quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
There are several good books about the Buffalo in North America, some of a scientific/naturalist bent and some the recollections of hunters and military personnel.

I have read more than one account, that some historians dispute, concerning the idea that during the period of the Indian Wars, post commanders would give civilians ammunition if they would use it to kill buffalo simply to starve the Indians into submission. No actual records were kept that would prove or disprove such claims, but, rumors sometime or quite to have an element of truth in them.

I am hoping Lane can help me obtain the materials he mentioned.

There is a book, "Thundersticks", that discusses the influence of firearms on Native Americans. There are some figures in that book on numbers of buffalo hides sold by natives to trading companies, and the numbers surprised me. The book also discusses in some detail the commerce in firearms, which was considerable. Firearms and horses together transformed whole tribes.

I was also a little unsettled by the discussion of slavery in Native America, widespread and not a trivial practice.

Damn,

Is it really all that complicated that we need books and psycho annalisis on what is as clear as a bell...

Dollars and cents in a weak economy, no jobs and a way to make money to feed your self and your family. We didn't need 8 million buffalo in the way of advancement so we used an available resource..The buffalo is now back in abundant and usable numbers, it was not a catastrophy, it was nothing more than a glitch in history. We certainly don't need 8 to 10 million buffalo in the USA, that would be problematic and a real catastrophy..We as Americans, Canadians, Africans, Australians, and other are the greatest conservative of wild life in the modern world..Its a constant fight but we have a handle on it in most countries, why because its financially productive, again dollars ands cents.

quote:

Is it really all that complicated that we need books and psycho annalisis on what is as clear as a bell...

I believe it is what is called revisionist history. A person does not like real history, so they search for ways to re-write it to be more palatable to them and those that think the way they do.

They are trying to do it pretty much with ALL American History from Columbus to Trump's Election. They have been working on it in our Public Schools for 4 decades or so.

Ive tested hundreds of cattle for Bangs, and our testing method is less than perfect..Ive seen cows that were chased and got hot test positive so you put them in a holding pen and test them again when they are not stressed and they test clean..I have even tested this over and over for myself...I am sure of one thing and Brucilloses is somewhat of an overplayed desease as compared to so many other deseases we should be working on..Out of several herds Ive seen that ended up destroying some cattlemen only about 3 to 4 percent of the calves were sluffed..Im no expert and I may not be the last word on the problem, but my opinion seems to be at least partially correct, but Im not a vet..

I don't see Bruceloses (Bangs) as real part of a huge die off of Buffalo, TB, Anthrax and others would be more likely. I also see a large number of hide hunters shooting buffalo at "stands" and killing a whole herd at one shooting simply by lung shooting every animal, in which case Buffalo don't run until one of the shots is out of the lungs then then that bull takes off and the rest follow. Then we had a lot of guys sitting on top of a train car killing thousands of buffalo at one sitting, The RR encouraged this. These kind of hunting number and kills are contrary to some reports by "experts" and book scribes being human may tend have an agenda, that makes them popular an famous..Not being derogatory just investigative, and raising some angles that may have yet to be discovered are chased...I have a hunch that mass killing of any animal can take its tole in some circumstances. I have seen overhunting nearly inialate a number of animals.

I did not see your response until today, but I can see no reason to dispute your comments.

From my experience over the past 5 years, buffalo can and will reproduce at an unbelievable rate, and in all actuality, even during the days when herd numbers were so high, humans were the major predator.

I credit most of the literature placing the reasons for the decline in buffalo numbers, to that of history revisionists.

They simply do not want to accept the idea that humans could accomplish that kind of destruction.

http://www.buffalofieldcampaig...oresbisonecology.pdf

Flores is the fellow who did the work that gives the insight Ledvm cites Derr on. Derr repeated what Flores stated and then supported it up with DNA work.

The Final collapse of the Buffalo is really not in doubt for me. Yes man caused. But; TB and Bangs are both "man caused" from the import of the cattle carrying the disease, and yes so is shooting them. The question is, how many buffalo were involved in that final collapse? 3.5 million certainly. 10 million doubtful. 60 million certainly not.

The 60 million estimate is what some claimed the population may have been when Europeans first arrived in the late 1400's/early 1500's.

Agreed. May have been. I thought it interesting that the buffalo dropped off the fossil record a couple of times before the time period we are referring to. Also the Drought history of the Great Plains was interesting. We humans tend to think only of our lifetime, our parents life time and maybe once in a while, our grandparents. Life on the Great Plains has been here a while. Now living in Kansas, I am glad we don't have 3-6 Million head of Buffalo moving through here twice a year. I am glad however that we have a huge herd of Ted Turners buffalo in SW Kansas.

From my research Buffalo/Bison never really dropped of the fossil records as their were several subspecies evolving roughly during the same time periods, with the Plains Bison/Wood Bison and Wisent in Europe being the only subspecies to be successful after the Ice Ages ended.

Randall:

Have you read The Life of Billy Dixon'? Lot's of it took place in your part of Texas. The original book is a whole lot different than the rewritten one from tx state his/soc. Get the 1926 original IF you can find it.

Just reading something a couple days ago: "over 3 million ton of buffalo bones were shipped back east for fertliser". I've been to Regina, never saw or heard of them having those bones. Guess I missed it going both ways thru town. Even stopped for a few beers and eats. Nice little town. So was Lethbridge.

Can't spell anyway, getting tired, good night.
George

Yes the area where Lora and I live is on the southeastern edge of what was Comancheria. J. Wright Mooar killed a white buffalo over near present day Snyder Texas about 80/90 miles west of Olney. They have a statue of a white buffalo on the Court House lawn.

Another question is, what happened to all the pronghorns? I remember reading about an estimated population of 100-200 million antelope in North America before the white man arrived. I have no idea how that estimate was derived.

Since pronghorn skeletons are not as durable as buffalo skeletons are, it is harder to poinpoint why their numbers declined.

Hunting by both whites and indians probably had some effect, also if a person has monitored pronghorns in modern times, several things including weather seem to affect pronghorns more than other species, fencing of the prairies played a role.

From what I have read concerning Pronghorns and their evolution they seem to be a species that basically reached peak numbers wise and numbers of variations and have been in a slow and steady decline ever since.

I also had read where some folks estimated there were more pronghorns than buffalo, when buffalo numbers were at their peak.

Just curious. Was the place called "Pile of bones" at or near a pishkin? We used to pick through some of those in the area around Choteau, Mt. Plenty of buffalo died in those places. Choteau is on what was called the "Great North Trail" I believe. Lots of interesting stuff in that country.

That is quite possible.

There's a book I think it was call The last of the buffalo hunters.

An interesting read.