Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.In this area it hasnt done a damn thing but drive down the price of mediocre horses and they are still being slaughtered by being hauled to Canada for slaughter.I personally think a horse is better of going to slaughter than starving in some ones horse lot.w/regards

I'm with you. Why let an old horse that's lived a long and useful life starve and get crippled up? It definitely has killed the price of average horses as well.

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
.I personally think a horse is better of going to slaughter than starving in some ones horse lot.w/regards

Is that the only choice? Poor Rosie poor Blackie.
You all got so many old sick horses you can't afford a 22 Rf to the head?

JL.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
.I personally think a horse is better of going to slaughter than starving in some ones horse lot.w/regards

Is that the only choice? Poor Rosie poor Blackie.
You all got so many old sick horses you can't afford a 22 Rf to the head?

JL.

Well if your going to use a 22rf to the head, you might as well get paid for it as to throw it in a hole.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
.I personally think a horse is better of going to slaughter than starving in some ones horse lot.w/regards

Is that the only choice? Poor Rosie poor Blackie.
You all got so many old sick horses you can't afford a 22 Rf to the head?

JL.

Well if your going to use a 22rf to the head, you might as well get paid for it as to throw it in a hole.

So you think getting hurded into a truck when your old and sick, carted how long? how far?
hurded into a slaughter house which would have many panic smells and noises, is the same thing
as a quite paddock, and a quick demise.?
And for an old faithful workhorse?
And do you have to make a buck out of everything?
JL.

No I think you are on the wrong page about this there are some horses I would shoot and bury on the ranch if they were good cow horses and my childrens pets,but if you are not smart enough to figure out that some horses are just livestock for slaughter because they cant be any better than that,you are clueless and not as smart as most of my other aussie friends.w/regards

Gophershooter

My thoughts exactly. I've also had some that aggravated me so much I wanted to shoot them and use them for coyote bait.

hello;
The mild sparks genrated here are nothing compared to what you'll find on some of the horse sites. Amazing how fanatical people can get on this subject, to the point where they've got Kalifornia to ban horse slaughter. No problem, they just get sold out of state and its off to the packing plant.
Acually, we live about 125 miles from a packing plant and the people who chose this end for their stock, no they are not pets, are able to take them directly there. To my way of thinking, its just as humane as the needle in the jugular and at least you can get a little compensation, as well as not having to worry about disposing of the body.
My only concern with horse slaughter relates to medications they may have received before slaughter. Regulations prescribe what medications an animal can have within a certain period prior to slaughter, but having been around long enough, I suspect a lot of horses go to slaughter on some kind of dope. For example, someone with a Pennicillin alergy can have a reaction from contaminated meat.
Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
some horses are just livestock for slaughter because they cant be any better than that,you are clueless and not as smart as most of my other aussie friends.w/regards

Ah, may be I'm getting a clue here. You have to pardon me as I've worked for some good horse breeders. One large place I rode for, there wasn't a horse on the place that couldn't be usefully ridden on stock. I took over some nags that were usually riden by Aborigines and was quite supprised on how well they worked cattle.
No horse on the property was ever thought of as "meat".

Other nohoper breeders though, would use any mad mare they had from (bad breaking possibly) with any stallion they thought was a fast runner.

They ended up with duds like you seem to have.
So, where did you get your duds?

The whole herd needed sending off to the glue
factory, but no, they used them to bust up the poor ringers.
Very sorry I'm not as smart as your other Aussie friends, it's a damn high bar you've set for me. Perhaps I've taken one buster too many.
John L>

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
hello;
For example, someone with a Pennicillin alergy can have a reaction from contaminated meat.

Grizz

Good post Grizz, but do people eat horses??
I don't think they are allowed for human consumption in Australia.
Could be we send them to USA for burgers?

Reminds me of the joke, during the depression here, fella was selling pies, 50% horse meat & 50% rabbit. Yep, one horse to one rabbit.
JL.

I was shopping yesterday in a Carrefour it's a big super walmart for Europe kind of affair.

Anyway, I walked by the equino meat section and I wanted to cry.

