Been thinking quite a bit about these horses.. I'm involved with my first one right now and have a few questions.

I'm a hound and bird dog guy, have been for close to 30 years. Been fortunate and have had a couple of special ones, a couple of very good ones a number of serviceable ones and a few absolutely bad ones (that didn't last long)

The horse I have no is a decent animal, but does not have the want to please nature of most every dog i've ever had. She's respectful and obedient most of the time but it is a different feel and mind set from a canine

Her whole focus in life is food, absolutely ruled by the desire to eat.. so it seems to me

you can modify her behavior (train her quickly to do something) with food..

negative/positive reinforcement is about useless
i feel (too darn big to whip!) and a pat on the back means nothing to her it seems..

is this just my ignorance coming thru not being familiar with these creatures or are they that different from the canines?

Horses are basic creatures, and are prey animals. They have limited concerns. Food, safety, and comfort. If 'Ol Roy fell off Trigger and busted his head open, Trigger would stand there and eat grass while Roy bled to death. Your horse will hang around you willingly for only two reasons, you might feed him, or he feels safe with you. You can teach them a lot thru trained response. I feed my horses treats, not too often, but regular enough. It makes them real easy to catch. I find them to be extremely predictable animals. Read some good articles by good horsemen, and take it to heart where opinions don't vary much. Horses aren't that stupid, however. The more you use them, you'd be surprised at how much they can figure out. But everything they learn is by action/reaction methods. They react according to what action they expect from you.

As Wymple said, It's the difference between a predator and a prey animal.

I'd first say that your assessment of negative/positive reinforcement is incorrect. This is the most misunderstood aspect of training, and I won't address it now, but if you got along good with the dogs, you probably have a handle on it anyway. In short, positive reinforcement is pretty much the biggest tool we have, with negative reinforcement being necessary to varying degrees, depending on the horse. Like Ray Hunt Said, "make the right thing easy, and the wrong thing difficult."
Secondly, horses aren't dogs, and I've never seen a horse (not even a bottle fed orphan) show that same type of attachment, so for you not to feel that bond is normal, in my opinion, at least. I've seen a trainer, who's background was with dolphins, who used food to teach her horse all sorts of things. I've seen a trick horse, who was supposedly "crazy" that would get treats to perform (though she only did groundwork, and wasn't ridden). I've yet to see anyone who actually rode the horse, and had that part of the training done very well, who used food for a motivator.

About the most important part of the man/horse relationship is pecking order. If your horse is respectful and obedient (i.e. submissive), and doesn't seem to take advantage of you, even when she can, then you've already accomplished more than most ever do.

As to the feeding, I really don't like to see people hand feed a horse, as this is a Pandora's box and can lead to a myriad of other problems. It is much harder, if it is even possible, to remain the leader of the pack when you willingly give up food to a subordinate animal. Your horse may connect the food to the action that you want it associated to, but I guarantee you that they will also connect being hand fed with being "in charge". I'm not saying that you can't work through this, but you will have introduced confusing circumstances into the relationship. In fact, my horses aren't allowed to eat with me standing there at all, and can never approach the food bucket, and me, with pinned ears. After I dump the feed, I stand there and expect them to stand a little ways away, waiting on me to leave before they can eat.

When I was in college, I was already training horses and remember a lady who was in the horse business, not just a recreational owner, who used to feed treats. She would keep sugar cubes in her shirt pocket, and one day, while she was talking to another person, one of her horses went for the sugar and bit her breast off. No amount of motivation is worth that IMHO.

From what you've already told us about your mare, it seems that you are on a good track already. Keep it simple, and keep making wet saddle blankets. Good luck, and sorry if I went on for too long.

Just look at the way horses/mules react when one of their crew dies. They give it a quick sniff and walk away. No remorse, no attachment, etc. Elephants are more like dogs than horses. Elephants are probably more like people than dogs.

Whatever horses are, they ain't dogs!!

quote:

If 'Ol Roy fell off Trigger and busted his head open, Trigger would stand there and eat grass while Roy bled to death.

BINGO!

Are your Mules any better?

thanks guys interesting reading

I definitely think I was expecting the horse to be "like a big dog" and it's thrown me off a bit

she'll listen to me and is respectful, but you have to stay on her..

I've trained enough dogs that i know about being the alpha and figured it was the same with horses.. we are still getting along well..

hope it keeps going that way!!

thanks

Don't pay any attention to Will. If you rode mules you'd be a cranky ol pain in the ass too.
Once you've been amongst them, there's no such thing as too much gun.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
Are your Mules any better?

It may not be obvious but I like mules a whole lot better than horses, but, no, they are no different about death.

They are more dog-like than a horse but I will get a lot of hate mail for that!

If your lucky, real lucky, you'll have one good horse or mule before you die.

Anyone here got a "desire to please/motivation" remedy for wives. Mine is a redheaded roan who bucks quite a lot, but can't seem to shake me. Seems the nicer I am to her, the more she bucks. I damned sure like her one colt so far though. And am working on another.

Curb bit and a neck strap

but i'm a rookie

Sevenxbjt,
ever try the snaffle to neck rope to nada transition

once you've ridden with nada, you'll never go back to big iron. that is a feeling of freedom mi amigo.

