Since it has been getting stale around here, I'll let you guys know that I've thrown my hat into the equine clinician arena. I've done a couple at the house, first one was a couple weeks ago and was basic horsemanship, and this past Sat we did a cow work clinic. I'll also be one of the featured clinicians @ the Louisiana Equine Council Expo in Lake Charles, La this upcoming March. Hoping to win the colt starting competition and see where this thing will take me. I'll also have a website up shortly and will come back with a link for any who may want to view some pics and whatnot.

I've also been working some thoughts into words for a good long while now and may someday come out with a book. It's meant to be a sort of Horsemanship 101. I think that all the talk of "whispering" and "abuse" has ruined more horses than any actual abuse ever did. I now routinely see a bunch of spoiled and disrespectful horses who simply need their little butts whipped and I'm not afraid to say so. The "Disney version" of horsemanship isn't getting the job done, so I'm aiming to be the guy who wants you to sometime scream at 'em. Not that I want anyone whacking them with a 2x4 or anything, but it's gotten so that people think that they can't gig one a bit with a spur or bump a rein without having abused a 1200lb animal. This means that ya'll should look for me in an upcoming entrapment series on 60 minutes.
I've also got my mind working on some video ideas, but have NO IDEA about equipment or production of such an animal, so any of ya'll with advice will be greatly appreciated. I may just get my feet wet on youtube, and see how that goes. Thanks for any and all advice.

Daniel77,
It pains me deeply to swim within the tidal flow simply to avoid the effort of fighting against it but; you are fighting a losing battle. There has been so much "stuff" written, taught and spread about how to train horses that combines the good acts of kindness with the foolish advice on how to do so into the culture of equating animals with mankind that you will never win this one. The closest fellow I know that did is John Lyons. I think John said, "you have 5 seconds to do whatever you can" to the horse when he bits you or kicks or any other dangerous activity and then after that the horse won't associate what you do with what he did so there is no sense in doing it. John is a great Christian guy who had it right and also had the life testimony of kindness that kept the left-er leaning types unable to find the "bad guy" they were looking for.
So my advice is from this position; I have done it, won it, taught it and watched them do it, win it, teach it and now work in an area of endeavor that is very Video and Internet savvy. Don't try and change the world. Don't put your work on video to minimize risk. Go work the face to face clinician arena and achieve your success there. The public is not ready or willing for someone to be bold in saying “I now routinely see a bunch of spoiled and disrespectful horses who simply need their little butts whipped and I'm not afraid to say so. The "Disney version" of horsemanship isn't getting the job done, so I'm aiming to be the guy who wants you to sometime scream at 'em. Not that I want anyone whacking them with a 2x4 or anything, but it's gotten so that people think that they can't gig one a bit with a spur or bump a rein without having abused a 1200lb animal.” They are however very willing to help you be the star of “an upcoming entrapment series on 60 minutes.”
If you are good and can help people and horses have more fun with each other and achieve more with less stress, you will find all the work you want.
Best regards,
dmw

Good for you Daniel, I wish you the best and look forward to seeing your work product.

quote:

I think that all the talk of "whispering" and "abuse" has ruined more horses than any actual abuse ever did. I now routinely see a bunch of spoiled and disrespectful horses who simply need their little butts whipped and I'm not afraid to say so. The "Disney version" of horsemanship isn't getting the job done,

There has also been many good horse enthusiasts ruined both physically and phsycologicaly by the Disney approach too. As with most everything there needs to be a balance. Good on you and your ventures in bringing this out

Best of success to you.

Don't thro it out--have some respect and bury it!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
Don't thro it out--have some respect and bury it!!!!!!!!!

Not quite sure what this means?

Thanks all for the advice, and rest assured, I'm not trying to change the world. I'm only interested in a small part of it, containing those worth working with.

Here's the link to what will soon be my website:
http://dauphinhorsemanship.com/

and here's my facebook page if any of ya'll want to see some pics of the clinics
http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001790801372

quote:

Life's too short to have a dog that doesn't earn his keep, a gun that's too pretty to shoot, a woman who isn't too pretty, or ride a mule.

Must not have ever ridden a good mule.

