Yesterday I was watching a guy taking riding lessons. The guy was rather heavy and continually leaned way back as the horse moved around the round pen.

When the guy tried to turn the horse, he repeatedly kicked the horse high up on the horse's shoulder.

When the horse would balk (often because the guy was leaning back on both reins), the guy would enthusiastically kick both shoulders of the horse way up near the horses neck in order to get him to move again.

The instructor, a very knowledgeable horse guy, kept shouting "Good job!" even though the horse was not responding very well.

I have spent a lot of time riding that same horse, and he always turned well for me, just by shifting my seat and use of a little leg pressure.

By putting just a little pressure near the girth in the direction I wanted him to turn and a little pressure further back on the other side, the horse would make beautiful pivoting turns without any fanfare.

To get him to move, a simple push forward from my seat and a cluck or "walk on" generally did the trick without resorting to kicking the horse.

I didn't say anything because it wasn't my show, but it made me realize, just how adaptable horses can be as they have to put up with the various "cues" different people use.

I was surprised that the instructor didn't give any advice, but I guess the instructor wanted to make sure his $60.00 an hour fees kept coming in.

JMO.

BH63

they figure out what you want pretty quick.
I steer mine by pushing with my knee slightly.

they come up with sneaky little tricks of their own from time to time to keep you on your toes too.

You must hang out in some strange places..

I que my horse with leg and spur a rein at the same time, There is a time proven method of this, books and tapes, TV shows and all manor of training aids available..all good stuff, both American and Australian trainers have weekly shows on horse training, and they are as good as trainers come..One can actually get an education on these shows..I like Cris Cox myself, he is the real deal..One never gets too old to learn about horses or their behavior..

What you saw was an abomination of horse education by a couple of damn fools..

I'm a little confused by your explanation of what the heavy set man was doing. You can kick or spur a horse in the shoulder/neck without too much effort one leg at a time. If you can get both legs up into the shoulders you need to be a Saddle Bronc rider. Most western saddles are not designed to make spurring in both shoulders easy or even possible. it's even tougher if you have a belly hanging out front. You are correct that anytime you cue for a forward movement with your feet and pull backward on the reins is setting you and the horse up for lots of frustration.
Like Mr Atkinson i use a combination of reins ,feet and lower leg pressure for a turn. I've never had or rode a horse that would turn from knee pressure. I know western writers love to explain how he kneed his horse to the right as he drew both guns. I've squeezed or pushed with my knees till I turned blue but never gotten a horse to do much but ignore me. I'm sure what people mean is the use their lower leg and heel/spur pressure to help the turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You must hang out in some strange places..

I que my horse with leg and spur a rein at the same time, There is a time give method of this, books and tapes, TV shows and all manor of training aids available..all good stuff, both American and Australian trainers have weekly shows on horse training, and they are as good as trainers come..One can actually get an education on these shows..I like Cris Cox myself, he is the real deal..One never gets too old to learn about horses or their behavior..

What you saw was an abomination of horse education by a couple of damn fools..

I have one of Chris Cox's book as well (Ride the Journey, I think).

The rider (if you can call him that) was leaning back with both legs jutting forward. He was out-of-balance was basically leaning away from the horse's momentum the entire time he was on the horse.

Whenever the horse stopped (confused by all the mixed signals), the rider would kick with both heels into the forward part of the horse's shoulder.

All I could do to keep my mouth shut (not my horse).

The horse had on a running martingale, which probably kept the horse from rearing.


This morning I watched a girl riding the same horse who knew what she was doing.

She had excellent balance and used her heels in the center of the horses ribcage, very sparingly and very lightly.

This was the first time she had ever rode this horse, and if I hadn't been busy with another horse prior to her riding, I could have let her know that with that horse all it takes is a little leg pressure, no kicking needed at all.

BH64

Chris Cox and Clinton Anderson both have good tips on darn near every show.

sounds like the "rider" first needs to find his balance

i've been riding for a few years now but just got back into taking lessons this year. every now and then my guy just has me drop the reins & stirrups to check my balance instructor can move the horse anywhere in the arena from the ground so makes for a good check-up for me if i'm holding proper form or reverting back to putting too much pressure in my stirrups vs using my thighs

^
Yep, I think that is the root of the problem.

Unfortunately, this guy has been taking two lessons a week for over a year.

I was watching him this morning and he was still struggling with putting on a sidepull and trying to lounge the horse.

Methinks some people are just not cut out to be a horseman/woman.

BH63

Ive never given much thought to how I ride, I just ride unless Im roping or riding bucking horses that I don't do anymore I had better add..

I guess I put just a tad of pressure in the stirrups and sit in the middle of him and mostly depend on balance that's turned into muscle memory over the years..

When roping or competing I put more pressure on the stirrups and sit forward and in a 14 inch saddle that keeps me up over my horse, I come out of the box fast swinging my rope over my left side, when the header turns the steer, I jump in there, count one hop,two hops and stop my horse simplsy by sitting down in the saddle and deliver my rope to the heels at the same time hopefully. I may use my legs a little at this time, not sure, but everything comes tight and hopefully we get a flag indicating a fast time and win some money..If my horse is not in the right position on that turn for me to rope, I will use my spur only to side pass him quickly to the right spot, but his muscle memory doesn't normally allow him to ever be in the wrong spot no matter what the steer does...About the best I can explain moving a horse to one side or another, and that's all a spur is used for between me and my horse. Leg pressure is a part of spur pressure they go together, they have to..That should clarify your question..

