaration for myself! And I do. But the better way is for one to relay that ones Rifle once shot a .156" five shot group. And follow that up with - thats the best group it ever shot! And - that rig normally shoots in the high 3's - or what ever.
I always make definitive, the accuracy I report on for a particular Rifle (or load, bullet etc) by recounting the last couple of 100 yard five shot groups a particular arm made with a particular loading!
I appreciate it when others take the time to post the results of their Rifles and load testing. Especially when the poster makes a declarative on particulars of a load, or a bullet of the results of chronographing etc!
I still stick with my gripe that a few "BR" types get "uppity" because they feel all Varmint Rifles can not be righteously described accuracy wise unless said Rifle has produced certified "aggs" at a certified BR Match. Specious (without merit) criticism I think by those certain BR types!

Eddie Harren: Let me be more specific - I personally was not attacked there on the BR board - it was a "blanket" slathering of Varminters and their equipment!
Like I said the mean spirited and petty AND erroneous posting did not last two days on that forum and no one of the 60 or so folks that read it responded to it! I am not sure who deleted it either! It certainly could have been the moderator.
I would just like the folks on the forum here to be able to espouse the impressions of their Rifles accuracy without being denigrated or besmirched by the BR types!
Oh, I also have seen folks tell some whoppers in my time believe me! But I do not see the sense in that or condone it or partake of it!
I had a Varmint Rifle (I still have it in fact!) that would not shoot 2" groups at 100 yards! And I have a 6x18 Leupold variable on it! I fiddled and faddled with that Rifle and the handlaods I made for it for 2 years! And I made numerous public postings on various forums regarding it and my situation. Finally I tried a powder and a bullet that a poster on THIS forum suggested and that hesitant Varminter perked right up and it is now shooting to my liking!
That is the purpose of communication (inquiry and response) in my mind and one of the main reasons this forum is so popular and entertaining.
Now let me rationalize my occassional bits of intemperance, immaturity and intolerance as displayed on occassion by some of my postings!!
I have had people on this forum NUMEROUS times tell outright lies and make massive distortions and once I try to relay corrections and proofs and reality to them in a civil manner and next thing you know (oh so predictably) said person that has been corrected gets into personal attacks of "mois" (me!). I don't tolerate much of that and often respond in kind.
That may not be the best way to handle things but I have found since I turned 50 here a few years back I simply do not suffer fools for as long as I used to!
Let me relay just three examples of untruths I chose to defend against here on this AR Fourm in the last year!
Untruth #1: Wolves ARE NOT harming the Big Game herds and Hunting opportunities in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. This contention is so laughably erroneous I thought the offending posters were just making jokes!
Untruth #2: I have been told I can not shoot a Big Game animal through the heart and lungs without hitting the shoulder bone of said animal. I do attain this exact thing virtually every year - often several times a year, and I know better. In fact I have been doing this "impossibility" for 47 years now (since I was 11 years old).
Untruth #3: I have been "informed" on this forum that a person can not mount his Leupold variable scopes on a Rifle so a full sight picture (field of view) can be obtained at all powers from one hold on the stock. Now before anyone pipes up with an allegation that I am wrong - be informed - I know how to mount Leupold variable scopes AND I have quite a few of them mounted on Rifles right now. About 35 of them in fact! In power ranges from 8.5x25 on down to 2x7's. Yet I know I have had 6 or 7 "experts" tell me I am wrong that my contention is impossible and the folks at the Leupold factory agree with them blah, blah - blah! These "experts" are simply wrong and when I (on numerous ocassions) politely point this out and point out how to properly mount and test ones variable powered Leupold scope for full field of view at all powers - from the same point on the Rfiles stock - I invariably get attacked.
So be it.
But I don't take being attacked lightly and probably won't in the future either!
These are somewhat seperate issues from my main point.
I have never openly, initially and mean spiritedly attacked or offended anyone or any group like the poster over there did on BR Central.
Yeah I give as good as I get and live by the creed if I can't take it don't dish it out! But "I" never start these purposely mean spirited communications and never will. I usually have a purpose in mind with any posting and if a problem crops up I back my contentions with proofs and experiences - not just opinion.
Anyway anyone that has an issue with me or my postings do not hesitate to critique me civilly or with your version of the issue. I am very open to correction and have acknowledged same here on this forum.
Civility is important.
Again long live the BR types - I just wonder "why we can't all just get along" (Rodney King - just before the L.A. riots of 1996).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I must disagree wih you on one point. The BR game is not a waste of good barrels, it is the reason many good barrels exist. I like the fact that they buy so many Hart, Lilja, etc. barrels. I also like the fact that they are so picky that when a barrel starts shooting in the .4 inch group range they yank it and sell it as junk. I buy those and then shoot the hell out of them until they start shooting 1 minute groups then I set them back an inch and keep shooting varmints. It is their elitist arrogance that keeps them spending so much money on barrels and actions. Used bench rest guns can make very good varmint guns. The fallout from bench rest is improved products for the rest of us. Manufacturers like publicity and they get it when a benchrester wins with their gear. I don't think they are going to get much publicity when you have a grand time shooting prarie dogs with their barrels, except in the Varmint Hunter magazine.