I think there is still room in this world for dumpin one on his side and sitting on his head.
but bet they don't teach that in Disneyland.
Still willing to learn from whatever the source.
Lots of "good" info out there and sounds like more on the way.
let us know about the book, good luck

The appeal of the 'whisperers' is to the 40 year old ladies who just bought a first horse for %15000. I've seen some of the cutting horse trainers coddle the rich ladies, and their horses, then put on rock grinders and work the sorry bastards over. Sometimes they are bull headed and need a butt kicking, all the ones who grew up on a horse know that already. I got a real laugh one night, a lady had a horse that she was about five years old, she was riding with a smooth snaffle bit like you'd use the first week on a two year old. Of course when she'd try to stop, he'd take about two steps before he pulled up. My buddy, who is a trainer, grabbed a bit, told her the horse needed more bit and she wanted to argue, she didn't want to put anything in him that would make him hard mouthed. He looked at her and said what is 'hard mouthed'? It is when they ignore the bit, and walk through it, Lady he's already there, he needs a bit in his mouth.

I wish you luck, but reality tells me that there are more 'wannabees' with money than ones that want to learn to be a horseman.

Buck Brannaman is a fraud-----

I have agreed which your premise for 30 years. Ray Hunt got more people hurt than bulls did.

SSR

"Ray Hunt got more people hurt than bulls did."

I agree with that. One of the first clincians I ever saw was Ray Hunt. He put some folks on their colts and in the round pen started flagging them and chasing the around the pen. One colt blew up and bucked of it's rider. I still remember that fellows look when Ray told him to get back on.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
The appeal of the 'whisperers' is to the 40 year old ladies who just bought a first horse for %15000.
I wish you luck, but reality tells me that there are more 'wannabees' with money than ones that want to learn to be a horseman.

No, I've never ridden a really good mule. I have wasted hours of my life on them though. My conclusion is that life's too short. I can train a passle of horses who'll do any darn thing I ask in the time it'd take to make one mule. Frankly, I don't see the benefit for all of the time. Maybe it's just me. I'll take the devil I know...
As long as their $$ is green, who am I to judge...
Something like 85% of horses are owned by women. That's a fact jack. You can fight em or work with em. My cow work clinic this past weekend was all girl, with one lone guy. He didn't listen to a word I told him. His horse was still hopping around like a bunny rabbit by the end of the day and he really thought he was puttin on a show. Most of the ladies REALLY tried and got way out of their comfort zones. One of 'em, the least experienced by far, made so much progress that her friends were crying (first time she's stayed on her horse for a whole day, first time she's loped, etc.). That's a bit weird for me, but they're gonna come to every clinic I put on and for private group lessons. I'm ok with the ladies.

There are some good young folks seeking a kinder way that I do support as the real deal horsemen. One is Kerry Kuhn in Kansas, http://www.kerrykuhn.com/, where I live nowadays. I have watched him. Listened to him and have seen him work with young folks. I am not very tolerant of the "BS" of the horse business because first it is a lie and second because people miss out on the love of horses because they are fed things that get them hurt or discouraged. I have made lots of mistakes with horses over the years though succesful, if you understand my meaning. The last colt I have had a chance to start and work with was chased into a stock trailer and chased out at my place 5 years ago. I had to rope him and he tried very hard to kill himself when I first tied him up. I made up my mind to be kind and patient no matter what. It took me a long time to saddle him and ride him, all summer of his two year old year in fact. When I did he was so afraid that he would not take a step forward with me in the saddle. Now he not only trusts me but I do believe likes me pretty darned well. He may never win the World or National Championship but he is my horse. I am grateful for that.
Best regards,
dmw

Thanks for the well wishes. One good thing about this is that it may well cause me to travel around more and I might just have to try out the hunting in various spots as I go. Might even get to meet a few of ya'll face to face as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
but he is my horse . I am grateful for that.
Best regards,
dmw

I get em like this all the time. In fact, my personal demo horse was somewhat like this. First time the farrier came he refused to do him. All that energy got channeled and turned in to "feel". I wouldn't take large sums of $ for him. He is my horse and I totally understand what you mean.
Please don't take my rough language to mean that I bloody them up a whole bunch. I just don't happen to believe that them understanding what you want is a total guarantee to them actually, reliably doing it. They are like kids. I love my son, and son soon to come, more than anything, but I'll tear up their butts too, when they need it. I'll also hold their hand, when they need it. The trick is knowing which they need right now...

