What would be a maximum charge of W296 (or H110) for the .357 Magnum for a 180 gr. bullet to be shot in a pistol - eg., the SP101. The Speer Manual lists loads of 15.9 grs. for W296 and 16.1 grs. for H110.

w296 and 110 come from the same maker same powder line. same powder. only different lot numbers, make the change different. h414 and 760 are also the same powder.

Not quite. Data is not interchangeable and there are differences in pressure with similar charge weights. I haven't tried 180 gr. JHP's in my SP-101, but I am using AA#9 with 125 gr. Rem. JHP's, but muzzleblast is a bit much. H110 and W-296 even worse yet. With a slightly faster powder like 3N37, True Blue, or AA#7, Fash can be drastically reduced for short barrelled magnums. Mine has the 3 1/16" version and serves as a home defense/hunting back-up.

For defense loads I will be switching to a new powder I am very excited about: Ramshot True Blue. I will trim .357 Magnum brass to .38 Special length to assist speed loading and ejection. I have been doing this about ten years now with 125 gr. JHPs. Velocity can be what you need and the .357 Magnum case will allow you to handle velocities higher than what you can generate with .38 Special at +P+. Previously, I used VV 3N37 for this. 180 gr. JHP's may be too long for this and result in bulged cases. I do this strictly with 125 gr. JHP's and sometimes I use the 124 gr. 9mm JHP that taper crimps very snuggly in the .357 Magnum cases and won't if you use .38 Sp. brass.

For me, H-110 and W-296 are a little slow for the .357 Magnum. Most of my high velocity full length loads get Alliant Blue Dot and more recently AA#9 which will give you magnum velocity at a slightly faster burn rate. Ramshot Enforcer would also be a great powder for maximizing the .357 Magnum for hunting/backup loads which is what I perceive you are loading the 180 gr. bullets for. For full length maximum .357 Magnum loads, Blue Dot is tough to beat and data for the 180 gr. JHP is easy to come by.

Don't back off more than a grain or so from max using H110 and W296 and use a heavy crimp. I ignorantly 'worked up' loads for my 45 Colt and got squibloads and unburned residue. Lucky one didn't stick in barrel. Later learned that it burns best under considerable pressure (reason for crimp).

According to the Winchester booklet that I have, its says when using WW-296 "use loads exactly as shown". They don't have a high and low for 296!

KLN, I would strongly recommend you NOT use handloads for defense, unless you are talking about defense against animals.
Massad Ayoob wrote an article a few years back about the potential for getting cut to ribbons in court for doing that if you ever had to use a firearm against a human attack. His statement was that the prosecutor would make you out to be a fore-thought man killer, even to the point of loading your own ammo to do the job. IOW, "The factory ammo wasn't good enough for you, was it, Mr. KLN? You had to go out and build a super-duper, hollow-pointed, special powder man-killer load to shoot this woman's husband and her daughter's father, didn't you?"
Food for thought, as I see it... Either way, if you ever have to shoot anyone, for any reason, your life for the next couple of years won't be anything pleasant. No way in the world I would want to give anyone any additional leverage in a court of law...

FWIW...most self defense/ concealed carry classes tell you to use factory ammo preferrably the same ammo that is used by law enforcement due to the possibilities of lawsuits stemming from handload use...

You guys of course know there has never been a single case of record where it mattered? Okay, I know the next response: I don't want to be the lab rat! If an attorney started using this strategy, I would have him put on the witness stand and cross examine him myself to expose his ignorance of ballistics, if my attorney couldn't. Assuming it ever went that far! Besides that, you're not exceeding the pressure spec of the cartridge, so how is it gonna be defined as some super duper felon pooper?

Use what you're comfortable with. The defense loads I developed for the short barrelled .357 Magnums have a specific purpose. They're shorter, to aid speedloading and will eject easier from thinner cylinder walls than a full length magnum. Not really a problem with the SP-101, but if you shoot say a Taurus, S&W with a barrel shorter than 3", or a 7 shooter, might begin to make some sense and no factory load exists like the one I use. Flash is also much lower. Good powders are VV3N37, Vectan SP-2 if you're lucky enough to still have some and I have worked up a new load with Ramshot True Blue. Most accurate load I have fired from the 3" SP-101 so far. Powders slightly faster than magnums like H-110 or 296 have a faster pressure peak and are not as dependent on barrel length to avhieve max. velocity. I don't use magnum powders for revolvers with barrels under 6". Then again, I haven't been lucky enough to get my hands on a 5" N-Frame Smith.

See guys, the first trick, is to survive a gunfight before you worry hypothetically about the courtroom!