I never saw horse for sale in a supermarket in Spain, obviously Italy is different.

I don't like the idea of eating horses, but I know after spending my life around horses that there are some nags that aren't worth the feed they eat.

Kind of like dogs, I ate dog in Vietnam. Didn't like it, but felt sad too.

We have a plant here in Kaufman,Tx. that is owned by Belgians. The meat goes there and Japan. An amendment to the agriculture spending bill will take the inspectors away, so they will probably close. 60 people will be out of work. I don't know what will happen to the horses, some have said there are plenty of places to adopt them. If any of you are looking for a pet that may be old, crippled or just unwanted, we may have a bunch around here soon. Rob

JAL;I do not meen to offend or insult you but I am an old guy probably riding horses before you were born.your disrespect for abboriginnes makes me suspect of some of your comments,I am Irish and American Indian,born in Kentyucky grew up on the racetrack.Can ride any thing I am 60+ yo.w?regards

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Well what a know all cranky old coot you are.
Thing is I'm only 62.

Now fella, you started this with the above statement. Did you only want to hear from people who agreed with you?

You didn't state anything about the situation of the horses concerned, therefore my point about good old family horses, (remember Rosie and Blackie.) Yes, my mother-in-law snuck old Rosie off while the kids wern't looking.

Now you OLD GOAT, you reckon I'm clueless because I can't read your mind on what your on about.

And your STILL wrong re my thoughts on Aborigines. YOU don't have a clue on that.

Fact is MY BOSS at the time (1961) disliked his native workers for various reasons. As a 1st year Jackeroo it was apparent to me,us, and them. Us young Jackeroos on the other hand were in awe of the Abo's who were experts in their own element and how they thumbed their noses at the all powerful boss man.

Anyway from all that I assumed that this boss allocated them the worse horses.
So when he bushed all the Aborigines off the place the next year, we all got their usuall horses to work (in rotation).

One nag I got was possiblily the best stock horse on the place, but no one above me wanted him because as you got on him he had the habit of not being there when you were supposed to be hitting leather. This abo'al called Lucky had him just before me and must have sorted him out, (with patience and gentleness possibly) as I had no trouble with him.

Another time in my ignorance and impatience I rode in front of old Jackie to hurry the cattle up, and afterwards the head-stockman told me if I did that again he'd wack me over the head with some hobble chains. So he respected our native workers where the big boss didn't.

Now you may be a well informed fella on your own dung heap (read know all). But down under you'd get some funny looks if you walked up to our horses chousing them with a rope. You may even get a kick up the bum from the horse-tailer.
Ya see here we can train a horse to saddle, to stock work, AND we get them to stand in the mob out in the open, as we quietly walk up with the bridle over left arm, right arm out until knuckles touch nearside sholder, give em a hug around the neck, hold them with the reins there and slip the bridle on. What's with all the rope twerling??
So you old coot you don't seem to have a clue as what goes on down here.
Eat horses?? not us.
Anything else I can help you with??

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
JAL;I do not meen to offend or insult you but I am an old guy probably riding horses before you were born.your disrespect for abboriginnes makes me suspect of some of your comments,I am Irish and American Indian,born in Kentyucky grew up on the racetrack.Can ride any thing I am 60+ yo.w?regards

WTF?

quote:

Originally posted by D99:


WTF?

I think it's called a pissing contest.
Maybe the Chief is putting his war paint on?

JAL -

I just want to say, "I agree with you & certainly respect your view".

All our horses are working nags. All are good-behaving stock, and will do their best for us on request. Maybe that's because we don't "break" horses, we "gentle" them. Maybe it doesn't matter either way, I dunno.

What does matter is that when their times come, they deserve the most gentle, painless, swift, death possible, with all the respect we can give. Just like we hope for, for our sons, daughters, spouse, and yes, ourselves.

Slaughter house injections, contrary to popular myth, are NOT painless. The compund used is reportedly intensely, excrutiatingly painful, though only for an almost infintesimally brief time. Horses know when they go to the slughter house exactly what the inmates at Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald knew. They may be "dumb" animals (can't speak), but they are not stupid.