I saw one "varminter" manipulate the ego of one arrogant benchrester to the point the benchrester, who had shot a poor group one day, said "The rifle must be worn out, hell I would sell that POS for $100 right now". The varminter pulled out $100 and basically said prove it and the arrogant benchrester went through with the deal because of his ego. Damn nice Searcy action, Hart Barrel, and McMillian stock in 6mm Br. Still shoots better than I can hold it. I really like arrogant benchresters.

I also frequent Benchrest Central and find it one of the most useful sites available to us. Sure, some of the old coots there are cantankerous, but I think they mean well.
I simply avoid the nasty ones. There are a lot of nice guys there also. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

nice one Old Elk Hunter
Got a great big grin after reading that.
With my background of feild shooting I tried to give benchrest shooting ago by attending a shoot specifically desinged to level the playing feild and encourage feild shooters into the sport.
However the atmosphere felt more like they had invited the second class citizens in to squash using their expensive toys.
Big to fleecing them of a nice setup.

I couldn't careless for their attitidude. If I spent that much money I would expect .4 as well but I know it wouldn't make any difference where it actually matters putting meat on the table or getting rid of pests.

Old Elk Hunter: What a great story and outlook! Good for you.
I counter with this disagreement back at ya!
Having been born and raised in what some consider to be the birth place of modern style BR competition (Puget Sound area near Seattle, Washington) and having been regularly attending Gunshows in this same area since 1965. And I have attended a number of BR matches in the same area - I have seen literally several hundred of these used BR barrels for sale. I find them to be just about useless for my needs. You mentioned $100.00 in your scenario and I find that is about the median asking price for these stubby little barrels. Along with these barrels comes a hoarde of unaswerable questions! What brand barrel is this piece of steel? There is no way to ascertain that for certain! Has this barrel been abused by improper cleaning or other forms of neglect and abuse? Has this barrel been on an action used for fireforming and practice shooting - or in other words how many rounds down the barrel? Etc., etc., etc!
Mainly because they are so SHORT is the reason I find them so unsatisfactory! Visualize the normal 6mm PPC take-off barrel already being short at 21 3/4". Then you need to cut new threads on the shank of the barrel and re-chambering it if need be. These things further shorten it and you end up with a 20" (or shorter) 6mm barrel with a BR twist. Again these are some of the reasons I consider BR takeoff barrels next to useless for Varminting - in my opinion!
I whole heartedly endorse buying a NEW, top quality barrel for your Varminting needs. Thus saving the cost of the "used" barrel and the costs involved in fitting it to your Rugchesteravage rig. And then you will get a barrel with the twist and weight and brand that you want! You will then know for sure if the barrel has REALLY been cryoed or not, if it has been cared for properly or not, if it has been broken in properly, etc etc etc.
Old Elk Hunter, do you find that these short take-off BR barrels serve you well in your Varminting needs or do you simply have fun with them at the range?