While I don't know you Daniel, I understand what you are saying. I am saying to you that most of the horse world will not understand and especially on Video. Face to face, you as a person will over come perception. On video, they won't know you, only what they think they see.
Best regards,
dmw

Well, I am not a rich old lady but I do ride horses (English) and I am going to call "bull****". There has to be, and is, a better way to train a horse than beating him with a baseball bat. My next door neighbor used to raise horses. he said: "We did not know back then what we know now. Back then beating a horse was the only way we knew. I would never train a horse that way now". Of course he was full of s***, right? No one could ever learn anything new about training horses, right?
Peter.

Hello Daniel

Good luck with your new venture. There are a couple of things that you may (or may not have) realized about the path you are outlining . . .

Firstly you are moving from a “horse” training focus to a “people” training focus, and what’s worse these aren’t people at work with their heads (which heaven knows are hard enough to train – I do a lot of it) but people attending with their HEARTS, their emotions, feelings and not much rationality. They have mostly left their logic, critical thinking, self evaluation etc. at home. They often leave a realistic expectation of what they can achieve with their particular horse at home too.

Like me, they will mostly be what we call here “Saturday and Sunday” riders, even if they do ride more often, and this further reduced the level they may reach unless they are very dedicated.

Unlike many previous posters I have the utmost respect for what they derisively call the “Disney” clinicians. I have seen John Lyons and Pat Parelli, and have read on Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson. Buck Brannerman and others plus watched their videos. All of the above named are horsemen of the highest order, and I’d be amazed if any of the naysayers above can post video of themselves mounted at the standard these guys produce horses to. All of these clinicians are not afraid to be tough with a horse that needs it, and when Pat Parelli was out here 25 years ago I saw him deal with a couple of really tough ones. They didn’t get beaten on, but they got beaten by a superb repertoire of skills that enabled him to do the right things with the right horses. Could people take those tips home and do it there – mostly not. I was lucky enough to attend the Parelli clinic with a couple of very good horsemen and they sure could use his ideas when they got back home.

After all that, I think helping people achieve new skills and move closer to their dreams is a wonderful thing – go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well, I am not a rich old lady but I do ride horses (English) and I am going to call "bull****". There has to be, and is, a better way to train a horse than beating him with a baseball bat. My next door neighbor used to raise horses. he said: "We did not know back then what we know now. Back then beating a horse was the only way we knew. I would never train a horse that way now". Of course he was full of s***, right? No one could ever learn anything new about training horses, right?
Peter.

It's, of course, entirely up to you, but you may well want to go back and read what was actually written, rather than the emotional view that you percieved it to mean. Nowhere did I say, mean, or approve of " beating them with a baseball bat". I specifically said that I did not mean "firmness" to be "beating them with a 2x4". I guess this may be a fortuitous instance of someone's heart keeping them from getting the real message here.

The point is not that different from raising kids. My father was a very strict disciplinarian. I damn sure got a few whippings as I was growing up. I still love him, thank him for building the character into me that I now rely on daily, and was in NO WAY ABUSED by that process. I'm not saying that abuse is OK. All I'm saying is that you can correct a horse firmly without abusing him. I've never met you or seen you ride a horse, but I can tell you that a WHOLE BUNCH OF FOLKS out there are feeding animals that ROUTINELY GIVE THEM THE FINGER AND THEY NEVER KNOW IT. If your horse has such an attitude and you don't quickly and sucessfully transition from his "bitch" to his "leader", you and all those near you ARE IN DANGER. PERIOD.

If you want to see the REAL language of horses, take 20 head that have never been together before and put them and a single bucket of feed in an arena. See how "Disneyesque" that turns out. The language of horses is FULL of threats and violence... Until the Pecking order is worked out, and you are undeniably your horse's leader, you are in danger. Period.

