Ok so I'm a little weird. I was at a local show today with the kids looking at pigs horses etc. a guy there had llamas and some info regarding using them for packing. It seems a grown llama can carry 100-150 lbs of gear and are more sure footed than horses in the mountains....hmmm I thought about sheep hunting right away. I generally dislike horses although I used to ride with the neighbours daughter, had alterior motives though cause the girl was a cute little thing. Anyway I wuoldn't mind leading a llama around the mountains if it would work, anyone have any experience with these animals?

I don't have any experience using them although there are quite a few people around here who pack them for hunting. One guy who lives about a block from me has seven of them.

From what several different llama packers I know tell me, yes, they are great animals for packing in and out of the mountains, but that a load of 75/80 pounds, is max.

That 100/150 pounds sounds kinda high, but maybe your llama packers have bigger animals.

Good luck. L.W.

CC - if you do get one, watch out for horses, many horses that have not seen a llama before will freak right out when they do see one, I know guys who ahve run into someone with a llama with their packstring of horses and a rodeo ensued, resulting in a big mess and some ill tempered people (it would suck to have someone hurt)...

If you do get one, since there will be more horses around than llamas, if you see horses approaching you should lead your animal off the trail to avoid any rodeo action...

Now I love horses and don't know anything about llamas so I'm a bit biased, but man, get a good packhorse if you want to walk and pack your stuff on an animal, you can't beat'em. And if for any reason you need to ride it, you'll be good...

hello;
Generally, you should only pack about 150 lbs. on a horse, as the books say. Of course it varies with the horse and the circumstance, but packing is harder on the horse than a rider. The most I've heard you should load on a Llama is 80 lbs, which means you need about twice as many of them to carry the same load and you can't ride them if your saddle horse goes lame. I've seen some people,on foot, leading a string of these beasts off into the wilderness and I gotta ask myself, why for?
As for pack saddles for Llamas, I don't think there is such a thing. The ones I've seen, all carried a kind of a saddle bag like they use to pack dogs.
Griz

Thanks for the info, the guy said they could carry about 25% of their body weight max and that a big one would weigh 450 lbs so thats about 112 lbs sho you're probably right about the 80% part. I knew that horses hate the little critters but wouldnt have considered getting out of the way on the trail--good advice indeed. Additionally he had a large
saddle bag but suggested that a sawbuck was really the best way to pack them. My main reason for being interested in this is that a friend of mine has 4 llamas and would sell the lot to me for a couple hundred bucks. lol as to why walk when you can ride a horse, I really don't like horses I'm not scared of them they just piss me off. I could understand a horseman wondering why walk when you can ride..I'd just be happy moving up from carrying a back pack it's a big increase in luxury.

Lots of things to consider.

thanks again

the chef

quote:

My main reason for being interested in this is that a friend of mine has 4 llamas and would sell the lot to me for a couple hundred bucks.

Two hundred bucks??!!! Hell, if you have a place to pasture them, I'd snap that up in a New York minute! Even if you don't use them you can eat them and still be ahead of the game!

Seriously, from what the Llama people around here tell me, they are much easier to take care of out in the mountains, than horses or mules. I've not used Llamas, but have packed and used horses and mules, many times, and know what a pain in the rear end they can be.

If you do a search on "Llamas" on the Internet, you can find out a lot about packing and using them for hunting.

FWIW, L.W.

Hey CC: don't give up on those horses, even if they do piss you off, I know you're just getting in to sheep hunting, give it a couple of years until your totally addicted, you might find riding them broncs ain't so bad, they'll get you into sheep country only exceptional people can hike into, maybe your one of them.

I'm not saying don't get a llama, if that's your thing giv'er, anyone I see out in sheep country I respect.

Horses used to piss me off too, until I got comfortable enough on them, now I'm lost without them. I can go places now in two days it would take a hiker 10 days to get to. If this works here's a pic:

Rocky Pass

Gorgeous picture....that's what the mountains are all about. I used to back pack a lot and I'm sure I can get back into the swing withouth too much of a problem. If you do any pre season scouting and need a hiking partner who is at home in the bush let me know.

the chef

Llamas have both good & bad points.