Cal Sibley: You are right of course, in anyones ability to just ignore intentional mean-ness on any forum.
I have gone one step further in my published criticism of the mean spirited BR poster over at BR Centerfire - in that I made mention of it here AND posted my suggestion on how to deal with these type BR folks that even on occassion on this board demean Varminters and the accuracy of their Rifles. And by dealing with these BR types I mean how can we as Varminters and Big Game Rifle shooters make mention of our Rifles accuracy without suffering the wrath of these somewhat rare, uppity BR types?
I think it would be useful to come up with a somewhat uniform and straight forward way for us Varminters (who are very much accuracy oriented and concerned) to describe our Rifles normal accuracy or best accuracy to each other honestly and objectively.
I again submit it is not a BR related crime of a faux pas of any kind to relate the best groups ones Varminter has ever shot - as long as its noted as that. And perhaps one is not stepping intentionally on the toes of BR types if a Varminter mentions the normal size groups said Varminter produces at a pace and under conditions the Varmint Rifle owner chooses.
Long live the 6mm BR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This is an interesting thread. I am a newbie BR shooter and frequent both benchrest.com and bench-talk.com. Yes, some of those guys are a tremendous pain in the butt, arrogant, and have way to much money to spend. But some of their statements are true. It is frustrating when someone comes on an accuracy/competition forum and starts talking about their new SavRemChester that will shoot 1/4" groups all day long. A rifle that will shoot 1/4" groups all day long would win most of the BR shoots in this country. We have all came up through the varmint rifle ranks, egg shoots, varmint shoots, and have some very accurate varmint rifles. When guys come to the range when I'm practicing with my BR rig, I always hear the stories of how accurate their guns are. I invite them to come shoot in the Factory class at our next event and offer to help them get set up for it. We shoot IBS score, and it usually only takes the first or second target before people start to realize that true benchrest accuracy is not available in a varmint rifle. I have and love Ruger, Savage, Tikka varmint rifles (even had my BR rifle built with a Savage action), but after 5 years of benchrest shooting I can tell you that the guys with the Panda/Nesika/BAT/etc. actions who go through as many as 6 $450 barrels to find a good one are shooting at a level that few of us varmint gurus have ever reached.

A new World Record Grand Aggregate was shot at my range in June when Greg Palman from Maine shot a 250/23X at 100 and 250/15X at 200 for an agg of 500/38X. The record has stood since 1989. That means that he fired 25 record shots at 100 and all but 2 hit the 1/16" X; and 25 shots at 200 and 15 of them hit the 1/8" X. All of this in 101-degree heat with a 10-25 mph switching wind and a boiling mirage. This doesn't condone the arrogance that some of the BR guys have and I try to never get involved in it because I love both the varmint and BR shooting. I stand in awe of guys who have mastered all the things that go into being a competitive BR shooter, have the money to buy the best equipment available, and then have the skill to "read the conditions" and plunk bullets on the X. When you achieve that level and then are constantly bombarded by guys whose $450 Savage with a Tasco scope will shoot 1/4" "all day", it tends to unnerve you a bit.

Benchrest.com does have a "Factory/Hybrid" forum and it is an excellent place to exchange ideas with other varminters. The "Centerfire Benchrest" forum is intended for competitive benchrest shooting-related items and those guys are a tremendous wealth of info if you don't go there with a chip on your shoulder.

Good shooting to all ...