It isn't what the current batch of clinicians say that I have issues with, it's what they don't say. As was stated before, this is a selling to people business, not really a horse business. They are telling people what they want to hear, to some degree at least, in order to make the people feel good about them, their message, and buy more stuff. If Parelli wasn't into horses, he'd be selling SHAMWOW instead. He's a salesman. and his ego barely fits into the Continental US (which is in itself reason enough for me not to like him). Parelli in particular has shown his ass in public a few times, and don't ever forget that he has a full time PR and Marketing staff shaping what you are allowed to see. I'm not saying that he doesn't know squat about horses, I'm saying that he's not telling you the WHOLE TRUTH. And if you REALLY think that Parelli and Clinton Anderson are as good as Matt Gaines, Paul Hansma, Al Dunning, Shawn Flarida and those top level guys who regularly COMPETE AGAINST THE BEST AND WIN, you are quite naive. Those clinicains make damn good money and will NEVER actually take a chance on getting beat, which is very wise on their parts, and their customers don't know enough to be able to tell the difference anyway. You may be a perfect case in point. Easier to call yourself the best than take a chance on proving it not to be true.

You should also note that the demo horses that they ride are their own personal horses. You have no idea how many repetitions of those maneuvers they've been put through before those guys take a chance on riding one of those horses for the public to see, or how many they culled to get the 5 head that they take on the road with them. Do you? Funny how they do a first ride on a colt and then bring out their 15 year old finished horse to demo on isn't it? What happened in those 13 missing years. They can also take another year to solidify those demo horses if they need it. A Real Trainer knows the day he has to show a horse before he's even born. That adds a whole lot of pressure to the equation, when it has to get done, and done NOW, and in public. This is part of what really pisses me off about some of these guys, though not all of them. They act like nobody but them has a clue, and the "standard" way of training a horse is "whacking them with a baseball bat". I've been doing this for a living for 20 years. I personally know a bunch of the big trainers, in cutting anyway, and a few of the clinicians as well. There's a lot more smoke and mirrors than you realize, and I have absolute, first hand knowledge of this. Take it or leave it...

Maybe I'm wasting my breath here, but I do take offense to someone twisting my words to insinuate that I'm simply beating them with a baseball bat...

quote:

Originally posted by Tentman:
Hello Daniel

Good luck with your new venture. There are a couple of things that you may (or may not have) realized about the path you are outlining . . .

Firstly you are moving from a “horse” training focus to a “people” training focus, and what’s worse these aren’t people at work with their heads (which heaven knows are hard enough to train – I do a lot of it) but people attending with their HEARTS, their emotions, feelings and not much rationality. They have mostly left their logic, critical thinking, self evaluation etc. at home. They often leave a realistic expectation of what they can achieve with their particular horse at home too.

Like me, they will mostly be what we call here “Saturday and Sunday” riders, even if they do ride more often, and this further reduced the level they may reach unless they are very dedicated.

Unlike many previous posters I have the utmost respect for what they derisively call the “Disney” clinicians. I have seen John Lyons and Pat Parelli, and have read on Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson. Buck Brannerman and others plus watched their videos. All of the above named are horsemen of the highest order, and I’d be amazed if any of the naysayers above can post video of themselves mounted at the standard these guys produce horses to. All of these clinicians are not afraid to be tough with a horse that needs it, and when Pat Parelli was out here 25 years ago I saw him deal with a couple of really tough ones. They didn’t get beaten on, but they got beaten by a superb repertoire of skills that enabled him to do the right things with the right horses. Could people take those tips home and do it there – mostly not. I was lucky enough to attend the Parelli clinic with a couple of very good horsemen and they sure could use his ideas when they got back home.

After all that, I think helping people achieve new skills and move closer to their dreams is a wonderful thing – go for it.

Thanks for your well wishes. I, too have respect for a couple of the guys on your list, and am not saying that they are all bad. Ray Hunt was a tough old man and would eat one's lunch in a heartbeat. He also had no qualms about berating or insulting one of his customers in public. That was a different time and he'd never get away with his style anymore. That part of his deal never seems to get absorbed somehow. Buck will darn sure pop one with a lead rope as well and place himself, in no uncertain terms as the leader before ever going onto what he's working on, be it trailer loading, saddling, whatever...
This is the part that they don't talk about. I don't have to make a big fuss to control a colt either. When you've done a few hundred head, you exude a quiet confidence, and they can immediately tell that you aren't scared and are in control. Most folks are sending their horses a far different message, right from the start. Many clinicians use that keyword of ABUSE in order to sell their stuff. My point, and what I feel the others NEVER SAY OUT LOUD, is that there's a whole lot of space between the extremes of being abused by your horse, and abusing your horse. I think the pendulum has swung too far toward the Disney end and now, the vast majority of the folks that I see riding around, are begging and pleading with their horses instead of being firm and taking control.

I'm not as old as many of ya'll, but I've very seldom seen any evidence of the "old way" and snubbing to a post and all that BS that the clinicians generally seem to want to advertise as the "standard way" that horses are started, and have always been started. The whole premise of the whispering stuff seems flawed to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'll also say that what you do see of these guys is carefully crafted stuff. I have first hand knowledge of one of the "whisperers" interviewing a bunch of colts earlier in the day and watching his staff put them through the paces 6 hours before his "show". He then picked the easiest 2 to "demonstrate his method" on later that evening, and somehow forgot to mention that he had 4 tougher ones backstage and that the two he'd just "gentled before your very eyes in only 30 minutes" had already had the snot worked out of them earlier. Beware a salesman and what he shows you. Shamwow anyone?

PM sent

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:

No, I've never ridden a really good mule. I have wasted hours of my life on them though. My conclusion is that life's too short. I can train a passle of horses who'll do any darn thing I ask in the time it'd take to make one mule. Frankly, I don't see the benefit for all of the time. Maybe it's just me. I'll take the devil I know...

It is easier for most people to train a horse than a mule. I make my living working on horses and have the luxury of working on some the best of the best. Some of the best horsemen in the business are my clients. I have seen few good mule men but for those with the know-how they are actually easier.

Come over to the ranch sometime and I'll let you ride a good mule or 2.

Mules are not as good as horses for a lot of things, are their equal for some, and they the cats-meow for some things...it's a matter of picking the right animal for the job.

My Grandad...who traded a "span-of-mules" for the house he and Granny lived in until the day they died...always said you had to be smarter than the animal you were training...and that just left a lot of folks out when it came to mules.

Your granddad may have me pegged. I could see using them for a pack animal or to pull but have no use for one to ride. I have seen them slip and they are darn sure slow. If i were to die in a saddle i would not want my headstone to read he died astride a longear

If you are riding a good mule...don't have to worry about getting killed unless you get struck by lightning or take a stray bullet.

We'll brand calves before too long...come over and drag...we usually have 2 fires and I'll match you...me on a mule and you on any horse you choose.

Sounds like a helluva lot of fun and I just finished a few days of the same, so I'm warmed up. It's always nice to hear of other folks who don't automatically go to a squeeze chute when working cattle. I have a son due in a few weeks, otherwise... I must say that swinging over and around those ears must take some getting used to, not picking, being serious.

If we are talking about mules; you can never tell if I am serious or not when I say things like; I have never found it a problem to swing a rope over and around a mules ears. I have found it hard to swing my leg back over a mule after swinging the rope over his ears though! Seriously; I have never roped off a mule. I have ridden one or two the owners said they did and those mules carried their heads very low, like most mules do and thus I can see it not being a real problem, the ears. My brother is a mule man and we have watched each other carefully for many years now! Man can they pull, walk, trot and jump though. No doubt pound for pound the pulling calves to the fire would be a mules race to lose because they are built to do that kind of work. They use every step to it's full leverage advantage.
Best regards,
dmw

Last shameless plug, I promise. Website is up. Let me know what ya'll think.

http://www.dauphinhorsemanship.com/

I have ridden some good mules, but they can hurt you too. I watched them helicopter-rescue a guy out of the River of no Return Wilderness that got rolled over on by a mule during elk season. I was riding a 3-year old quarter mare when we found him.

By the way Daniel, see what I meant in my post? I do agree, those clinicians couldn't stay in the same arena with the guys who are making a living by winning. I spent my weekend working buffalo on my mare.

You are right about not giving an animal the upper hand, I also fool with dogs a bit, try giving a yearling Malinois his own way for a while and let me know how that works out for you.