Excuse the double-posting.
AIU: I forgot to mention the best velocities I have gottrn in .357 Magnum came from Blue Dot. It also came from data that pre-dates SAAMI lowering the pressure spec to 35,000 PSI from 46,000 CUP. Now it's back up to 40,000 CUP. The last few years I have been using AA#9 for .41 Mag and .357. It will produce higher velocity in the .357 than W-296 or H110. It is also much more stable and 10% of maximum loads are not an issue.

One reason #9 gives higher velocity in the .357 is because of the smaller case capacity of the .357. #9 is also a slightly faster powder than 296 or H110. 296 and 110 will still get you more velocity than #9 in the .44 Magnum, but not in the .41 or .357. Ramshot Enforcer is about the same speed as #9 and could become a really great powder in the .357 or .41 Magnum.

KLN, do as you wish, but understand this: if you are ever involved in a shooting, regardless of what the reasoning, the coutroom will be anything but hypothetical! With today's litigious society, it is a foregone conclusion: there WILL be a civil suit, regardless of whether it was deemed a "righteous" shooting or not.
IMO, there are just far too many factory loads for whatever you own to take the risk of handloading for defense... It just ain't worth the risk, period. Even the police use factory... Wonder why that is?

Because most of them can't reload their own ammunition and the taxpayers pick up the tab! Cite 1 single example to prove your point. There is not a single case to support the paranoia and when you worry about something that doesn't exist, it is paranoia and gunwriter babble. You live in Texas also, so I guess you have never read any of Jim Wilsons comments on this subject. Who would you take more seriously, some self annointed combat guru, or the longtime Sheriff of Crockett Co. in your own state, who is in the know with agencies like the DPS and Texas Rangers as well as other municipal and county LE agencies.

I respect Massod Ayoob, but he is from the Northeast and this ain't Massachusetts, it's Texas.

One final statement, and I will leave this alone.
Your statement about TX being different from MA is well taken. But pleae review this:
Jim Wilson is a retired law enforcement officer, and the bold word is very important. Things have changed. You well know that cops are (or at least WERE) treated differently in a courtroom than the average citizen. Having said that, Wilson knows that back in his day he could have shot a handloaded round at a perp and most likely have gotten off scot-free because he was a law enforcement officer. And I would submit that a career in law enforcement breeds a bit of the "I can do whatever I want to" attitude into the peace officer's mentatlity. Not always, but I have known a bunch of cops that thought they were somebody special. And they aren't.

And lastly. I would refer you to the case in Louisiana several years back when a citizen was absolutely flogged in court for shooting a teenager with a .44 Mag. It was the only firearm the man had, and the attorneys had a field day with the man using "the most powerful handgun available" to kill an unarmed, foreign teenager who didn't understand english. Never mind the teen didn't stop when the man told him to, and the man feared for his family.
VERY similar situation, as I see it.
And Ayoob has been called into court as an expert in a bunch of cases. I submit to you he knows what he is talking about, from experience.

Take your chances. I won't. We will just agree to disagree.

Doubless: caution and common sense should always apply to defensive handgun use. Jim Wilson is retired, but he's not out of touch. I remember the Louisiana incident and the heat came from the fact that the teenager was unarmed, intoxicated and didn't speak much english. Sure, the press mentioned the gun being a .44 Magnum. One that should never have been used, even had it been a .22!

Think about this; who is going to know you used a handload in a defensive shooting to begin with, unless you state that you did, or are asked directly.

Massod Ayoob knows his business. How many times has he had to travel to Texas to aid a defendent who had been involved in a justified defense shooting? Your CCW handbook and instruction you received for your license should have made it clear as to what constitutes a justifiable use of lethal force and it ain't a drunk foreign teenager in your front yard.

How many cases are on record where the shooter in defense of life and limb was found negligent because he used a handload?
Answer: ZERO

I am a sheriffs deputy and I carry what the department issues meon duty. Off duty though it wouldnt matter what bullet or caliber I was carrying because if I am confronted with a situation that calls for deadly force I am gonna put as many holes in em that is necessary to stop em. As far as the civil suits. LMAO, you cant get blood out of a turnip.

Has anyone tried the hot loads recommended by the latest Speer reloading manual - that is, with 180 gr. bullets loads of 15.9 grs. for W296 and 16.1 grs. for H110. I also note that the Lyman Reloading manual lists 14.9 grs. of W296/H110. Any thoughts of these loads for the Ruger SP101? Is the Ruger SP101 stout enough for these loads?

