I just paused "Around the World in Eighty Days" starring David Niven and Cantinflas. Cantinflas has just completed no-kill bullfight, circa 1872. Obtaining possibly accurate information via Internet search, bulls for the ring have been specially bred and nurtured for perhaps a thousand years.

Bullfighting remains popular as kill and no-kill entertainment in a substantial part of the world. Has anyone anywhere used southern African cape buffalo as the "bulls" for the ring? I suspect a kill bullfight might prove fatal for the buffalo about 45 minutes after the executioner (matador??) had been smashed to a red stain. But no-kill bullfights would significantly ramp up the skill and quickness necessary to entertain.

In all honesty, the bull used in the movie seemed neither formidable nor quick. Most likely the bull was selected because of these characteristics.

Portuguese bullfighting is nothing like the Spanish version. They use tipped and less macho bulls expressly to avoid the gory part. Southern buffalo or wild water buffalo would be impossible. Hey, did you know that good Italian mozzarella cheese is from domesticated water buffalo cows?

Interesting historical info. Cantiflas was so revered in the Latin community that when he died there was a 3 day mourning period in Mexico City.

I’ve wondered myself if a more “wild” bull or buffalo would be better or not.
I believe there is an element of show to the build and stance of the premier bulls like Miuras. Incidentally, Lamborghini’s greatest car was called the Miura.
They are beautiful - the bulls and the cars!
I would think that a cape buffalo in the ring would guarantee certain death to the matador. I remember two bulls we had from my youth. Jove and Heartness.
Jove was an absolutely huge bull and we were warned not to even go near his pen.
Not sure you would want any bull scarier than him face to face with a human.

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Originally posted by Huvius:
I’ve wondered myself if a more “wild” bull or buffalo would be better or not.
I believe there is an element of show to the build and stance of the premier bulls like Miuras. Incidentally, Lamborghini’s greatest car was called the Miura.
They are beautiful - the bulls and the cars!
I would think that a cape buffalo in the ring would guarantee certain death to the matador. I remember two bulls we had from my youth. Jove and Heartness.
Jove was an absolutely huge bull and we were warned not to even go near his pen.
Not sure you would want any bull scarier than him face to face with a human.

Funny you mention that because I often thought of how one of those effeminate Spanish "Bullfighters" would make out in the ring with a Cape Buffalo

THAT I would pay to see!

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind taking on a cape buffalo in a bullfight scenario. It might be interesting to watch, kinda, but it would be a short show. I don't agree however that the Spanish bullfighters are effeminate; they dress traditionally but let's face it, they are doing a dangerous sport.

When I was in high school the senior Spanish class got to Mexico. One of the experiences was bull fighting. They cut that out when I got into Senior year. I did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador.

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did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador

I'm betting they could have used the grounds "clean-up" crew to better advantage.
I'm sure that there was no shortage of "BS" in the House.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind taking on a cape buffalo in a bullfight scenario. It might be interesting to watch, kinda, but it would be a short show. I don't agree however that the Spanish bullfighters are effeminate; they dress traditionally but let's face it, they are doing a dangerous sport.

We could work our way, starting with a bison bull. Not quite a Cape buffalo, but definitely more challenging.

Grizz

Reminds me of a song.........

"Oh they look like cows but they're water buffaloes
Everybody's heading for the Watusi Rodeo"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=StPPeXiQIro

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Originally posted by DocEd:

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did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador

I'm betting they could have used the grounds "clean-up" crew to better advantage.
I'm sure that there was no shortage of "BS" in the House.

I swear. There were 6 members of the House present for some damn vote. No one invoked a voice vote which requires a quorum to be present. Four members were asleep.

Hell, I use to think our best went to D.C. I still do not know how to get to DC, but damnation.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

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Originally posted by DocEd:

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did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador

I'm betting they could have used the grounds "clean-up" crew to better advantage.
I'm sure that there was no shortage of "BS" in the House.

I swear. There were 6 members of the House present for some damn vote. No one invoked a voice vote which requires a quorum to be present. Four members were asleep.

Hell, I use to think our best went to D.C. I still do not know how to get to DC, but damnation.

If Congress is the womb of our democracy, it is in dire need of a curettage.

