A dealer had eleven old model 70's laid out in a row for sale.

A couple neat calibers; three 300 H&H's, a first year 264 Westerner, and a 243 FW. Priced from $1300 (seven of them)-$1700 (the nicest 300).

The sad news; all of them had had 1/2-1" cut off the butt, and those cheesy orange diamond shaped ventilated pads installed.

It was sad to see, even if the owner said "a grand would take any one of them home, except the best 300. Twelve hundred on it."

With the cheap Laminated stocks available now,
they might still have been worth it.

did you really say the words old model 70 and laminated stock in the same sentence...?

Offer him 400 and slapum in a stock that is more a pre 64 style

Ramline

I appreciate the love affair with the old Model 70's, but do not understand it. I have owned several. None shot less than an inch. I have several of the new ones, all shoot less than an inch.

Who was it that said only accurate guns are interesting?

The new ones are better built and made from better steel. The wood to metal fit is better and they have a better trigger.

I appreciate nostaligia but would rather have a 2013 Corvette than a 1971 for the same reasons.

Replacement original Pre-64 M-70 stocks are available from several custom gunsmiths and can usually be had for a very reasonable price.

465H&H

Post like this is why dolts out there will pay that sort of price for anything with the "magic" words "pre-64". Nostaligia can be pretty expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Replacement original Pre-64 M-70 stocks are available from several custom gunsmiths and can usually be had for a very reasonable price.

465H&H

I agree.

Not one for nostalgia myself- I don't find them or any vintage gun attractive. I just can't stand those attic rafter straight grain red/brown tinged stocks.

I use em (Pre Wars) as donors. Shit I usually gave away & never asked for the stocks and barrels.

What's the matter the original owner brought them as working guns and needed a recoil pad on the stock.

Get over it they were not collectors when they were made they were working guns.

Just because something was discontinued and is old doesn't make it better.

My father always liked a very short rifle and had them cut. Resulted in the first time I was cut ... Each to his own. I'm looking for full-length stocks though.

Old Models have the same attraction and value that old Ferrari's do.

I guess, for me, the issue was not as much that they were cut down stocks as the fact that the owner thought they were a top dollar, as in unmutilated items.

465 H&H had a custom one in 458 Lott, made by Biesen out at the local range several years ago, and offered to let me shoot it.

I still owe him one...

So if Biesen does the mutilations, it's okay but if Joe Shadetree does it, then it's sacriledge?

If it is not accurate, it is not even a working tool.

Old Ferrari's are old ferrari's. Give me a new one every day that runs and does not need parts and technology that no longer exists.

I am not a fan of anything that is old AND mechanical.

I hear if you buy a 1k pre64 you can sink another k or 2 into it and it's a decent gun

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I am not a fan of anything that is old AND mechanical.

Amen brother!

Only thing old rifles are good for is to be cannibalized as donors.

You're right Ted. $2K for a blueprinted action, Krieger/etc barrel and McMillan stock & you'll have a fine rifle.

I wouldn't pay $1K for a Pre 64 OEM except maybe a cloverleaf magnum. I've bought a bunch of OEM Pre War Mags for $1K and std for $750 or so. Paid $600 for serial# 109.

Seems guys like to brag.

I'm going to Africa next year. I can't wait to take my rusty scratched up plastic stock 700 ADL 06 over there to show off.

you'll be legendary...

Generally speaking; "new and improved" means that they found a way to make the product cheaper and mark it up more.

Wait until you guys hear the worst: I like steam locomotives better than electro-diesels.
And horses better than atvs. And double barrel SxS rifles better than bolt guns. And big old houses with wood stoves over doublewides...

Some of these replies remind me of ones posted on a Colt forum. People malign previous owners who actually used their guns and sometimes modified them for personal needs, such as shortened stocks, different grips, etc.
So, a gun purchased 60 or so years ago, when duplicates of it were readily available, should have never been modified in any way? Well I guess it is time to go into the retail gun business. I can sell anyone buying a new gun 2 of each model so that they can use one and put the other in a safe place, completely unmolested, original box, packaging, tags etc., because in 5 to 20 decades from now that gun could be worth a fortune in original condition. Of course I need to contact a psychic to see exactly what guns will gain the most value so that some future collector can make that fortune.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Some of these replies remind me of ones posted on a Colt forum. People malign previous owners who actually used their guns and sometimes modified them for personal needs, such as shortened stocks, different grips, etc.

So if Biesen does the mutilations, it's okay but if Joe Shadetree does it, then it's sacriledge?

Yeah. Frequently those people actually don't even own said product.....internet wannabies...............Arguing over taste is pure arrogance.


Besides.....................Experience trumps google every time.


Get a grip. You can't tell someone what to not do with their toys.

If you are a collector and do not plan on using said guns- yes they are overpriced .........but if you are not a collector and plan on using them only you can determine what their value is and was the mod a good or bad thing.

And some mods are better than others from a function standpoint. Simply opening up the bolt face from std to magnum is fine for factory ammo but no good for hand loads and monometal bullets.