Ackley, in a short barreled revolver like the SP-101 you are going to have a lot of unburned powder and your loads will be somewhat eratic. By using a slightly faster powder that will peak faster in the bore you will be able to achieve velocities as high while getting much better accuracy. http://www.accuratepowder.com provides higher pressure load data. Blue Dot will produce higher velocity in the .357 Magnum than H-110 or W-296 provided you have the data that shows it. If you really want to use H-110 with 180 gr. bullets and the Lyman data, there is no reason you can't. Remember that their ballistics are a lot different from what you will get, even if they used a 4" pressure barrel. Hopefully they still show pressure listed for the load as they do in my 46th edition.

Let me give you an example from Accurates data. These are Maximum charges and need to be reduced by 10% to start. Velocities were from a 6" 686.

180 gr. XTP CCI500 Primer Remington case 1.575" OAL
#5 9.2 grs Vel 1193 FPS 44,300 CUP
#7 10.3 grs Vel 1196 FPS 43,600 CUP
#9 13.0 grs Vel 1293 FPS 43,000 CUP

To me, any of these powders would be a better choice. Which one would I expect to come closest to it's advertised velocity when shortening the barrel from 6" to 3"? Probably #5 because of it's faster pressure peak. I'd go with #7 because it is an excellent powder for .357 accuracy and it won't loose as much of it's energy potential as #9 in the 3" tube.

KLN, thanks! I'll give it a try. AIU

You're welcome! Please report back with the Ouch factor! I have used 158s in my 3" SP-101 and with handguns I am not what you would call recoil sensitive, but something tells me a full power 180 gr. .357 Magnum load in the SP might get my attention. Good Luck!

KLN357, actually I like the 357 "ouch" compared to my 454 Casull and 500 S&W. The latter two make me feel like a masochist.

Hey Buddy: I hear you! I know it will cost you another $15 or so, but every time I have told someone about using #7 or something slightly faster than Magnum powders for short barreled revolvers, the results have been gratifying for everyone. If Hodgdon still made HS-7, or even if you had HS-6, either would work. Blue Dot will work, but I started using low flash ball powders for defense loads, #7 in .357 Magnum cases can be a beautiful thing and you can use it for slightly less than full power loads in the Behweemuths! Accurate has the data. Right now I'm am working out Ramshot True Blue (which is worth a look for .454) and it is outstanding, but I trim my .357 cases to .38 Special length to reduce unused powder space. I got started doing this to aid extraction in .357 revolvers others were shooting that had sticky extraction with full length loads. You can still get some really good velocity, but I haven't tried 180s, so I don't know how it would work. Mainly done for 7 shot Taurus' and S&Ws with short ejector rods. But, I have never had a problem with extraction with my 3" SP-101 when using full length .357 loads. VV 3n37 is really good for this kind of loading as well, but all things considered, including cost, I'd say #7 or True Blue.

Actually, I have both HS-6 and HS-7.

Either will work well for the 3" SP-101. Since HS-6 is still available, it might be worth trying first. It is quicker and will be more efficient in the 3" tube. HS-7 was replaced by Longshot that can also be used.

AI: I am editing to add that I was assuming because you still had HS-7 you might be trying to save it, if it is a limited quantity. If you have plenty for loading after the initial load development and want to go ahead and use it, it could be a sweet way to find a use for it. It is a little slower than AA#7 though, and about a similar speed as Alliant Blue Dot, which I have used with good success.

The only reason you'll get unburned powder with H-110 or W-296 is using a too light bullet, a too light charge, or not enough bullet pull, barrel length has nothing to do with unburned powder. I have tested a variety of 357 mag loads in revolvers and single shots, and find H-110/W296 is too slow of a powder for the 357 mag, except for 200 gr bullets.

As far as masochistic handgun recoil goes, I've fired plenty of 454's, 475's and 500's, and by far the most painful revolver I have ever shot was a S&W scantium 357 mag, it was absolutely brutal! The only reason I fired the whole cyilinder is I'm a slow learner

quote:

Originally posted by KLN357:
You're welcome! Please report back with the Ouch factor! I have used 158s in my 3" SP-101 and with handguns I am not what you would call recoil sensitive, but something tells me a full power 180 gr. .357 Magnum load in the SP might get my attention. Good Luck!

A 180 gr. LBT is what I load in my 2-1/4" SP101, with 16 gr. 'Lil gun, or 12 gr. 2400. It's a heavy load, but very manageable with a two hand hold, and extremely accurate. I use it for protection in the woods. It also shoots to point of aim out to about 50 yards, where the lighter ones do not. Great load!