Not that I don't appreciate the time and skill involved in making a spade bit horse.

For me, the goal is to get to less, not more. Plus, being a trainer, I have to let others use my horse from time to time, and I'd not want to let just anyone, and half the other trainers, onto my spade bit horse.

First, let me say that I'm not much of a roper, at all. I use a rope mostly in the round pen on colts, but pretty much only in the ranch horse comps on cattle. I've never done the tied hard and fast thing, and don't see anything about it that I, the horse, or the cattle should like. We don't have huge pastures like ya'll do out there, and if I have to doctor something, it is usually NBD to drive it up to the pens, and do what I need to in a chute. Cheating, I know, but quicker, easier, and less stress on the cattle. Also less work for me and the horse, and I mean that in a detrimental way.
I now have mulehide on my horns (on my breaking and ranch cutting saddles anyway), and 60 ft. poly's, though I"ve yet to try a rawhide honda. I'll readily admit, though, that I can't reach out there with them like you guys can. Guess I'll just have to keep practicing. Damn. The first time I saw someone roping a cow standing still from a horse standing still, a light went off in my head. Most of those tied hard and fast guys like to rope the same way, hard and fast, and that has never appealed to me, just as that massive jerk hasn't. How in the hell are you supposed to keep a colt together when he knows that he's about to be jerked like that? I don't know, so I slide and dally.

If you, or anyone else wants to have some fun, just keep your horse in it's halter one day, and mount up in an arena, don't do this for the first time while out'n about. I'll qualify this by saying that the horse should be quite familiar with leg cues before you try this, and that I usually do this on my colts for a ride or two after 2-3 weeks, though I'm not advocating anyone trying this on a horse that green. It really helps solidify to a horse what your legs mean and what they don't mean, and has the wonderful side effect of slowing them down (if they have any sense at all).

Mount up, tie the lead around the horn with a couple of half hitches, and leave enough slack so that they can move their heads comfortably any way they want to, and Cross Your Arms. Do not do this on a horse that may buck, unless you can handle that fairly well, and do not grab for the lead rope unless you truly have to. I would also advise you to have at least an hour or so set aside when you try this, but it should take much less than that if the horse is prepared at all, and you keep your cool.

Try to do some simple circles around the arena. You'll probably be going pretty fast, as the horses are very likely to think that's what you want, at first so expect some speed and confusion, and relax. Just sit tight, and they will slow down and start thinking, which is what we really want from them anyway. Remember that you have something the horse wants, or will want, air. Generally they will try and cut short at one point in the arena. I will start there and simply apply inside leg to push them back out where they should be. This is when most speed up, and by that, I mean run as fast as they can. As always, remove your leg pressure when they respond the least little bit, and ignore their speed. I feel completely naked without spurs, but that is up to you, I do however prefer blunt spurs so I can use them alot and not tickle or jab the horse. Don't overload the horse with too many cues, and keep this VERY simple by being open to and willing to accept the smallest try on their part.

Once you can trot around the arena in that direction, with only your legs (again, perfect circles aren't necessary, as long as they are in the ballpark the first time), try asking them to cut through the middle and changing directions. Be ready for them to miss the cue, and just go on and try again on the next circle. NBD. Be the end of this ride, my colts are generally still somewhat confused, but the kind of confused that comes from a whole new world opening before you. They are also generally waiting for me to tell them everything, which makes stopping sooooo easy, you just sit and stop riding, and they want to stop. Bingo. No pulling on their mouths.

If you are the type who likes a challenge, and enjoys doing neat stuff, you are now hooked on riding without a bridle, and will be cussing me for years to come.

Note, that this is for just a few rides, maybe even just one, and I may ride them this way every few weeks or so. If you don't feel you are up to it, then cheat and keep the bridle on, just put your hands down. Also remember that control is the goal. We don't want this experience to teach the horse that he can get away with things. I would not try and go strait from snaffle to no bridle in 2-3 weeks, this is just a taste, but it sure tells you where you are really at with your horse. Try doing a trail course this way if you think you have your horse real broke.

As to the transition, take a rope that fits easily around your horse's neck. I use a few feet of the same rope I make my halters out of, but a lariat loop works fine, and hold it in your hand (one handed) just like you would hold reins. Ride with it just like it was connected to a bit. Again, your horse should have a good idea alrady as to what the various cues mean, but perfection isn't needed. Try and stop him, back him, and turn him. If you ride with you body position and legs, as you should. You will be pleasantly surprised to find that you have 95% of the control with a simple rope around their neck, that you do with a bit in their mouths. It is easy to see that the process of going brideless is more of a weaning off of the bit than anything else. Just as most of the spade bit training is done in a bosal and then translated in the two rein and weaned. Sorry for writing a book, but if you try it, you'll love it.

A good many trainers, though not as many as in years past, use a tack collar like you Californios use the two-rein to put those finishing touches on neck reining before going show their colts. That way, you can do your herd work and set up on the cow with lots of slack in the reins, but the horse is right there in your hand.

Sorry if I hijacked, but I thought this was kind of a training thread so ya'll might be interested in my ramblings.