I agree that the Loveless drop point is a beautiful and gracefull design. I bet you're kicking yourself for not buying one 20yrs ago.
The cold steel knife was considered mainly because it was cheap but good. I own much better/nicer knives but they cost a lot more.
I personaly am not that fond of ATS-134, I find that D-2 takes a lot finer longer lasting edge, BG-42 takes a better edge, CPM-30v is much tougher and takes as good of an edge etc., and thats not including a good forged knife.
However I do own a very nice ATS-134 Loveless style drop point. It is a very fine knife. I'm glad that not everyone has the same ideas of what is best - it would be boring!
...........DJ

I've tried to think what is the best all around hunting knife given the following criteria from most important to less important;
Price performance ratio
How it performs on game
General Utility
Ease of Maintainance

I think for an inexpensive knife it's hard to beat a Cold Steel Master Hunter or SRK. I have more expensive knives that I like better but for all around use at a price everyone can afford (I just bought one for under $40) I can't think of anything better -can you?

On my website I made a page that talks about the problems I have with most hunting knives, and how I am seeking to design a knife that is better.
http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id32.html

I liked your website except for the *%#$@ popups that it caused. If you'll sell your Targhorns for $40 delivered I'll take 5.
Some comments/discussions.
I agree with handle shaping being important. I won't buy a knife unless it passes the "hand test" - which can be darn hard to do on the internet.
I'm not so sure about a convex edge - though your instructions will be very usefull on my convex edge knives. I have been using a new sharpener that is by far the best sharpening system I've ever tried but it won't do convex grinds -a Tormek system. It is a low-RPM waterstone wheel. It has an excellent system of Jigs that allow a perfect angle within 1 degree to be ground on most knifes. It came with a 1000 grit wheel that was a little coarse for knives and so I bought a 4000grit wheel that is sweetness. It also has a motorized leather stropping wheel that you can use with the jigs. Using this and then finish stropping on leather I was able to do your suggestion of shaving print off of a newspaper (shaved the paper in 1/2) and cut 1/2 through one of my Wifes' hairs. So far the only disadvantage of this system I'm convinced of is that is was quite expensive.
I can see why a convex might be more durable in the feild but with a flat ground properly sharpened knife you can skin a couple deer and still be sharp. I don't know that I've been in the feild long enough to have to reshapen before I go home - although I still carry sharpeners with me!
I'm not saying the one is better than the other, I'm trying to learn more about ways to test and use knives so that I can continue to search for "The Perfect Edge".


Good talking to you............DJ

Sell? Sell? My babies?



Not yet, I sell them to my friends at work, but this is just so I can use the same money it took to make them for the next knife.



I still seek to get better.



I have heard many good things about the Tormek system. the guys that have them swear by them.



Now as you have read what I believe about the convex edge....



LOL...(here we go)...I believe in the idea behind the convex edge. I have seen too many knives that were taken home from the store scary sharp, only to notice people have a harder and harder time getting them back to "store-sharp" as time went on.



I believe the reason is that a flat ground knife and a person with a stone just dont mix very well. The way the flat ground knife is built, the fact is that when you take off a bit of the edge when you sharpen it, you are cutting into the wider sections of the blade each time, and so the knife will get sharp, but it will not be able to stay sharp long.



On the other hand...a convex edge is sharpened in a different way, and just with sand paper and a mouse pad, there is no skill here at all, just drag the knife across the paper. You sharpen the whole side at once, working up in grit until you get to 2000 grit, and that is sharp enough...LOL



Now, my advice for the sandpaper mouse trick is aimed at guys who dont have big budgets for a power knife sharpener.... LOL



Now I also advice people to get a good oil stone and learn how to put an edge on a knife. this is because with all our toys and jigs of this age, we are starting to forget the skills of being a man in the world. Our grand fathers knew how to take a stone and make a knife sharp, but we seem to have lost the need to do this with all our plug-in toys that can do the work for us while we watch.



Also, the brag factor...very important!



Nothing make a guy look like the "Knife God" to his friends more than taking what has been a dull knife for years, and with only a stone, being able to fix the edge, then put a very sharp edge on it, right in front of your guys.





But nothing can make you look smaller than when someone hears you sharpen knives, which they hand you a knife in front of your friends, and you have to say. "I have to take it home to my shop and use a jig"...this makes you sound like you are just the guy who turns on the "ON" switch. Even a child could do that...LOL





Now, I own many flat ground knives, and yes, for indoors cutting up of a deer, they work great. They are sharp.



But My Targhorn is a "Out doors" knife. A working knife. At home cutting up a deer, OR just at home cutting a 2X4 in half too...



I came up with my Targhorn design after years with useing crap knives. I work in a job where from time to time I need to put a point on a 2X2 and then pound them into the ground to mark positions. This is so easy with the Targhorn. I just take it out:, BANG-BANG-BANG on both sides of the 2X2 and there is a nice point on the stake...



The first time I did this, I stunned the guys at work. We were out in the middle of nowhere, we needed to pound a stake into the ground, but the ground was too hard for the blunt 2X4 we had. So I said, "We just need to cut a sharp point onto the wood stake" The boss said, "We dont have time to run a 1/4 mile back to the car to get the saw",,then I just reached for my knife, The boss smiled and said, "You cant cut cut a 2X4 with a knife"...I started to chop-chop-chop, the wood chips go flying into the air, I flip the 2X4 over and chop-chop-chop the other side into a nice sharp point and then just "push" the 2X4 into the hard ground.



The guys were stunned,,,they had never seen a knife that could match that.



I retuned the knife to the sheath without looking, and acted as if I did that stuff all the time.....(It was very cool).



That is the test for my blade design. Can you use it in the field to cut things in a hurry, and do it with less effort, and be safe while doing it?





Well them are my views. Lets hear yours.

About stones;
I ended up getting the tormek for several reasons. One of which was that all of my friends already were having me sharpen their knives on my waterstones. The Tormek lets me do it a lot faster. LOL
The only thing that will make you "friends" faster than a good set of stones is an extra pick-up truck. (Met more cute girls with the pick-up than the stones though....).

I started out sharpening because I wanted to do some woodworking with hand tools. I value my fingers enough that power tools scare me. I started out with arkansas stones and could get a "shaving edge" but it took too long and I wasn't totally satisfied.
After a little study I started using waterstones. I find them to be FAR superior to arkansas stones for several reasons. First of all they cut much faster. The are "friable" meaning they break down faster and continualy offer sharp edge fractures thereby cutting faster. The speed of cutting is important because the fewer strokes needed the easier it is to maintain a flat bevel (easier on a chisel than a knife though). One or two strokes on a 800 grit waterstone will start a flat on a bevel that is easier to feel as you move around the stone. You can also get an idea of how flat you are on a waterstone by looking at the width of the mark you leave on the stone. Secondly waterstones are commonly available in much finer grits than arkansas stones. A fine arkansas stone may be 800-900 grit the black ones get as fine as about 2000. Waterstones are commonly available in 6000-8000 grit, and they will leave a mirror finish on a blade almost as good as the finest strop will leave. Thirdly water is a lot less messy to use than oil. Their primary disadvantage is that they need to be reflattened often. I bought a cheap chinese Carborundom stone for 99 cents at a local tool shop and use it to flatten my waterstones including the tormek wheel. Works better and faster than any other way I've tried so far.
So when I go hunting I take along a 1000/6000 stone to do any on-site sharpening needed. Probably from now on will also take along a good homemade strop too.
But all that being said I still think that the sharpest edge is a highly polished one and there are any number of ways to get there.
You can use progressively finer grades of sandpaper - I used to use this method a lot when I worked at a body shop and got the stuff off the floor for free.
Some of the ceramics work pretty good - I really like in sticks and rods for gunsmithing - because they hold their shape. However even the finest ceramics leave a "scratchy" edge which I haven't been convinced is as good as a polished one.
Arkansas stones hold their shape pretty well but they don't cut fast enough and are messy.
I tried some of the paper wheels that you mount on a buffer but didn't like them very well for several reasons. One is that the cutting wheel cut way too fast for me. You can pretty easily burn an edge on a thin knife. I think that you have to move too fast to hold the angle really accurately - although some guys that I've seen use them are very good at it. The paper wheel with white aluminum oxide does leave a very very nice polish though....
Sharpening steels and crocks seem pretty rough for the kinds of sharpening I like to do. I'd rather bring 2 or 3 sharp knives with me than have to subject a nice blade to one of those.
Diamond stones are pretty usefull. They cut pretty fast and stay flat. All of the ones I've seen leave an edge ground but that still needs to be polished.