Anybody can be a horse trainer.

Grizz

A well trained horse will work off leg pressure from your calf..spurs only when necessary if at all...some horse require more motivation than others. But it takes the correct muscle tone on the part of the rider and assumes your legs are long enough and/or your horse isn't too wide. Your calves need to touch the horse on the downside of his ribs!

The whole point of (most) riding is to stay vertical!

^
At my age sometimes I struggle to stay vertical when I'm just walking! LOL.

BH63

Yep, me too when walking...On a horse I keep a leg on both sides and my mind in the middle..Queing a horse at a walk and a lope is one thing, queing him at a dead run and concentrating on a steer your about to rope is a whole nuther ball game...Hopefully you have done all that to the point that your horse really doesn't need anybody telling him his job, and a tune up from time to time. If he is out of position on the corner when I go in to heel a touch with the spur will tell him all he needs to know, If he does not rate off just before I rope, a turn of my hands on the reins fixes that, The horse Im roping off of now doesn't make mistakes, if he did all Id have to do is say, Hey in a lound tone, he would adjust, He is 17 or 18, knows his job.

After years of riding cutters, I don't even have to think about using my legs, spurs, etc.

One could steer a good work horse or team with words.

^
That is the true "magic" of a working horse. One who knows what to do and can almost read your mind when it is in the zone.

BH63

I rode a gaucho pony bareback in Argentina a couple of months back. Hadnt been on a horse in probably 40 years .
Fortunately the horse was like me - fat and slow - but he responded to the knee and leg controls as we thundered after a mob of cattle that didnt want to co operate.
Surprisingly I wasnt crippled next day either - perhaps there is a God after all.

A horse does not think like a human, he does not learn like a human, he learns by one thing and one thing alone, and that's repetition taught to the right side of his brain and then taught to the left side of his brain.When you teach to the right side of his brain your training the left side and visa versa..It takes a man many many years to become a real world horse trainer, and its a life time study..Lots of good horsemen are not trainers. These horsemen are smart enough to know they are not skilled enough to be trainer, and because of that the the best of horsemen in their separated diciplines..In many well most instances in competition, the trainer trains and the owner rides ropes or whatever, both are professionals and do there job..both can do each others job to one degree or another as a rule..

Luky he didn't get launched thats how saddle bronc riders go for a high score!
Your spine should be 90 degrees to the horses back.
slight pressure on the face opposite leg pressure from the heel calf area of the rider lean towards direction of turn.....
I break colts with hay string around there neck or a small piece of parachute cord with knots that I sea saw toward the direction and then use lots of leg pressure.

Some people need more training than the horse.
Did some Buckrooing in South East Oregon on broncs
but they all hade the basic resistance points...
Its a ballancing act between man and horse....
sitting back is hard on their kidneys.

There are many ways to train a horse, Ive seen great horses that were trained pretty damn rough, and Ive seen great horse trained easy, Ive seen ranch horses trained by old cowboys who just put lot of wet saddle blankets up each evening, I'm pretty sure the horse is the most forgiving animal on earth, so many turn out well in spite of mankind..Its easy to frusterate a horse when he has no idea what you want..keep in mind he learns from repetition and that is time consuming as a rule, if its not you have a dandy.

Personally everytime I got mad at a horse it set me back to where I started, so I learned patience and kindness but with a firm hand works and knowledge of the horses mind works best. Those good rough broke horses allways had a tendency to come untrained at times...

Today my horses turn out so damn good I can hardly stand it, and if you want to be a good roper then figure the horse under you with your leg on each side and your brain in the middle is the way to go.

I use my whole leg and spur pressure to move a horse in any direction I guess, and if I want him to run his heart out I spank him lightly, a spur tends to make them ringtailed IMO, and makes them tend not to run as hard as they can..Its use is to move them into position.

Interesting subject..

I agree completely about the spurs Ray. I’ll spur a horse plenty of need be but really use them to steer. If I’m bailing to one outside and want my horse to really open up but run right, I’d rather swat him with my rope than hack on him with spurs.

Agreed, I break a horse with spurs, I ride all my horses with spurs, I know when to use them, how to use them, and when not to use them without even thinking about it...I just put down an old horse that I roped off of, my kids roped off of and my grandkids roped off of..I could jerk the bridle off him and rope steers all day long, he had no faults and was 22 years old..a heart braker..My two younger horses are 17 and 18 worth a bundle but not for sale, and my 4 year old granddaughter asked for TJ and I gave him to her, she allowed I could borrow him anytime to rope or work cattle on..I said can I still hunt off him, she said Nope, you get a mule for that..oh well!!

My grand daughter broke and trained the black horse that Wesly Thrope won a lot of money on at San Antonio and San Angelo in the team roping this week. Thrope was the heeler...That good horse would bring $100,000 today I suspect..Proud of that girl, she did good. She trains barrel horses, calf roping horse, team roping horses and about anything one wants..

My oldest daughter (15YO) is a natural horseman (Horsewoman). She's out working with her horses every waking moment when she's not at school.

She broke and trained a little palomino, beginning when he was 2yo, he's 4 now.

I had to laugh when she was at a playday barrel racing event when the girls were betting and challenging each other. My daughter took the challenge to run the barrels with no reigns or bit. She ended up with the fastest time and won! That horse is so in tune with her sounds and subtle movements in the saddle.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
One could steer a good work horse or team with words.

I watched my Amish farrier control a team of horses with verbal commands from the other side of a fence. He didn't even have head gear on them.