Charlie Russel and Remington painted horses that were different looking than our modern Quarter Horsess. They were small "goose rumped" horses.

I saw horses in South Africa that looked similar. They are called the Basuto Poney and seem to originate with the Basuto tribe in the Kingdom of Lasutho.

A few years ago, I wounded a Black Wildebeest on a huge hunting farm (150 square miles ) near Graaff Reinet in South Africa. My bullet cut the hide on the bottom of his chest and went through one leg. It's a bad memory.

It took us three days to get him and I lost a few pounds along the way. We finally spotted him sneaking through the thorn bush behind a small herd. I finished him with a running neck shot at about 60 yds.

For the three days, two Black Trackers were out on horseback looking for him. One rode a big Thoroughbred and the other was on a little Basuto Poney. At the end of each day both horses were dotted on their chest with blood spots from the thorn bushes. The Thoroughbred was soaking with sweat, and was slobbering and snorting like he had been in a Boar War battle. The little Basuto Pony was dry and calm like he had just been out for a happy stroll. Both horses had done the same amount of work. I found it interesting. Brian

Fascinating. Thanks for posting.

Thanks for sharing this.
Interestingly, I am both from Graaff Reinet and own a Basotho pony!
Not my ranch, however. They are lovely horses and to see the tough life they live in Lesotho itself is an eye-opener.

The horses painted by Russel were basically the American Mustang, feral horses for the most part, and like the Basuto or any wild raised horse they had endurance and hard feet, they learned early on to conserve energy...The throughbred you mentioned is a hot blooded horse by design, and that's his nature and he was also probably the product of mishandling, poor training, and underfed, as most African tribal horses are.

Ray, That makes sense. Thanks, Brian

Hello Karoo, I have only seen the one Basutho Poney up close. It really made an impression on me.

My wife and I were in Lesotho once for a day as part of a tour up the Sani Pass in the Drakensberg Mts.. (about 10,000 ft.) We went in the east side of The Kinkdom for a few miles. Tough country! It reminded me a bit of the Canadian Barren Lands part of the arctic. I would not like to be a horse in that country. Those sheppards have been herding those goats through that harsh country that way, for 2000 years, I'm told.

How long have you lived in Graaff Reinet? I notice you used the term "Ranch". Are you an American?

We have stayed in Graaff Reinet for a week in two different years, using it as a base for exploring around the country. We love the town and the region. The Karoo is amazing country. And the history is thrilling! We have spent almost 6 months there in all. It is a "must see" part of South Africa and a traveller should also spend a couple of days in Addo Elephant Park and Mountain Zebra Park. Craddock is a place that will take you back in time if you have a weakness for it, like I do.

( If any of the readers here want to read a great and true adventure story about horses and South Africa, read Commando by Dennys Reitz. It's about a young guy who joins the Boar army in the Second Boar War. They faught on horseback a lot. It will blow you away!

Also, I should mention that the movie Red Dust starring Hilary Swank was filmed in Graaff Reinet. It's about the Truth and Reconcilliation Trials. Sorry, no horses in it.)

Thanks for posting here, Karoo. Please tell us of your favorite places in you region. We'll highjack this thread! Danki, Brian

PS, Hello Again Karoo, Would you be able to post a photo of your Basutho Pony? I think people would be interested. I will find a picture of the Basutho pony that I saw and try to post it. He has an interesting military stye saddle on him. ( Can anyone tell me how to post a photo here? Thanks.)
Brian

Hi Brian. I will have to dig up a photo of the horse. Many get passed as Basotho ponies but there is little standard to them. Also, when these ponies receive better nutrition they grow better and almost out of the pony category.
Nooitgedacht ponies are actually just improved Basothos and often top 15 hh.
My family has lived on the ranch since the 1830's and we have been hunting and riding since. My outfit, founded by my father in the 1960's is Graaff Reinet Safaris.
I love the whole area. I call it a ranch because most in the US associate a farm with intensive, smaller paddocks. The ranch is 40 000 unfenced acres.
My personal riding horse is a small Arab mare but I do try and ride the other working horses too.

Thanks for the info. That very interesting for me.) I was once a "working cowboy".