Single-shot: One of the signs of a mature person is one who can take in the BS that some folks (from ALL walks of life!) spread (sometimes with gusto!) and just let it slide off their backs - without getting their hackles up! I mastered this ability at age 21 and it has served me well ever since. I listen to this blather and keep a straight face and mark down in my memory bank the person that is slinging this stuff! Again this will often serve a person well - in various ways on down the line.
And if you think BR types are not capable of OR are above slinging the shit then you sir have another think coming!
I knows! I seen'em!
You are exactly right on when you call the bluffster of these braggadocios and invite them (with gentlemanly demeanor I hope) to attend the next shoot with their Rugchestavage "one-holers"!
My thread was referring to a BR type that made such an insulting and ludicrous and demeaning to Varminters and their equipment posting that someone at the BR forum almost immediately deleted it!
Again, you are right, a few of the BR types are "Major Pains"! But most are grand guys and I have shot right along side them in many a Varmint field!
There is a new light shed, by the way, on those BR types when they are using Varmint type bullets and Varmint type scopes and Varmint safe triggers and there is no row of evenly placed wind flags leading right up to the Varmint and they are not sure exactly how far said Varmints are (at least before Laser Range finders were invented!).
I knows! I seen'em! They are human!
I will just not let you, single-shot or any other BR type demean my equipment, the way I describe the accuracy of my Rifles or me any longer. When the BR types that come around here and other forums from time to time, INSIST that Varminters can not quote their own impressions of the accuracy of their Rifles, using criterion that the Varminters choose to, for the relaying of pertinent accuracy info - and then demean the Varminter for offering up his impressions - well then I call bullshit!
I described in a post again just today the accuracy I obtained from a brand new Varminter AND I clearly relayed that I fired my new Rifle only 12 times today!
Do you think I should not be able to relay that info to others of my ilk?
I think I should be able to.
And no the range I attended today was not an IBS sanctioned (nor NBRSA ) range and I did not fire five, five shot groups under the watchful eye of a rangemaster and have my targets notarized nor did I comply with a strict time limit for my group firings, etc etc etc!
I chose today to shoot because the wind was still and because the sun was low and at my back and because the range I drove to is a 6" deep abandoned irrigation ditch that keeps air movement to a minimum over the 300' to my target. And I was actually doing load testing. Once my load testing is done with my new Rifle then it will sit and await its turn in my rotation of Varmint Rifles for its turn to go on Safari! No endless paper punching for it, no sir!
If you enjoy spending the time, money, effort and intensity on BR competition then I say MORE power to you!
I simply think it is a waste of time, money, effort and good barrel steel to sit on a bench and pound bullet after bullet through "paper"! I prefer fur on my targets!
And if after you have invested the required time, effort and expenses and travelled to a BR Match and fire at your targets you have the "satisfaction" of knowing you can "outguess" the conditions better (or worse!) than your neighbor by .100" for you "aggs" then again MORE power to you!
I often cite the results from a National Championship BR Match that was posted on the BR forum site - there was a winner in this match of course, but the next 60 finishers in the match all finished with "aggs" that were less than 1/10th of an inch larger than the winner. Is that worth firing up the motor home and travelling across the country for?
Not in my eyes - not by a long shot. Especially when one is travelling RIGHT through good Varmint country to get to a match!
Nope the initial posting I made was not to demean BR types - let them have their version of fun, but when the BR types insist that a Varminter join one of the BR organizations (and join in on the fun of that feud!) and pay to enter a match and pound 50 plus bullets down the barrel for "aggs" before WE (Varminters and Big Game Rifle users) can espouse the accuracy of our equipment then I think that has gone TO FAR!
I stated my gripe and I stand by it!
I also stated my proposed solution to the few BR uppitys that now and then demean the way we Varminters and Big Game Rifle users declare the accuracy of our equipment!
My solution - I will repeat - is for Varminters and Big Game Rifle users to continue to relay the accuracy of their Rifles amongst each other and when citing group size - to declare that a groups size is the best ever group ones Rifle has shot if that applies or to make it clear that ones Rifle "usually" shoots groups of what ever size. I prefer myself to relate the last couple of five shot groups the Rifle I am discussing has made! I find nothing missleading or mischevious or unethical about this type regimen.
Like I stated at the beginning - let BS roll off your back like rain on a Duck! It won't hurt you!
I just spent 3 days sitting for 8+ hours a day right next to a guy at a Gunshow. He relayed to me and all who stopped by my and his tables, story after story after story - NONSTOP - about his searches for Yehtis', Bigfoots, Sasquatches and Man-Bears! I mean it drove person after person away from my table. I never once cracked a tell tale snicker or a smile. My Gunshow "neighbor" would just not let the subject be changed from his exploits, explorations and treks around the world that he had made. Many folks openly laughed at him - but I had a plan in outwaiting his musings. I wanted to know where he had killed Bears in a long mountain range near my home in Montana while he was searching for the Abominal Snowman. I got the info I wanted and I also sold him a pistol and some Jade that I had laying around for years!
I do much the same with other BS'ers - I glean any legitimate info that may possibly be there and then usaully move on without making a fuss. Now and then I choose to call the BS'ers on their BS but that is not often. A danger to the BS'ers or innocent bystanders almost always earns them a correction by me. They can choose to accept the correction or not.
By the way welcome to the AR Varminting Forum!
Long live BR.
Long live Varminting!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,

You are right - most of the barrels are on the short side. I just fire up the lathe and make them fit usually a Rem M600. This makes a short easy to handle Jeep gun. Since they are cheap enough and I don't have to pay a smith to do the work, I don't mind playing with them. They are great when you get into a field thick with sage rats and you can shoot fast without much concern for the barrel getting hot. I know that is is abusing the barrel, but that is what they were bought for. Sometimes you get a really nice barrel that someone has left at 24 or 26 inches. Several of these have been keepers and have lasted several years. I am lucky that
I know a bunch of old farts that are accuracy nuts but not benchrest shooters. I often get great barrels
from them when they get bored with a barrel and want to try something else. These generally are longer barrels. One man's shot out barrel can be another man's coyote getter. My preferred rifle has a 26 inch
barrel in 6mmBR. I take good care of that barrel. I will probably never wear it out.

VarmintGuy, I read what you write about letting it "roll off your back" and then you go on to a rant about it. Still sorry you got "your hackles up" over on BR Central. I still say that the great majority of the BR shooters I have known, over the last 18 years of competitive shooting, have turned out to be some of my best friends. Peace!