Grew up in Brownsville Texas, right across the border, way before cable. Watched a lot of bullfights on the Mexican TV channel. Love bull fights. Those bulls are little but bred to fight. One place that size doesn't matter. I got to know a huge Charolais bull, who tried to be aggressive, but was a real pussycat in reality. You could put your fingers in his his nostrils and literally lead him around by the nose. Until he got interested in a cow in the next pasture and laid down 200 yards of fence to go on his date. That took a lot of fixing.

No way anyone could bullfight a Cape Buffalo -- and live.

There are the Japanese bullfights in Okinawa ,saw it once and on YT on Lonely Planet tv with that fellow whos a bit of a germ ,who walked off because he didnt like it ,but Lonely Planet books etc are very ANTI

I don’t see a whole lot of difference between a fighting bull and syncerus caffer caffer. Roughly the same size. Both rather aggressive and will fight to survive. I grew up with a big Angus bull called JonBoy. We were arch nemeses. He ran me out of many a pen and over many a fence but never caught me. I peppered his black hide with many a rock and bb. One day I was bragging how I wasn’t afraid of him. My Pop suggested I flick his nut sack to prove it. I declined. But Pop was feeling his oats and did exactly that. He snuck behind him as his head was in the hay rack and flicked his nutsack with authority and quickly made his escape. We boys were greatly impressed to say the least.

I have been in Spain.

I enjoyed it, but it is not something we are used to seeing.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind taking on a cape buffalo in a bullfight scenario. It might be interesting to watch, kinda, but it would be a short show. I don't agree however that the Spanish bullfighters are effeminate; they dress traditionally but let's face it, they are doing a dangerous sport.

While I must agree that matadors have steely nerve, I cannot agree with your last statement. There's nothing sporting about tormenting an animal to death. As ethical hunters we all strive to take down our prey quickly and cleanly in order to minimize suffering, not wound them repeatedly for entertainment purposes. I'd go to watch, only if they put the bullfighters in the ring in their underpants and chased them around with pointy sticks.

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Originally posted by cdsx:

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind taking on a cape buffalo in a bullfight scenario. It might be interesting to watch, kinda, but it would be a short show. I don't agree however that the Spanish bullfighters are effeminate; they dress traditionally but let's face it, they are doing a dangerous sport.

While I must agree that matadors have steely nerve, I cannot agree with your last statement. There's nothing sporting about tormenting an animal to death. As ethical hunters we all strive to take down our prey quickly and cleanly in order to minimize suffering, not wound them repeatedly for entertainment purposes. I'd go to watch, only if they put the bullfighters in the ring in their underpants and chased them around with pointy sticks.

I’m as ethical as the next guy but I’d be lying if I didn’t say that to me there is something elegant about a bullfight.

It is elegant + takes some balls as well. I agree that I am not into tormenting animals, however, this is a traditional Spanish sport + we know how much they value machismo. I still call it a sport. It has only been about 80 years since we 'civilized' nations stopped doing bare-knuckles boxing.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
It is elegant + takes some balls as well. I agree that I am not into tormenting animals, however, this is a traditional Spanish sport + we know how much they value machismo. I still call it a sport. It has only been about 80 years since we 'civilized' nations stopped doing bare-knuckles boxing.

Probably best you don't ask my opinion on boxing, while we're at it....

I've never really been a fan of boxing either. I remember in 1964 (if memory serves) when Cassius Clay (pre-Ali) took out Sonny Liston in the 1st round for a total K.O. The guys that paid $100.00 for front row never even got to their seats.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I've never really been a fan of boxing either. I remember in 1964 (if memory serves) when Cassius Clay (pre-Ali) took out Sonny Liston in the 1st round for a total K.O. The guys that paid $100.00 for front row never even got to their seats.

I guess I’m double cursed. I think bullfighting is elegant and I still appreciate the sweet science.
FWIW, the pic of Ali standing over Liston hung in my room in the frat house I lived in for 2.5 years of college.

Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

The fight where Ali drops Liston with one right and stands over him was from their second bout in 1965 (May).

He had changed his name by then.

The first bout was in 1964 (February) Liston quit on the stool after the 6th.

I don't remember all the details now but I do recall that when it happened I was listening to it on the radio. A.M. of course as that was all we had then.

I might be wrong, but what little bull fighting I have seen I was not to impressed with it.