People made a living by guarding/sorting/killing inmates in the concentration camps, too. I don't see that as a legitimate reason to have kept those camps going.

Other views obviously vary, but that's mine, and apparently yours. Thanks for posting it.

I sat next to a guy from Nebraska in my college econ classes. He said his family fed-out horses for slaughtor. THey bred 1/4 horse mares and Belgian stallions. Raised the foals on pasture and then finished them in feedlots. Fed silage out of silos and then grained like crazy.

Had a next door nieghbor in MN that fed slaughtor horses, still does. Contracts with farmers to feed and care for the horses. The local feed stores or elevators delivered feed when the feeders emptied out. He hauled to TX to slaughtor.

Our nieghbor has cut back the last few years. Don't know why. He had, in the 80s when I occasionaly worked for him, 600 horses a week through his operation. He had two full time riders that rode every horse to check to see if broken. If saleable and broke the employees would ride them until ready for another auction. When I left he claimed he was a little discouraged-he said he had 70 stallions coming in from the south west that he hoped I'd break (he staggered under his load of BS he carried around). I told him I'd break as many as I could but the plan didn;t work out. He thought the classic flying, kicking,bucking, getting crippled etc. I would instead take them out in the swamp, have my brother hold a long rope to the halter while I'd climb on and off. THe horses would sink through the roots to thier bellies and couldn't buck much. Heavy snow also does wonders to contain the urge to keep bucking after the 2nd or third jump. He has horses racing all over the U.S., has auction barn going in Kansas and a huge farm he keeps his Brahma rodeo bulls on in winter. He has four rodeo strings roaming the contry all summer. I wish I had half the money making brainpower he has

If someone told me they were sending me 70 stallions to break, I'd have an urge to kill him. We used to always break a broncy colt in plowed ground, works on the same principle. They can't buck very hard and it wears them out in about 15 minutes they start paying attention.

They were going to get their acceleraters trimmed off before I got to them. I fear stallions (and bulls in confinement) so wouldn't go near them if they were intact. Problem is the attitude is often set once they're adults and castration them doesn't always work. Like I said I think he was throwing a line of bull at me about breaking 70 stallions.

TED

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
JAL -

I just want to say, "I agree with you & certainly respect your view".

All our horses are working nags. All are good-behaving stock, and will do their best for us on request. Maybe that's because we don't "break" horses, we "gentle" them. Maybe it doesn't matter either way, I dunno.

What does matter is that when their times come, they deserve the most gentle, painless, swift, death possible, with all the respect we can give. Just like we hope for, for our sons, daughters, spouse, and yes, ourselves.

Slaughter house injections, contrary to popular myth, are NOT painless. The compund used is reportedly intensely, excrutiatingly painful, though only for an almost infintesimally brief time. Horses know when they go to the slughter house exactly what the inmates at Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald knew. They may be "dumb" animals (can't speak), but they are not stupid.

People made a living by guarding/sorting/killing inmates in the concentration camps, too. I don't see that as a legitimate reason to have kept those camps going.

Other views obviously vary, but that's mine, and apparently yours. Thanks for posting it.

Dunno what you're referring to AC. They don't inject horses at the slaughterhouse (unless it's with a bolt gun). The drugs used to euthanize horses are barbiturates (ie. general anaesthetic - the same thing they use to put you under for an operation - is that painful???) and can't go into the human food chain. The only other drug available is called T-61, isn't approved for horses and, in fact, is off the market in the US due to (AFAIK) unproven concerns about pain. Same thing, though, it's not to be used on animals that will be used for food, so it's not at the slaughterhouse either.

In another life, I had the sad duty to shoot a number of horses. I honestly preferred it to having the vet needle them (especially in winter). The formulation of the drug used for livestock is THICK and is very hard to inject quickly, even through a large gauge needle. Even thicker in -15C weather. Plus, it takes a lot of the drug (20 - 30cc or more) to do the job. Pushing that much into a horse doesn't make it go down quickly. A bullet in the noggin is much quicker, and more humane IMHO, but a tad more messy.