From what they sound like they are not collectors- and as I said earlier if you do your homework they can be had for a better price.

And yes some things are done cheaper....but others are much better. That's why I throw away old barrels and stocks.........

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
So if Biesen does the mutilations, it's okay but if Joe Shadetree does it, then it's sacriledge?

Why do you assume that when Biesen made the rifle that he mutilated a pristine or near pristine Pre-64 Mod 70? In fact it was a beater standard 30-06 that had a rusted barrel cut to 22" and a stock modified so badly that it had no resale value. I paid $350 for the action. When Al and Roger finished it, it was a true work of art. I would never have used one in excellent or even very good condition for this custom rifle.

465H&H

It was kinda tongue in cheek in that any alterations to the original rifle could be deemed a mutilation. Regardless of who does it. And poking a bit of fun at the people that cum down their leg at the mention of a --ta da-- pre 64 Winchester, any pre64. While I'm sure your rifle is a thing of beauty, if it pleases you, but it is not original nor is it stock ergo it has been mutilated.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
It was kinda tongue in cheek in that any alterations to the original rifle could be deemed a mutilation. Regardless of who does it. And poking a bit of fun at the people that cum down their leg at the mention of a --ta da-- pre 64 Winchester, any pre64. While I'm sure your rifle is a thing of beauty, if it pleases you, but it is not original nor is it stock ergo it has been mutilated.

Mutilation = Maim, mangle or difigure.

Not hardly!

465H&H

465,

are we talking about that 458 Lott?

465 was dialing in the iron sights at the range while I was there many years ago. I wandered over to take a look, and he graciously invited me to try it out. Beautiful rifle.

My point, which a number of you missed; was that an altered rifle seldom fetches near the price that it would have if left alone and enjoyed. That is why the Blue Book prices drop for anything less than original. Shortening the stock at the butt end destroys the collector value. As a standard caliber barreled action, with a throwaway stock they generally sell for well under the asking price for an original.

Rich yes that is true. But generally speaking it's either mint or not. And there really is not that much of a difference between the "nots," (caliber notwithstanding) depending on the mods.........

The biggest factor in the P64 market is that even the decent but not pristine originals are in "high demand" because guys like me tear em apart for parts.

And if I actually liked mausers I'd do the same of an old workhorse, regardless if it were an ex military or some London gun (writer's privilege/disregarding the $$$$$$). A donor is a donor.

Regardless, the market is dictated by what the buyer is willing to pay.

Most pre 64s had a clunky stock design, cheap wood, just okay checkering. The early super grade magnums had so much drop they kicked the snot out of your cheek. They were not and are not the equal in any way as a deluxe commercial FN mauser, An FN based high grade Husky or a "no salt" Safari. M 70s have, for now, cult status, that as with the Model 12, will collapse when shooters who value engineering, fit and finish will wake up and figure out that a high grade off the shelf Cooper or CZ is a superior rifle to a gunsmith built rifle on a pre 64 action that cost as much or more and has a lead time that may see it in your estate rather than in your hands.

A CZ Safari Classic in 505 Gibbs with 2 grand in upgrades still comes in under 6 grand.
The last Pre 64 in 505 was ??????

This is the standard grade 1 wood. Imagine what a $1000+ upgrade would look like ?




Or you could buy a NIB Cooper 56 Custom Classic in 7mag for under 4 grand.

Yee Haw, that's gonna get the zealots boiling.

Iduhno... I have an M70 (1949 vintage), and an M54 (1929 vintage), both in .30/06. When it comes to hitting things at 500 yards, offhand, using iron sights- the M54 is twice the rifle the M70 is.

They somehow lost the ability to produce a proper stock with the coming of the M70...

Porosonik.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
If it is not accurate, it is not even a working tool.

Old Ferrari's are old ferrari's. Give me a new one every day that runs and does not need parts and technology that no longer exists.

I am not a fan of anything that is old AND mechanical.

I am lukewarm on new stuff with electronics in the critical path; once it's 20 years old and the parts are out of production it's done for.

The age of classic cars maintainable by amateurs may have passed.

jct,

you should live long enough to see anything new approach old model 70's fit and finish...

Which is subjective, your opinion. I wish more people shared your opinion, I could buy them for a lot less than current market value. The newest offerings from most makers fall short of the quality and handwork put in the old models.

There are a number of reasons
Winchester is making as close a copy today as they can.

BTW, none of the OM 70's were "salt" models.

Ask FMC why he would pay so much for one, just to get the action.

I paid $1450 for my nib CZ 505 Gibbs Magnum. Same for the one in 404 J. The two different 416 Rigbys, were under $900 nib. The 375 was $800, and the 6,5x55 mannlicher was $600. Not one of those rifles had wood worth a second look.

Last thing, the reason Winchester never built them in 505 is the same reason Gibbs went bankrupt after building just a handful. Nobody bought them.