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Single-shot: One of the signs of a mature person is one who can take in the BS that some folks (from ALL walks of life!) spread (sometimes with gusto!) and just let it slide off their backs - without getting their hackles up!
...My thread was referring to a BR type that made such an insulting and ludicrous and demeaning to Varminters and their equipment posting that someone at the BR forum almost immediately deleted it!
Again, you are right, a few of the BR types are "Major Pains"!
But most are grand guys and I have shot right along side them in many a Varmint field!

Long live BR.
Long live Varminting!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
VarmintGuy, I read what you write about letting it "roll off your back" and then you go on to a rant about it. Still sorry you got "your hackles up" over on BR Central. I still say that the great majority of the BR shooters I have known, over the last 18 years of competitive shooting, have turned out to be some of my best friends. Peace!

Eddieharren, VarmintGuy said SOME, not all are major pains.
I highlighted it for you…
He also said that MOST are not, same as you did.

I have found that it helps if you read what is written and make comments based on what the posts actually say. I have been bitten by this myself a time or two.

VarmintGuy, yet another day when I agree AND support what you said.
We better mark this day on the calendar, too…

All forums have the nice helpful people and the pain in the asses. I've learned tons from Benchrest.com when it comes to precision shooting.

One thing I see many (none B/R) shooter do is that they quote the smallest groups they ever shot and say "my rifle can shot XXX size groups." Well, maybe once.

When looking at the accuracy of a rifle and specially in B/R shooting, the smallest group size you shot means nothing. The group size that you can consistantly shoot means everything. You learn that very quickly when you shoot for aggs.

But VG, I agree with you in the fact that some of them show elitist attitudes. Most of them have been very nice and helpful in getting me started,

Regards,
Kory

I agree with you about the uppity BR Shooters. If I could figure out how to post a pic on this site, I'd post the targets with the groups from my .221 Fireball (.323 dia. 3 shots) and .204 Ruger (.378 dia w/32 grains 3 shots and .510 dia w 5 shots). My .223 & .22-250 shoots a little big but I can cover all ten shots at 100 yards with a 50 cent piece. That means 10 dead prairie dogs to me.

Or should I post them on the BR Forum?

On second thought, I guess I did! Thats the .221 Fireball group in my Avatar! (heh heh)

I would have to say that, though Ive seen many accurate varmint rifles those who claim their rifles shoot half inch groups have been , well in 99% lying.It happens once in a while even with a lever action 30/30 but constantly? No.
And in benchrest we are talking groups under half inch,,,, always.
What Im trying to say is that benchresters have the proof on paper but varminters (and I am one of them) well, dont.
So dont feel bad, its allfun anyhow.
Össi Iceland.
PS: Did I tell you about my new H&R in ,223 that shoots "cloverleaf" groups?

This has nothing to do with BR per se, but everything to do with the mindset central to the discussion.

I started shooting clays around early '98 and jumped in with both size 12s(feet and gauge) real quick. Thing I saw real fast though was that some people did it for fun, and a few were so serious as to be silly. They were as notorious in the local arena as a troll might be in this format.

Now there was this one silverhair in the crowd that was so serious about the whole thing that it would make a train wreck seem humorous. During a SC shoot he's change his chokes between each station, quibble with himself about whether to use 8-1/2 or 9 shot, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I saw him brow beat scorers into awarding 'deads' when no part of the clay was struck by shot, a routine that only newbie scorers would argue. The guy was Le Infant Terrible and an embarrassment to the sport. Nobody liked to do a round with him, nobody liked to follow him.

After awhile(couple of years) I developed a change of heart about it though. I was still having fun with it(shooting clays) but needed more of a challenge. So the next tourney came around and I got the range master to put me in his foursome. Yeah, it was done with malice and forethought. Now as much as I enjoy the sport I am adverse to making it the center of my life. I put the same loads in my vest as I use for skeet, 7/8 oz #9, the Beretta choked Skeet 1 &2. Period. I don't take other chokes with me, and don't mix shot sizes. I go out to have fun, shoot what I shoot and not get all spooled up about it like so many do. I saw early on how poorly some otherwise decent folks prostitute themselves over the game and it weren't my style.