The bull seems to be well and truly on his way out before the bull fighting actually starts, after it being clobbered by those riding a horse.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I know it is a traditional sport, and I hope it continues.

My original impression was that the bull fighter gets into the arena with a healthy bull, not one seriously wounded.

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Originally posted by Saeed:
I might be wrong, but what little bull fighting I have seen I was not to impressed with it.

The bull seems to be well and truly on his way out before the bull fighting actually starts, after it being clobbered by those riding a horse.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I know it is a traditional sport, and I hope it continues.

My original impression was that the bull fighter gets into the arena with a healthy bull, not one seriously wounded.

That’s the Picador, he goes first, you are right.
Pretty good display of horsemanship in its own rite.

True that. There's been more than 1 horse eviscerated; those horns aren't there for ornamentation.

My idea of bull fighting involves a large caliber rifle.

Dave

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Originally posted by nopride2:
My idea of bull fighting involves a large caliber rifle.

Dave

...at close range over open sights.

I still like bull fights. And I used to be a Golden Gloves official. So all this we don't like violent sports ain't resonating with me.

Yep, the nonviolent sports crowd is just one more sign of the age of the whimp. One of my daughter-in-law is from Mexico City + we used to go see the bullfights but I'm not flying anywhere these days.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Yep, the nonviolent sports crowd is just one more sign of the age of the whimp. One of my daughter-in-law is from Mexico City + we used to go see the bullfights but I'm not flying anywhere these days.

It's spelled "wimp", and this has nothing to do with violence or non-violence. I'm just as violence-loving as the next person! But intentionally inflicting prolonged pain and suffering on another creature for your own gleeful amusement is not sporting - it's sadistic. And sadism is classed as a form of mental illness for good reason. And just because something is "traditional culture" doesn't justify it's continuing existence, or make it right.

As far as boxing is concerned, I couldn't care less one way or the other. As long as they're both there of their own free will, putting two single-digit-IQ morons in a ring and letting them whale away on each other until only one is standing is neither right nor wrong; it's just stupid. (I don't care how much "skill" you say it takes. Balancing a plate on edge on the end of your nose takes incredible skill; it's pointless too.) The ability to take more repeated blows to your empty head than the next guy does not make you someone to admire. It just makes you a thug. There are plenty of thugs in the bar-room parking lots all across the continent. Which explains the growing popularity of "MMA".

Now, if we could convert those "brave" matadors from driving swords into tortured bulls to doing the same thing on drunken Saturday-night brawlers, we could solve both problems at once. Now that's the sort of violent sport I'd love to see.

cdsx:

I agree with you on bullfights.
When trucking I got to Mission Tx and went across to Reynosa to watch one.

I was totally disgusted. One of the padded, blind folded horse's was gored right in front of where I was sitting. The rider got off and shot it which was as it should of been done and quickly too.

I was amazed at how limber and active the matadors were jumping over the charging bulls.

When I was a young teen Dad and a buddy bought a small bunch of brahma's. We rodeoed them for several years. Three of the cows would get in our ass pockets if we got in the corral without a club. Dad had horse's all my life until he was 88, and cattle from about 1955 until he was 85.

Just the torturing of those bulls is what disgusted me. I had many a chance to go again for years but, never any desire to see it another time.

George

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did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador

A shovel would be a better choice to clear out all the shit.

Dave

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Originally posted by nopride2:

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did get to go to D.C. The House could have used a matador

A shovel would be a better choice to clear out all the shit.

Dave

Too small. I think you'd start with a skid-steer, and work your way up from there.

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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Interesting historical info. Cantiflas was so revered in the Latin community that when he died there was a 3 day mourning period in Mexico City.

Kind of like a Mexican Johnny Carson in the fan (fanatic) department.

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Originally posted by lavaca:
Grew up in Brownsville Texas, right across the border, way before cable. Watched a lot of bullfights on the Mexican TV channel. Love bull fights. Those bulls are little but bred to fight. One place that size doesn't matter. I got to know a huge Charolais bull, who tried to be aggressive, but was a real pussycat in reality. You could put your fingers in his his nostrils and literally lead him around by the nose. Until he got interested in a cow in the next pasture and laid down 200 yards of fence to go on his date. That took a lot of fixing.

No way anyone could bullfight a Cape Buffalo -- and live.