Having said that, it's up to the owner. If they want Silver to die on the farm, then they (and most other farmers) have a problem dealing with the dead stock. You can soon run out of room to bury them, plus environmental regs and all.

Sending them to the slaughterhouse might not be the best option either, but fact is there is a market for the meat, and there are more horses than there are owners.

Comes right down to it, people will do whatever they can live with.

Funny how one kind of livestock is food and another becomes a buddy. I don't think people who eat meat should throw stones at people who eat other meat but that's just me.

I do have a predjudice against the thoroughbred industry for destroying so many colts just to eliminate bad genes but again, that's just me.

Back in the day (and maybe still) those carcasses were shipped to Louisiana to the alligator farms. Beautiful horses get slaughtered and fed to ugly alligators which are in turn slaughtered to make beautiful apparell accessories. Weird world when you think about it.

None of that stops me from wanting a horsehide sling for my 505 and an alligator catridge pouch, LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Funny how one kind of livestock is food and another becomes a buddy. I don't think people who eat meat should throw stones at people who eat other meat but that's just me.

I do have a predjudice against the thoroughbred industry for destroying so many colts just to eliminate bad genes but again, that's just me.
.

Well I don't know if I was throwing stones so much as wondering aloud where people draw the line. I've shot a few horses, cats and dogs and sometimes with extreem prejudice.

But if i'd ridden a horse for years and had good service I'd tend to lookout for him/her in their old age, IF POSSIBLE. I wouldn't send them off before their time just to make a buck.

Of course I can see where you can't have dozens of dead and dieing nags on a small lot. Just wondering why people have many horses on a small lot?? Even small farms here have digging equipment to bury a dead body here and there.
And also some animals in particular societies have different status. Asians eat cats and dogs, goats, cockerochers etc. Should we follow suit??? How about all the game dog people sending off their old muts to feed people, would that not raise a few eyebrows??

I know i'd probably comment on it, but then someone would set me straight I suppose.

I suppose many feel the same way about pet pigs or cows. When you develop a bond with any animal it ceases to be livestock and gets a soul; imagined or not.

People who pack too many horses on a small lot can be no different than either the puppy mill owner who does it for profit or the eccentric with 100 cats in the house who deludes theirself in to thinking the conditions are humane. Most folks are in some reasonable space between the two.

Sending race dogs to the slaughter house would offend most but in the end, its not much different than the reality they (the dogs) face at the end of their useful careers. Only a very few get adopted; the rest are destroyed.

Some more thoughts. Dieing out in the big home paddock is no bed of roses anyway. Too crook to get up, dieing of thurst, crows eating your eyes out dingoes eating your bum out. I saw the scrape marks of an old milker cow once where she tried to get up for God knows how long.

Then there's the people who can't afford expensive vets looking in all the time. Lifes a bitch.

Cause I don't know as much about anything as I make out esp. horses, but seems to me a misconception on the word "break" in training horses.
When I asked my dear old mum once what breaking in a horse entailed, she said "it's being cruel to them". (My parents knew less than me, and my kids know more than me.)

Anyway to the uniniated, a horse being "gentled"
that throws a tantrum against a hitching rope shore looks like it's being treated cruelly.

That American Indian fella that "speaks" their language seems to be the way to go.
Can't remember his name but I read his book.

Inexperence and impatience seems to be the problem with some horse breakers here. A jackeroo I worked with tried his hand on three youngsters. One was a real lamb, one sorta normal,(ie a bit nervous for a while) and the last didn't take kindly to the bit training or riding at all.

"Breaking" often means breaking their spirit, pounding on them and screaming and hollering until they give up. That was what the guy I referred to in the post above was talking about with the 70 stallions. THe horses I've trained had been around me so long they had no clue they'd been broken- I just get on one day and we'd be off.

I have a foal right now that is extremely excitable and acts like a kid with too much caffiene. My 8 yr old and I had her out looking at her as she scratched around on the lawn. I told Rachael that we should see if we could get the foal to rear and plunge. I got a strap that I used on the previous project foal. I threw it over her back, reached underneath (this is where one gets a kick in the head) for the strap-end and buckled it up tight. Ethyl puffed herself up once or twice and went back to eating. I was so disapointed. WE tried blankets under it, then flapping feed sacks, nothing worked. SHe stood there stupid. When she is nearing two I'll begin getting on and off while she's eating grain. Before she knows it she'll be broke to ride.

I have a 2 1/2 yr old I broke the same way. WE ride everywhere using a halter. Never had a bit in his mouth or a saddle on his back. He'll load on trailers with no problem as the foal does. He's been gun trained for nearly two years. He's been ready to begin Civil War reenacting anytime.

There is a difference between breaking and training. Most people train.

What I can't comprehend are the people that wait until a horse is two before they start training. I grew up on a dairy farm and every calf was halter broke from the day they were born. Why don't people do the same with horses? If foals are used to being handled there shouldn't be any trouble progressing through training providing one watches out for the fear response ie getting kicked in the head reaching for the strap the first time it's cinched around the chest.

TED

quote:

Originally posted by nelsonted1:
"Breaking" often means breaking their spirit, pounding on them and screaming and hollering until they give up. That was what the guy I referred to in the post above was talking about with the 70 stallions. [QUOTE]


Just talking (typing) here. You illustrate my point about the word "break".
I think the fella with the 70 Stallions was refering to himself as the one copping the punishment.

First you reckon it means breaking their spirit, and yet you use the word "broke" with your own horses.

NO horse breaker worth his salt would expect to do this or harm the horse. Compare for instance using break, as in "break in your rifle barrel", where it is actually "babied" not smashed.

[Quote]
Before she knows it she'll be broke to ride.

I have a 2 1/2 yr old I broke the same way.

WE ride everywhere using a halter. Never had a bit in his mouth or a saddle on his back.
There is a difference between breaking and training. Most people train. [Quote]


No, no difference if done properly.


[Quote]
What I can't comprehend are the people that wait until a horse is two before they start training.[Quote]

Couldn't agree more. But the end result can be the same if done properly, but it is harder for the horse and breaker.

[Quote]
the fear response ie getting kicked in the head reaching for the strap the first time it's cinched around the chest.
TED

At this stage there should be NO fear factor.

The storys above about the horses bucking supprised me. Usually our horses don't buck during breaking. But on big stations where they're turned out for a break (read rest), until the next working season, well lookout for their first ride then. Their spirit will be in evidence.
I think the Injin I mentioned name was Marty Roberts or something simular. A must read for horse breakers. Gee, if I keep reading myself, I'll soon be an expert.

I have broke and trained many horses, still do, and I am not a hard displinarian, prefering patience and kindness that develops trust. Not to say I don't whip one now and then for the really bad stuff, but its quick and over with in a hurry when I do...Then I'm ticked off because I just set my program back about a month!! and have to start from square one.

I have two well bred quarter horses right now, one my 14 year old team roping horse who heads and heels. The other a started 5 year old that I am bringing along real slow, and have roped a lot of slow cattle on so far and am going to faster cattle now, he is coming along real well.
Today its cheaper to buy one that is well started in the bit than it is to raise them, but pick your horse carefully and know what your doing or get someone to help you.

As to wild horses, that is the biggest can of political worms in the history of our Gov. It is costing the American taxpayer a ton of money to feed the penned horses all over the country and nobody wants them..They have destroyed so much range that its unbelieveable and the destroyed range has killed off most of the deer, elk and antelope in that area..Its just a damn joke..Those old ferrel horses are not Mustangs, they are ferrel horses that have been turned loose by ranchers over the years and they, for the most part, arn't worth killing, they are ugly, have foul dispositions, they are a wild animal..They can be broke, but then you have nothing..It is a shame.

Well ray,I've got news for you. BLM horses do just fine when properly trained and thousands of them get used safely every hunting season by outfitters all over.

For a mountain horse.I'll take a good blm horse any day of the week. Over some inbred line bred fucking quarterhorse,which is over muscled,small footed with no bottom end or endurance,shaped like a 55 gallon drum and lazy. I've seen and talked to enough vets and trainers that have had more problems with the wonderful quarterhorse,then any other breed.The reason horses in america are compared to the quarter horse,is because of the shear volume of the inbred bastards that are in circulation.

On a side note,the blm stallions captured on the white sands missle base in new mexico.Showed nearly all of the traits that midnight or badger the founding stallions of the aqha breed displayed. Which speaks volumes of what a mix breed turd the quarter horse really is. They are about like todays labrador retriever. A jumble of mix bred shit.


BLM horses cause the same amount of damage to wildlife habitat as grazing sheep and cattle do. Yet we subsidize these fuckers constantly,because of the ag lobby.

They might make a mountain pack horse, but try and make a competitive roping horse, cutting horse, reiner or anything else out of one. Sure your vets had more problems with quarter horses, there are 100 for every Arab, maybe more like a thousand or two. They are the most trainable and athletic breed. Believe me, I show cutting horses and if anything else would win money, they'd be training them. They don't give a damn if they have papers, pretty heads, hips or anything else, just how they work a cow and win money. Something like 95 % are registered quarter horses, pretty much the rest are paints otherwise known as quarter horses with color.

Sledder,
I can't agree with you..All horses are individuals, and need to be taken one at a time..your lumping all registered horses in one pile and doing the opposite with your ferrel horse...

I know that some ferrel horses make good mountain horses, so do mules, but I would put my quarter horse up against any horse in the mountains, he's been there. He was ranch raised and used on the ranch for about 5 years..He is damn well bred, good looking, and worth a ton of money. That also makes him easy to sell if you need to. His papers make him worth a little more even though he is a guilding. What he knows in the arena adds greatly to that.

Your assesment is flawed, in that a horse is a product of his up bringing...raise him in a pen and he will forever be worthless, raise him working on a ranch and he will sometimes be a great horse....A mustang worth is by the pound. I had a pretty nice mustang horse one time and he was a pretty darn good heel horse and fair head horse, but he sold for $1500, not much for how good he was...but he never did excell at anything..

I am more than glad to let you ride the ferrel horses if you like them but to refer to a good quarter horse as inbred is just ridiculas, and shows a lack of experience, or just plain ignorance.

What our brilliant Government has done now is made it against the law to kill horses or to bury them on most lands. In other words no-one knows what to do with them.

The killer plants were the best option and the most humane one.

What is starting to happen now is people are turning their horses loose on the highways, and on Govt. lands in the middle of the night. That will be millions of horses before we know it..

I know some folks that quit branding just so they can dispose of horses in that manner when they get old..They don't figure they have any other option.

We are headed for another "immagration problem" because our stupid politicians listened to a bunch of assholes living in their Ivory Towers in NY and Kalifornia!

Any time you pass laws that are just wrong from the start, or ignore the enforcement of existing laws you create a problem that just cannot be solved and still get you votes! One big can of worms comming up, I think Washington collets them...

God bless our politicians with a brain, please!

Ray;You are 100% correct.I read the other day that in the Soth Eastern states that they estimate that 90,000 horses have been turned loose this fall due the drought and high cost of hay. w/regards

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by gophershooter:
.I personally think a horse is better of going to slaughter than starving in some ones horse lot.w/regards

Is that the only choice? Poor Rosie poor Blackie.
You all got so many old sick horses you can't afford a 22 Rf to the head?

JL.

Well if your going to use a 22rf to the head, you might as well get paid for it as to throw it in a hole.

I know emotionally this thought might bug people but you could eat it or donate the meat to the needy though I'm not sure of the legality of the latter in the US and various states. But it is meat.

when the vet tells me that we can do no more, i call the butcher. he comes around leading the horse around the pasture letting them relax and enjoy themselfs for awhile before he leads them up in the trailer making sure they are still good with the situation and then the boltgun.
he is a proffesionel and the horse never sees it coming.
i would much rather have that done to myself than wasting away in a hospital bed.
we also get 1.5$ a kilo for the meat, which i then put into the getting new blood to the farm fond.
to me it is the best solution to a lousy situation.

regards peter

p.s. yes i eat horse myself, and like the taste. just not my own.