Anyway, the funny thing about this fella is that he wasn't that good a shot in the first place, I guess he was as B or maybe a marginal A class. There's almost always better guns out there though. What separates go getters from wannabes at the place where this all happened was the owner of the facility. He could and often did set up an easy run for the first course, then a real ego buster for the second. Lots of teal, high tower, incomers from a Looong way out. Sneaky rabbits too. Typical cracker mentality. Well this yo-yo shooter always wanted to see somebody else shoot each station before he did and that was fine with me. Because of his nature he just KNEW that everybody did the same things he did with loads and chokes. Comes the 'quail' station, true pairs that crossed at about 25 yards, quartering away from about 10 yards right to left. He goes 8 for 10, muttering about everything wrong in the world of sporting clays, trappers, etc. Well hell, they were crossing weren't they? 5 shots, 10 broken clays, more background muttering. On the second occasion that I ran true pairs like that he asked as casually as he could what chokes I used. Told him M/M. Shot? 7-1/2 sez I. "Hmmm" sez he. The other two shooters in the group looked at me a bit funny, maybe because they KNEW I hadn't changed choke one or reached into my magic pocket for silver bullets. Well, one of them was a crack shot and had a sense of humor too. By the time we finished the course we offered a few more "tips", and watched our man-child have a complete melt down. My 'assistant' finished with a 99, I did my usual high 80s, and our victim had a 72 IIRC. Stomped off to his truck and left in a huff without even waiting for the scores to be posted.

In retrospect I'd say it was worth the effort. I'd also say it was as sad as it was funny at the time. The lesson here, if any, shooting and hunting are about fun and relaxation. If you find yourself unable to laugh at your gaffes, or maybe grinding your teeth, well, maybe you need to find another pastime. Maybe golf...

And if somebody else's attitude starts to rain on yours, take the high road and never look back. Life is too short for sour memories.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
This has nothing to do with BR per se, but everything to do with the mindset central to the discussion.
…I saw early on how poorly some otherwise decent folks prostitute themselves over the game and it weren't my style.

The lesson here, if any, shooting and hunting are about fun and relaxation. If you find yourself unable to laugh at your gaffes, or maybe grinding your teeth, well, maybe you need to find another pastime. Maybe golf...

And if somebody else's attitude starts to rain on yours, take the high road and never look back.
Life is too short for sour memories.

Good post DD.

Unfortunately this mindset runs through almost everything that is supposed to be fun, including golf.

I coached a local “Kid Sports†softball team about 10 years ago when my daughter was playing. You would not believe the amount of crap some parents heaped on their kids.
Some of whom had never played before, and probably never played again.
Needless to say, I don’t coach anymore.

Sorry for using quotes jorge.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
The lesson here, if any, shooting and hunting are about fun and relaxation.

Hey Dan,

It should be, but this forum is an good example of why it is not. It is next to impossible to state you opinion without a bunch of people telling you why your wrong. Most of the time now, when someone asked a question that I think I can answer, I just send them a PM and avoid the pissing contest.

Regards,
Kory

Kory, Flippy, Ossi_Iceland and others: Again I say - it would be inappropriate and misleading for a Varminter or a Big Game Hunter to relay to others that his Rifle "shoots" .200" groups (or what ever) when it has only done so ONCE!
I agree, and posted same here, early on!
I do not think it is missleading for a Varminter or a Big Game Hunter to relay that his Rifles best performance group wise was .200" groups (or what ever). I stated this previously and stand by it.
I also feel that it is the responsibility of the Varminter or Big Game Hunter to relay the normal grouping ability of their Rifle, under conditions the Varminter or Big Game Hunter chooses.
I want information on - the Rifles ability, first and foremost. On MANY an occassion I have inquired beyond just the initial "boast" regarding someones Rifle into what it "usually does" accuracy wise. This is not usually difficult to do, and I have only been burned a time or two when I went ahead and bought said Rifle from said "boaster"! Only to get home with the Rifle and find that it is nowhere near capable of "advertised" (boasted) accuracy!
Oh well - buyer beware!
And Ossi_Iceland we are here on the Varmint Board of the AR Forum and most of us are not Bench Resters, but are VERY interested in accuracy with Varmint bullets and Varmint scopes and Varmint Rifles! By the way I own quite a number of Varmint Rifles that will shoot consistently under 1/2" groups using Varmint bullets, Varmint scopes and Varmint safe triggers!
Comparing Varmint Rifles with Bench Rest Rifles is like comparing Ferrari cars with Formula One Racers! They both get the job done but one is definitely a better performer and then only one is safe enough to be street legal (more common use?).
My original post was to elucidate the problem that I see so often crop up and to propose a solution.
I stand by both contentions.
Other suggestions are welcome.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy