I am having a hard time finding a safe load for this Mauser that was sporterized 40 years ago and still looks like brand new today. I believe the original gun was actually never issued.

If I remember right, my dad only put 2 boxes of Norma ammo through it. But now I hear that ammo is way to hot for an 1891 Argintine.

Will do some hunting but mainly would like to work up a good 150gr. target load.

Thanks for any help,
John B

The Sierra manual list's 41.5grs of IMR-3031 as the most accurate with a 150gr bullet. That's not a max load, but is listed at 2600fps. Also listed is IMR-4895 starting at 39.6gr max of 45.5 for a top velocity of 2700fps.

My father hunted with a semi-customized 1891 Argentine for about 40 years. Once I started handloading, he shot a 150-grain bullet in front of 45.0 grains of IMR-4895 and a CCI-200. Never had any problems with pressures, the empties ejected easily, and the rifle shot the round well under moa...

Thanks for the info guys......how does 3031 compare with 4895? ......I just started reloading a few months back and am not familiar with those two. Have only used Alliant 2400 so far and that in a '73 44/40 by Uberti.

quote:

Originally posted by J J B:
Thanks for the info guys......how does 3031 compare with 4895? ......I just started reloading a few months back and am not familiar with those two. Have only used Alliant 2400 so far and that in a '73 44/40 by Uberti.

IMR 3031 is a bit faster than any of the 4985s. So you'd have to use less of it to get the same pressures. It could be used in the 7.65X53, but I'd prefer 4895, since it will give you a higher loading density in that case, which usually means better consistency from shot to shot, and better accuracy. But, if you have some IMR 3031, you could use it with 150-grain bullets in the 7.65X53mm, starting with perhaps 35 grains, and develop a load from that starting point.....

I suggesty you take a look at some good burning rate chart, like the one on Steve Ricciardelli's web site - it is very informative about such matters! http://stevespages.com/powderrates.html

(BTW, be careful using 2400 in that M 73! It is easy do get pressure levels from 2400 that are beyond the design limits of that old toggle-link lockup!)

quote:

Originally posted by J J B:
I am having a hard time finding a safe load for this Mauser that was sporterized 40 years ago and still looks like brand new today. I believe the original gun was actually never issued.

If I remember right, my dad only put 2 boxes of Norma ammo through it. But now I hear that ammo is way to hot for an 1891 Argintine.

Will do some hunting but mainly would like to work up a good 150gr. target load.

Thanks for any help,
John B

The Norma ammo is not to hot for the M91 Mauser.

I use 49 gr of Varget under a Hornady 150 gr .312 bullet for 2867 fps out my sporterized M91 with 24" barrel. I use cases formed from R-P 8x57 brass and WLR primers. Accuracy is MOA with 3X scope. Pressure is fine, I neck size and get 8-10 firings before partial full length sizing is required. Primers are still rounded after firing.

With 4895 (H4895, IMR4895 and milsurp 4895) I have loaded to about max for this cartridge. The performance is surprizing. However in defferance to the action I don't shoot max loads. I've found the previously mention 45 gr H4895 load with the 150 gr Hornady to be a good one too. Also 47 gr of milsurp 4895 under the 150 gr Hornady runs 2922 fps. The Speer .311 125 gr bullet under 49 gr of the milsurp 4895 runs 3135 fps and is deadly on varmints. Again none of these loads gave any sign of excessive pressure but while not max they are up there.

While these loads have proven entirely safe in my rifles (4 M91s) you will want to work up to them in your own rifle. I might add that in working up all these loads I used FL sized cases. When fired with starting loads the primer is usually backed out a bit after firing. This means there is little to no thrust on the bolt, hence no strain on the action. I worked up these loads until there was no primer backout and the primers are still rounded. This means the case was just begining to thrust on the bolt. The bolt lift is easy and normal.

Larry Gibson

El D. and Larry:
Thanks for the info re. '91 Arg. loads.

El. D.: I'm using a range of 12-15 grains of 2400 for the '73 as per a phone call to Alliant,
they suggested that for 205gr. lead loads. Am getting the best accuracy with 13.5

Larry: I found some fired cases in in Dad's old Norma boxes, the primers were very flat and sharp edged. When shown to a local gun shop they said Norma is to hot for my '91 and is really meant for Arg. actions later than my mine.

So I pulled the bullets on the unused Norma rounds and was going to use these to work up my own loads. I like Larry's suggestion of starting low and watching the primer movement decrease and loads are upped. Will this work if I use the unworked Norma brass with their primers? Or should I snap their primers, resize, reprime and then start working up?

BTW IMR told me I could go 40% under max safely when using their IMR4895 and suggested a range of 39.5 to 43.0 with 150gr. Hornadys.