As mentioned they only carry about 1/2 of what a horse will pack. so you will need twice as many.

Good points. is they don't require any shoeing. No farrier bill every 8 weeks. They will eat a wider variaty of plants,so it's easier for them to find food on the mountain. You won't have to pack in any grains or pellets. Their padded hooves are easier on the trail than steel shoed horse hoofs.

The down side. They are stubborn. When they get tired the lay down and that's where you camp. No amount of urging will get them to move on up the trail when they are tired. You will need to take them on lots of hikes to get them in shape. Most people let their Llamas sit in the pasture until they want to go packing then the animals are not in shape, and won't go very far. To me it's not as much fun to take them for a hike 2-3 times a week as it is to go for a horse ride twice a week.

Last but not least, I came across a family with 3 pack Llamas last sumer up in the Wind Rivers. They were camped just before a pretty deep river crossing. Folks told us we couldn't cross the river, too deep and swift. They about drowned themselves and their Llamas. My 1100lb horse with my 200pounds on top easily crossed the stream, Water over my knees, but we crossed just fine. There is something to be said for a heavy tall animal when it comes to fjording streams.

Something else to consider are the Pack Goats. They pack 40lbs each. Will jump from rock to rock or cross on a log over deep water. They will eat and digest anything. The strings I've seen are not even teethered together. They just follow the humans down the trail like the Pied Piper.

Four Lakes Basin & Cyclone Pass

There are several choices for llama pack saddles - just be prepared to spend more on the packs than the llamas!

Flaming Star Llama Packs

Bonny Doon Llama Packs

Quality Llama Products
(look in the Tack section)

I have three llamas I've been working with this winter, and plan to take them out on some summer trips and hopefully a hunting trip in the fall.

Washougal Chris

Why send a boy to do a mans job is my opine..

Llamas are for Andies cowboys? I think!

I am a horse guy, have been riding all my life. I think horses are great for hunting and geting you into the remote back country. I also think that llamas could be a hudge advantage in sheep hunting. When i was younger a frind and i use too pack one of my grandpas llamas. that thing could just about go anywhere. we made a make shift sadle out of bulap bags with no sinches. if we balanced the load properly it would stay on pretty good. i would get real pack saddle for sheep hunting now a days back then when i was young didnt have a lot of money so we never did buy one. we have been tossing the idea around of getting another llama and pack saddle for are sheep hunts. they are the easies animals to take care of up in the mountains. i think i wast more time looking after horses up in the mountains than anything. a llama u just tie to a tree with 20ft lead rope and leave him be. they can get to places that no horse could dream of going. i think the ideal sheep hunt you would use horsed to get u into the backcountry and then take your llamas up the mountain with you and stay on the tops of the mountains with your llamas and light weight camping gear. then you dont wast the time of climbing up the mountain each day you are allreday up there with your llamas. some horse may shy from llamas but i use to lead our llama form my horse all the time. i even lead that lamma beind a snowmobile at a full run for about 20 min. i think llamas are a great idea for hunting and am supprised more people dont use them for packing. i belive if you have a good string they are kinda like the goats you dont even have to lead them just the front one. they will follow u arond like a dog.

Chef,

A couple in our 4H club have a dozen or so and they spent 2 months last summer in Alberta camping and backpacking around Bampf (sp) and had a ball. We saw the movies. I think they pack around 65 - 80 lbs just fine. Also, they will pull you along on steep rocks and are even better than mules on rocks.

Theirs are also show animals and they are getting $1,500 for males and $4,000 for females, so it would seem you can't loose out for the price you were offered. Besides, they taste like chicken!!

Yeah get a llama mountain lions like them better than horses.One of our Bozeman yuppies had two killed after the lion jumped an 8ft fence.Yes they cause big horse wrecks,We were packing in a couple of years ago and ran in to a string of them in the Crazies but it was a big open meadow and we were not to close to them but the horses all,ranch horses got bug-eyed and blowing,after we passed them the horses caught their scent and they all stopped and turned to look at them.w/regards

I found that the best way to pack a llama....is skinned and quartered! I have seen horses flip out, kick at, bite at, chase, and just plain lose their mind when encountering a llama.

I don't have anything against llamas, in the Wind Rivers a lot of folks use them. Great for packing marijauan, granola, bongs, energy crystals, and what ever else the hippies need to bring in the woods. I'll stick with ponies.

MG

Another disadvantage to the llama, you look like a jackass riding one!

If you ride a Llama you are a jackass!!! Funny how much interest this topic has generated....who woulda thunk.

the chef

Sorry guys. I hate to spoil your fun, but you can't ride a llama. Oughta make good bear bait though
Grizz

Reminds me of the guy I heard about. He wanted to bring some bear bait in but couldn't carry enough on the back of the horse. So he goes to the horse plant buys an old nag destined for glue. He leads the nag into his camp with his good horse and once there--bang. Instant bear bait!!!!

I love it

the chef

You're right Grizz, riding a llama is like riding a moped or a fat chick.

the chef

Have you ever prepared one for fine dining, Llama, that is.
Grizz

Nope never eaten Llama-they're too ugly to eat!!!

Llamas??!!You gotta be freakin kiddin me!!! Do you eat yogurt on your grape nuts too??? As for being more sure footed than a mule, maybe. They are smaller which makes it easier fot them to get places a horse/mule can't go. I'll stick with my mule.

I don't think you'd ever have a llamma come nuzzle your leg to get you up from an afternoon nap because they're anxious to get back on the trail. Or nicker good morning to you as you get in the car to go to work. Don't think a llama would stand up to well to a mountain lion attack either.

you have to watch with llama's as some places ie: northern bc they are not allowed to travel into as the theory is they may pass diseases onto the wild sheep herds FYI

Many years ago, when the great divide formed between wild animals and humans, horses and dogs crossed over to the human side because they wanted to. Llamas and cats crossed over much later, reluctantly, and they still today sometimes wonder if they made the right choice.

I realize it's just opinion, but my opinion is based on specific experience, and if you will listen, it will save you a lot of wasted time and money. Sure, llamas are fun, and they will pack, but it all depends on how serious you are about really packing. You can put a lot of money and time into llamas, and there is just so much that they won't or can't do. You can put the same money, and energy, and perhaps less time into some horses or mules, selected specifically to suit your goals, and style, and have a vastly greater probablility of success.

Maybe 20 years ago, I lived in Estes Park Colorado for a while, and got into the Llama packing. I learned a lot. Later I tried packing them in Alaska near the summit pass area on the Kenai Peninsula, and I learned a lot more.

The llamas will not really help with long hikes, because they will just lay down, and refuse to go further, or at least the weakest one in the pack will, and that stops the rest of them.

They don't string along in a line well. In the Andes they just herd them along like they do with the pack goats in Pakistan, and that's the best way.

There are lots of llamas out there that are worthless as packers, and culling through them to find a good one can be expensive.

Frankly, they are a lot of trouble. It is really unbelievable the amount of gear you have to deal with just to pack the critters, and I'm talking about expensive gear. The short list is Truck, trailer, pack saddles, panniers, halters, lead rope, a place to keep them - pasture, and a long list of small stuff.

Now, the real problem - when you grow out of the urge to deal with the spitting, aloof, lot of them, it's difficult to sell them and get anywhere close to the money you'll have invested. You might as well butcher one a year for the freezer. Yes, they taste pretty good.

Also, I found that they can't go anywhere a good donkey or mule or Fjord can't go - within reason. There may be some difference, but in the real world, it won't matter. If you can't pack the quarters down to a staging spot, then it won't matter if you have llamas, or a good pack donkey.

It was only after I got away from Llamas and got some small mules that I really began to learn what packing is all about. Seriously and I can't emphasise it enough - llamas are a distraction from the real world of pack trips in North America.

If you have to own a gas hog truck, and a good safe and road worthy stock trailer in the first place, to haul enough of the llamas around to do any good, then you might as well have donkeys, or small horses, or perhaps mules.

The next thing I learned is that once you become comfortable dealing with horses or mules, then sooner or later you are going to want to join in with friends and get out for short rides on weekends. Wilderness and overnight packing is great, but the opportunity for quick afternoon rides is much more frequent, and is great for getting to know your animal, so when that once or twice a year opportunity for a real pack trip comes along, you will more likely be ready.

Also, pack gear for horses is incomperable to that for llamas. It's in another class altogether. Just look at the Decker pack saddle for horses/mules. What a piece of gear! There is so much almost lost art in horse packing, that it's a shame. Those old time packers, and some modern ones too, are really skilled, and it's an art and skill which is worthwhile. A guy could really get into it, and still take years to learn.

If I did it again, I would buy two geldings, already trained to ride, and two really good riding saddles. I'm talking about the kind of saddles that have lots of D rings, crouper, and breast collar, and extra D rings on the cinch for lashing down panniers or slung mantied loads. You'll need to learn how to use manila rope, but there are specific accessories available, which allow you to pack on the riding saddles - lots of it - some poor and some good. Mostly, you will need to learn how to pack to protect the horse from injury, protect his sides, etc. Wearing a bloody hole in your horse is unacceptable.

These are skills that llama packers miss out on, using their type of gear, but these horse packing skills are centuries old. Some of these skills go back to old Europe. Heck, read the journals of Louis & Clark. Imagine the years of horse packing by the Blackfoot along their old foot roads along the eastern front of the Rockies in Montana, today the Bob Marshall wilderness. Imagine the old skills used on the Stepps of Mongolia, by Gingas Khan and his accompanyment. Imagine what that guy would have thought of llamas. Imagine the mongel horde riding llamas, shooting their arrows backward, slowing the animal as they lured their enemy close enough for the shot. Instead of using the sturdy Mongolian pony, imagine Marco Polo packing llamas on his journey along the Silk Road. I don't think history would have been the same. Horse packing skills are very old, only made better by such people as the Decker Brothers. Read man, read.

I remember seeing pictures of the yak packers in Tibet. Man, those guys know how to pack an animal. Their methods and style is much more similar to horse packing than llama packing.

As you get into it, maybe you'll want another horse later, but two is good to start, because you can live with a smaller trailer and truck. Personally, I went with the Fjord horses, and highly recommend them. They can pack a real load, and are really good in the back country. They are certainly not clumsy as some people think they are. They are sure footed, and sturdy, and very calm, even when the pucker factor is off the scale for me.

Next, I would choose my riding friends carefully. You want to ride with someone who will slow down to match your skill at first. You would't just hop in with any pilot for a flight in a small plane would you? Same with horses. Personally, I hired a brash young woman, who had great horse skills, and nothing to prove, to go riding with me often for two summers in Idaho. I had two sturdy Fjord geldings, and we would swtich horses, and ride every chance we could get away. As I remember, I paid her $10 an hour for doing something she enjoyed anyway, and I sure did enjoy her company. I didn't have to prove anything with her either, because she was clearly more skilled at riding than I could ever be. We rode high mountain trails, through the forest with the free ranging cows, chased by the herd bull, and down creeks for miles to teach the horses to deal with crossing water. I spent many evening hours studying topo map software, then actually going there to see if was really as pretty as I imagined. Often it was prettier.

There is just so much to learn, and you might as well spend your time learning real packing skills, slings, hitches, dealing with the right kind of rope, picket lines, horse skills, common sense, etc., rather than fooling yourself for several year with llamas.

Really two Fjord horses, or similar animals (not hot blooded) are much less trouble than llamas, friendlier, have real personalities, and don't spit, and you can ride them.

KB

$200 for a LLama, hang in there and he'll give you $300 to take the damn thing!

Really, as I said before they taste pretty good. I spent many miles on the trail with these critters, and eventually got to thinking how they resembled an elk without horns. Well one thing led to another, and now I know they don't measure up to elk meat, but if you feed them good before butcher, and get them sort of fat, they are worth the trouble.

I know that by the time a guy gets tired of dealing with them there is no better revenge than having a serving with potatoes and gravy.

I have never had horse meat, but would in the right situation, but I recommend Lamma filets as a satisfactory substitute for elk any day.

Heck, if you can get one for $200, that's a good deal.
KB