Dogcat and FMC,

if old is bad, why are 1958-63 Ferrari 250 GTO's selling in excess of $30 million dollars.

How many of those old Ferraris were made? I would guess a whole lot fewer than the Pre-64 Model 70s... I think you are comparing apples and oranges, Rich.

I have no dog in this fight, but I think we have beaten this subject to a bloody, pointless mess. Some like the pre-64s, and some like me wouldn't give you a $50 for a truckload of them because they are all wrong-handed!

thirty-seven, iirc.

Around Christmas we will mark half a century since the "Rifleman's Rifle" was replaced by a silly PF version.

Rich, I am in total agreement. I appreciate a product well made.Be it rifle or toaster. In this case the rifle wins out.My 1945 trans. model is classic for a variety of reasons.....It is a grand piece. The pre 64 Win. m.70 I think is a fine piece of art.PEOPLE! If you have one + disagree,then sell it to me or Rich for what you feel it's worth. I would love to pick up another M70 for a couple of hundred bucks.Sorry Rich but the truth is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Dogcat and FMC,

if old is bad, why are 1958-63 Ferrari 250 GTO's selling in excess of $30 million dollars.

Because a fool and his money are soon parted.

250 GTOs:

36 cars were made in the years '62/'63. In 1964 'Series II' was introduced, which had a slightly different look. Three such cars were made, and four older 'Series I' were given a 'Series II' body. It brought the total of GTOs produced to 39.

Just a guess but I think model 70s are a bit more common. Of course there is one "dealer" who will sell you a M70 carbine in 9x57 or 7x64 for a price. Unlike the GTOs they are fakes.

As for the CZs having "plain wood", no surprise as you bought the basic version.

You M 70 guys go on with your coned breech non interchangable parts, 1930s technology rifles.
Happily spend 5-10 grand and wait years to get it made into a "custom" that you better like a lot as it's not going to appreciate.

A $5000 CZ and the Cooper shown can be bought now and are made with superior materials and technology. The GTO may cost more than a Bugatti Veyron .... will anyone argue the GTO is a superior car ?

BTW, I own one of the last New Haven FWs in 270.
It's a good rifle and the stock design is much better than any pre 64 as is the steel in the action. The action is needlessly heavy, the barrel too short, too thin and the rifle is butt heavy. At least it has the "old" M70 trigger instead of that needlessly complex thing in the FN made guns. To compare it to a CZ or a Cooper is laughable. It is for sale too !

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
How many of those old Ferraris were made? I would guess a whole lot fewer than the Pre-64 Model 70s... I think you are comparing apples and oranges, Rich.

I have no dog in this fight, but I think we have beaten this subject to a bloody, pointless mess. Some like the pre-64s, and some like me wouldn't give you a $50 for a truckload of them because they are all wrong-handed!

I did. I unloaded 6 different pre-64's, none were "collectable" because I never got the accuracy under 1" MOA. The new ones I have all shoot under 1" with multiple loads.

To each his own. I would not pay for a pre-64 again. I am sure they are ok, but if you lay a NIB pre-64 next to a NIB FN model 70 on a table at the same price - I pick the new FN model 70 every time and would challenge you to shoot each with factory ammo and show me the accuracy of the pre-64 is superior.

I have been there and tried this. The new ones shoot better for me.

Actually the silly push feed model actually had gas ports that would re direct the gasses out of the shooters face.Not so with the pre 64s.In fact almost all pre 64s made after the mid 50s were not made with much quality.The checkering and wood were a joke.Were the post 64s an improvement???In some ways yes.Wood and impressed checkering sucked.If you wanted controlled round feeding you were SOL.The only reason pre 64s had a lot of hand fitting was because the tooling was trash.The rifles made now on CNC are more precise than the rifles made after about 1954 could even think about.value wise people have funny ideas about makes anything valuable.If you like pre 64s now is the time to buy because the price of new guns is so high that you can usually buy a pre-64 for about the same price.If I wanted a pre-64 type action with none of its bad attributes I would get a Dakota 76 or a Montana RC.

Who the fuck uses OEMs on this site anyway

IMO the only thing OEMs past and present are useful for is actions. Old or new- take out what's good throw the rest in the trash.

Regardless, even the modern M70 actions used by the better gunsmiths are all redone- despite their "tighter" tolerances.

As far as OEM rifles is concerned- only the boutique/semi custom mfg are worth considering.

Coopers make nice little rifles and well worth the $. I have a few plinkers-.22 and Hornets. Dakotas are a hair overpriced but also nice. CZ is junk as far as I'm concerned-CNC? or old Yugo factory? Besides if I wanted a mauser I'd buy a mauser.

FWIW I agree with the accuracy thing though- I'd go even one step more though in any custom non DGR- 1/2" std and 1" magnums. It was done in the 70s by Kleinguenther no excuse for it today. I'd consider any custom that doesn't do that a POS, regardless of who built it.

Hey Rich, Glad to hear you got square and paid your past du debt.

Hmmmm I wonder