Any ideas on that?

John

"So I pulled the bullets on the unused Norma rounds and was going to use these to work up my own loads. I like Larry's suggestion of starting low and watching the primer movement decrease and loads are upped. Will this work if I use the unworked Norma brass with their primers? Or should I snap their primers, resize, reprime and then start working up?

BTW IMR told me I could go 40% under max safely when using their IMR4895 and suggested a range of 39.5 to 43.0 with 150gr. Hornadys."

The Norma ammo is loaded right up there but it is entirely safe in your M91. The Argentines maintained the M91 in service while the M1909 was being fielded. Would it really have made sense to have the same cartridge loaded to different pressure levels? No it doesn't and they didn't do it. Neither does Norma. The only real difference in the loads for the M91 vs the M1909 is the M91 7.65 ammo originally had a heavy round nose bullet and the load adopted for the M1909 was a lighter weight spitzer. The operating pressures of the two loads remained the same.

Pop the primers and use the ones you will be reloading with. Otherwise the load worked up with the Norma primers probably will be different than with the primers you'll use.

The 4895 series of powders make for very good reduced loads. I use a lot of 4895 for cast bullet loads. The charges run 50-60% of a comparbla full throttle load with the same weight bullet.

Larry Gibson

Larry....Thanks for the info......I'll give your suggestions a try.
By the way are you using cast lead with 4895 in the M91?
John

Glad to see this thread as I recently picked up a Mod 1933 Short rifle made for the "Provincia De Buenos Aires Policia" in 7.65x53 and am looking to see how she shoots. It has a mint bore as well as a "Mauser" banner rear bridge. I searched the old threads for 7.65 and found some good notes of old. So ordered some brass from Graf&Sons as well as that Hornady #24 shellholder. I'm wanting to shoot cast in mine so looking at picking up a 311284 and or 314299 mold. Anyone else shoot one of the later 7.65 mausers like mine?
Jeff P

quote:

Originally posted by J J B:
Larry....Thanks for the info......I'll give your suggestions a try.
By the way are you using cast lead with 4895 in the M91?
John

Sorry for the late reply. Yes I shoot lots of cast bullets in the 7.65. 314299 with Hornady GC sized .314 and lubed with Javelina over 27 gr 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler. It runs 1816 fps out of my long rifle with sub 2 MOA using issue sights. The Lee 312-185 sized .312 over 23 gr 5744 (no filler) is an excellent load also. Of course I shoot a gob of the Lee TL314-90-SWC sized .314 and TL'd with LLA over 3 gr bullseye run 820 fps+ and are more fun than a guy ought to have. The hornady .32 90 gr swaged lead bullet may be substituted. Great for plinking and small game.

Larry Gibson

I shoot a 1909 Argentine Mauser in 7.65 and shoot the following in it.

180 grain Remington cor-lokt (.311) diameter.
started with 44.0 grains and stopped with 48.0
grains. The following was observed with my chronograph.

Reloader 15 powder was used and CCI#250 primers.

44.0 grains 2410 fps avg
45.0 grains 2457 fps avg
46.0 grains 2509 fps avg
47.0 grains 2551 fps avg
47.5 grains 2589 fps avg
48.0 grains 2601 fps avg

I settled at 47.5 grains and these loads showed no signs of presure, but... out of respect for the age of the rifle and action I stopped at 2600 fps because it matched the .308
Winchester velocities by almost 70 years earlier.

Again this was with a pristine 1909 action!!!


P.S. a member here (El Deguello) has much knowledge on this round as does browning guy.


Hope this helps
Don
Also check out page #3 in this forum I recieved lots of help from member suggestions on this caliber.

Larry & Don,
Good info there... I just in fact picked up that Lee 312-185 mold last week and got started casting with it last night. It's throwing .3125" with #2 alloy at the moment. I need to get a correct sizer for it but will try some 5744 and 4895 loads when I can get there.
Don - What kind of accuracy did you see with RL-19 and that Rem bullet? I'm also interested in shooting some jacketed as well.

Jeff P

Jeff

I have a 4 power scope on this rifle and I can get @ 1.5 inches at 100 yards with it.

It shoots good enough for the deer I want to try it out on.

I have always shot spitzers and spire points
when I hunted so I'd like to see what a round nose will do.
I also bought an original barrel from some one here that is LONG I may put it on and recheck the velocity again...


Don

Just cooked a bunch of those Lee 312-185 RN bullets last night. I cast them fairly hard (SAECO 9.0) so will gas-check them and see what they do. I wish I had a Mojo sight for this rifle now as it's all original and these are no drill/tap sights. That and a Huber trigger would be real sweet! I will save my pennies (have 2 kids in college!) for now and put them towards a 314299 however.

JP