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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Black Powder Cartridge Rifles loads for the 500-450#1 express (black powder dougle rifle)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Anyone out there have a double rifle chambered for 500-450#1 Express cartridge? What I would like to have is a list of loads that have worked well to regulate with both black powder, smokeless powder and with a duplex black powder with a small amount of fast burning smokeless on the primer. I had some data from an article done by Ross Siefried (spl?) but have misplaced it. I have a Westley Richerds hammerless double rifle, selective ejector 28 inch barrels. It has Metford rifling and so needs paper patched bullets. Any thing someone may have will help, I take full responsibility for my use of any loads offered! This is a beautiful old double sold out of the London store in 1892 and deserves to be hunted! ………………………………….....................................................  …......Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | ||
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Sounds like a great gun and I wish I could be of more help. I have only a single shot Westley in the No.1 express chambering and just used black powder in it. If I come across any good loading info, I will pass it along. | |||
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Mac, Which cartridge length? I have a D/R in 500/450 #2 Musket 2 5/16 (aka W/R #2) case length, are we talking about the #1 musket or the longer Express cartridge? m4220 | |||
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Below is from the double rifle forum, about the same rifle!
It is the 500-450 #1 express! I'll likely just go ahead and just use Black powder and a paper patched lead bullet! .................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Good idea. You won't regret it! Cleaning the barrels of a double is so easy, using BP is no problem. Apparently though, BPE doubles are easier to get to regulate with smokeless simply because modern black supposedly doesn't have the energy that C&H #6 had. Olde Eynsford is what I use but I have yet to work up a load for a double using it. It does look to give a little more velocity than Swiss and others from what I have read so may be what you need to go with an all black load. Now, having said that, my best shooting BPE double came to me with a good regulating smokeless load using H4198 so I have stayed with that but plan on shooting some full black loads just because it is so enjoyable. | |||
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I have found the easiest way to get the velocity needed to regulate in a black powder double is a duplex load. With about 10% of the total weight of black powder in a fast burning smokeless powder on the primer, and other 90% black powder on top of the smokeless, with just enough Dacron filler to avoid the powder moving and migrating the smokeless powder into the black. The H4198 does bring up thought however! ....................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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My Westley is an 1869 patent rifle and honestly is a bit of a hastle to clean well after shooting. I have thought of working up an H4198 or IMR4198 load for it and would expect a start at 45gr would be about right. If the original cartridge used 110gr black, my guess would be that something just under 50gr of H would work well. The 450 3-1/4 tends to go right to about 50gr and it originally was a 120gr charge of black for many bullet weights. I have a mold for a PP 365gr bullet which I can size to .452+/- and patch up to .458" if you are interested in trying a few. I have shot a few different .458" bullets in my rifle with acceptable accuracy and have never seen a reason to slug the bore. My goal is to patch up with two wraps to a snug fit in a fired case. I haven't perfected that yet, but am working on it. | |||
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I just noticed that the Autumn 2014 issue of Double Gun Journal has a piece about a double in 450 No.1 Express using some smokeless loads. I will get the specifics when I am home this evening. | |||
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OK, Sherman Bell writes that the particular G.E. Lewis double rifle using a 300gr LBT bullet and 3.5gr kapok filler shot a 3-5/8" group of four at 100yds with 50grs of "4198" and at 51grs the group tightened to a group of 3" vertical and 1-1/2" horizontal spread. 50yd grouping was 1-5/8" which I would be very pleased with. He seems to put both IMR4198 and H4198 on even footing at a 40% charge of the original black powder charge weight. From my reading, IMR may in fact be a bit hotter than H. He tried 300gr jacketed bullets from both Sierra and Noslers using Reloader 7. 55gr powder and 3gr kapok filler worked best for the Sierras and 54grs worked best with the Noslers all keeping groups of 3" at 100yds. I think I will be trying the H4198 for my Westley. It sure works in my 500No.2 | |||
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Has Sherman Bell written a book or have his articles been compiled somewhere? He wrote an article in The Double Gun Journal, 29-42 from the Autumn, 2005 edition about the 45-120. I have been trying to track this one down. Eric NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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I have been told that Kick black powder does a good job of duplicating the Curtis and Harvey powder. Might be worth a try. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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Eric, I saw your posting on the double gun article about the 45-120. I have a copy of that and I will copy the pages and send them to you as an email attachment. Bob | |||
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Thanks Bob. That would be greatly appreciated NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Mac, my experience echo's yours in regard to duplexing a BP load to get a BPE double to regulate. I don't believe I've ever had to go to the full 10% of smokeless, however. Of course some of that would depend on the size of the BP charge I expect. What smokeless do you usually use? I use SR-4759. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Black Powder Cartridge Rifles loads for the 500-450#1 express (black powder dougle rifle)
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