I was out riding around with my dad in the trk.

He grew up useing horses we had a team and a couple for riding on the farm.

It was surprizing as we talked about the neighbors how many people were killed by horses in the area.

Any critter that big if ones gets careless or unlucky with sure can put a world of hurt on you or kill you.

Hi Daniel

I LIKE your website and your message is GREAT.

Best of luck with it. I for one would pay good money for you to start my colt and then START ME riding him (despite 45 years of riding) as I think this is a real "gap" where too many people under-estimate their ability and end up making a bronc (or something not much better).

Cheers - Foster

Thanks a bunch guys. Just finished up the Louisiana Equine Council's Colt Starting Competition. I wound up 3rd out of 3, but it wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds. The other two gentlemen, Ethan Lee and Dr. Joe Gotti were both gentlemen, and fine horsemen. I was originally worried that I'd wind up with some jerk who was more into sniping his competitors and circus tricks than horsemanship, but this wasn't the case at all. Last year a green kid got himself hurt badly and nearly one of the other guys when he went to 'desensitize' his rank colt to a pistol and didn't give the other guys a "heads up, I'm about to fire a gun". Turns out that I had two real nice guys to compete against. We all got along well and had similar thoughts on BS like Chainsaws and standing up in the saddle while cracking a whip. I'm happy to report that none of us were able to move along with our colts in anywhere near the time frame that we'd been expecting to, but nobody sacrificed what their colt needed for the sake of the competition either.
I definitely had the bronc of the group and the crowd behind me. Each session, she'd start out making lots of progress and then start to regress, but I kept my cool and she was a very different horse by the end. Mine was the only one to buck (though not with me on her) and MAN DID SHE BUCK. Don't ever assume that just because a colt isn't very large or muscular that they aren't strong. If I could have frozen her in mid air, I could have walked underneath her. They don't come much worse or tougher minded than this filly was.
We had three 1.5 hour sessions (ready or not, your time's up) and then had to lead then ride them over an obstacle course plus a 5 minute freestyle for circus tricks. I think that they'd have been hard pressed to find a tougher group of colts, and the audience was definitely treated to a wonderful learning experience of "real world" horsemanship by all three of us. We had fillies who'd never been halter broken or handled, save being run through a cow shoot and wormed (bet that helped their disposition out a bunch). I was the first to touch my colt, first to saddle, and first to pick up feet, plus the only one to lay their horse down. This cost me 30-45 minutes of my 4.5 hours, which is a huge chunk of time (it also got me no extra credit for scoring), but she damn sure needed it and the crowd loved it. She relaxed so much that I had to try 3 separate times to get her up so I could get on her (first time) and finish. I was only able to get on my filly with 18 minutes left in the last session. I literally rode her over the obstacle course in a full size arena (head down and relaxed), including poles, turn around in a log square, a tarp, bridge, and large black culvert pipe, with less than 25 minutes of riding time total. Unfortunately, the way that the event was scored, the "final" (read results), which lasted about 15 minutes, counted for half of our total score, and the hours in the round pen, including things like smoothness, and speed made up the other half. Difficulty of the horse is not a factor at all (but it darn sure counts with the crowd ).
I went there to demonstrate my methods, skills and knowledge, and even though I deservedly finished last place according to the rules and scoring, I darn sure had a horse that allowed me to showcase those things. Overall, it was a win and I think that it was very good for business. I'll try and post some pics later on, once we get settled back in and all that.

Bravo Dan'l!

Now I know your the real deal. See below comment about calls from your website.
Yup. You spend your time riding.
Best regards,
dmw
Contact


Daniel Dauphin

Email me.

337-278-8506 ** Please, no calls after 9 pm, unless someone is dead.

214 Brussels Rd.
Rayne, La 70578

I know a woman that trains horse by playing with their heads, and she is damn good at it. She does, however, use force when necessary, and not one bit more than necessary. I was taught the old ways, and she shows me there are kinder, gentler ways. But she will put a boot right up the brisket if called for. She rarely has to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xCk78W6_A4

A video that I've just uploaded on the subject of Natural Horsemanship, and it's perversion.