Some things I'm going to try;

One of the Posters suggested "Flitz" on a leather strop. I'm curious how fast it cuts and the level of polish it gives.
I picked up a set that has diamond paste with a series of boards that you apply it to. This stuff gets way down into the Micron level about 100,000 grit! May not work but didn't cost too much and so had to try it.
Forged Blades! I've only had a couple and plan to aquire as many more as possible. I think that there definately is something about how a properly forged edge can concentrate the finest metal at the edge. Although some of the new steels are pretty nifty too.
Axes. I picked up two Gransfors Bruks axes. It's not often that you can buy the best in the world for under $100. I bought a Hunters axe and a Wildlife hatchet. Both came as sharp as any knife I have bought. I going to try and skin a deer with one and see how it's use compares with a knife. You ought to look into one. Try the wildlife hatchet first (about $70-$80) it's easy to carry hooked inside your belt or in a backpack. Try one and I bet from now on you'll keep one in your car. I tried it instead of a saw on some tree limbs need trimming and was amazed. Not only was it a lot more fun whacking vs sawing it was faster. One or two hits were taking off 1-2 inch candlestick pine limbs. I bet it would make short work of pointing a 2x4.


Have fun.......DJ

djpaintles..


Your views of the use of an axe are of great interest to me...

I have been thinking that down the road the axe is one thing I would like to learn how to forge.

Now that you have a selection of different ones to judge what is good, and what could have been better, I would like you to share your thoughts of the "ideal" axe......

I saw the names of the ones you know, but I dont have any idea what they are like, do you have a photo?

I will do a web search to see if the names you listed have a website....


What I have been thinking is this...I would like to design my very own super hand axe...Not a big axe, just something a bit bigger than a large knife. I would like to know what design for the handle too,,,what feels the best in the hand when you swing it with all your weight behind it?

I would like to know about the design of the axe head.. I dont want something that will snag too easly of stuff....I think I would try for a type of gracefull design that flows from handle to head in curves?


your thoughts?

Dakotah,
I haven't figure out how to post a picture here yet so I'll have to suggest a website or two for you to look at. I found the best price at www.treemanknives.com. Look under
Gransfors bruks axes or try www.gransforsbruks.com.

I have a hunters axe and a wildlife hatchet. The Hunters axe has a polished rounded poll that they say is to help separate an animals skin from the meat while butchering. I haven't tried it yet but I'm going too. The handle of the Hunters axe also has a series of raised ridges on the bottom of the handle which really give an excellent feel - you may or may not be able to make them out in pictures. The hunters axe even won some sort of industrial design award in Sweden. The other one I have is the wildlife hatchet. It carries stuck behind your belt very well and like I said cuts like crazy. I think if I would only afford one I would try the hatchet first just because it is so handy. They make another even smaller hatchet but when I saw a picture of it by an actual hand I thought it might be a little too small.

The Gransfors site has some of their other styles with interesting descriptions - look at their carpenters axe etc. I think that they have their "Book of the Axe" online, if it's still there I think you will find it interesting.

The other style of axe you might look into is the japanese style "Bearded" axe. The blade extends down to were the bottom of the blade is a few inches below were the head mounts into the handle. I think that this axe maybe with a slightly more curved face would be another good all around cutting, skinning etc. tool. Try looking for one of these at either www.woodcraft.com or www.thejapanwoodworker.com.

I hope you have fun checking these out. I'd love to hear what you think about them.........DJ

Well, this of course doesn't hold true anymore, but 20 years ago the best knife you could purchase was a Loveless
Drop Point Hunter. It was expensive, but multiplied many times over in price. It worked extremely well in the field, he used the best steels he could find, etc. etc.

I have never owned a Loveless, but I do own a couple of rather expensive copies made by contemporary makers, and I find the hollow ground drop point hunter with the tapered full tang made out of 134 ATS steel to be about the best knife available, bar none.

Blue

As an all-around, inexpensive, versatile, effective knife that really,really works, the Cold Steel Master Hunter you mentioned is darned tough to beat. However, I truly detest the ugly Kydex sheath and had a custom leather sheath made up for my Master Hunter.

For an inexpensive, highly-effective folder, the Gerber Gator is excellent, as is the large, single-blade, rusty-steel Case.

If you want to go top dollar, I favor the Randall #3 five-inch; Scott Cook's Large Owyhee Hunter; and for a folder, Chris Reeve's Sebenza..........

All of them work better than "good"!

AD

I agree with you on the Sabenza's I have 2 and love them.
I was looking at Scott Cooks folders, are they basically a Sabenza with 1 piece scales?
......DJ