You are a real pioneering family. 1830! Thats 70 years befor the Boar wars. I think it is before diamonds were descovered in Kimberly and Gold in Johannesberg. Yikes! I just looked up some dates. You family were Voortrekkers! Yes? (I am in the presence of greatness!)

I will look up your hunting farm on the net.
Meanwhile, can you recommend a good book on the history of these horses in South Africa. Danki.

Also, I wanted to tease you about the "Ranch" thing. I have watched, over the last decade, the subtile Americanization of some of South Africa's hunting terms.

Karoo, Hello again. When I "google" Graaff-Reinet Safaris I just get the generic tourist option service site. Can you give me your website address? Danki, Brian

PS 40,000 unfenced acres. that is awesome. B

I "Googled" Basotho Pony. Lots of fastinating info for horse people. Check out the pictures of the local folks in their traditional gear riding the high Lesotho country on their Basotho ponies. Brian

Wonderful thread!
Karoo, do you ever post on Whitesmoke.co.za?
I am going to pop over there and ask about these fascinating horses.
Are your people Boers?

Hi Bill. Actually British 1820 Settler stock. We have cut down the hunting to a few select safaris a year and so keep a quiet profile.
I will PM you.

Here is a link for some history of the Basotho pony and it's introduction to South Africa.


http://malealea.com/index.php/history/basotho-pony

Interesting stuff, the history of the horse is pretty much world wide in that they got loose at some point and became wild feral horses, mostly some inbreeding, then along came man and inserted better blood and a breed developed in some cases but became more feral in other cases..Your history is pretty much the same as ours..

The American Mustang, albeit, is all but non existant in that DNA is so small that its basically worthless IMO, but is recognized by BLm and the USFS for what that's worth, but the cry of its preservation is loud and long in the Pacific NW states by those who hate the word feral, and those who consider the mustang the scourge of the earth, somewhere in between lies the answer and that is control and maintence which is lacking for sure by the Politicall correct gov. agencys..but many years ago the old ranch families turned loose their ranch horses as they aged and these horses bred the Spanish Barb right out of the horse that the Spaniards turned loose in the Americas, and the breed suffered...Mention this in some circles and Liberals or mostly liberals come flying out of their NY and LA Ivory Towers and quote all manner of ridiculas none facts, and threaten mayhem on those who would mention such heresy.

But all was not lost, and eventually through selective breeding and the help of our mother countries, the US prospered and developed the best horses ever to roam this earth, mostly form the Morgan and the Thourghbred and to my mind that is the American Quarter Horse, the horse by which all other breeds are compared to.

BTW, The Price brothers, well know PH's in RSA have some huge land holdings and they have or did have about 600 mares last I heard, Their father had a breeding program of sorts and imported some super nice English throughbreds some many years ago, it was a grand project but the demand for horses in Africa isn't all that great, and finding a real horse trainer is next to impossible, and they have had to sell a lot of horses to European countries for meat.

I visited several ranches in the Kimberly area of RSA, even did a couple of 3 day training schools for them some 30 or more years ago..They were Quarter horse breeders, but the horses were not what I would call top line, but they were working on that..The lack of trainers in RSA is obvious and it would be a good place for some industrious and skilled American cowboys, especially those that love to hunt, to get into the horse training business, they would prosper well, raising and training their horses and selling them, and riding outside horses, and putting on schools. If I were a young man I would do just that. What an opertunity to live in such a wonderful and beautiful country, and do what you love best.

If I were an African young man, with an interest in horses, I would come to the US or Australia and train under some of the better trainers, then return to Africa and do my thing.

quote:

They were small "goose rumped" horses.

there's a reason they called them Cow Ponies Cutting horses are still on the small side, tough for a big horse to have real agility.

Grizz

Atkinson. Brilliant! ( As they say in South Africa.)

Wouldn't be cool if some young enterprising folks read your post and went and did it? I would love to see that one develop. We ran a dealership in another industry for two years in JB. I think that the best way for your idea to work is exactly the way you suggest: South Africans should get trained in North America or Austrailia then take their knowledge of horsemanship and a business model back to RSA. If some Blacks were involved they might get some financing from the South African Government to get it done. I hope someone runs with the idea. Brian

"Justin Morgan had a horse...".

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Atkinson. Brilliant! ( As they say in South Africa.)

Wouldn't be cool if some young enterprising folks read your post and went and did it? I would love to see that one develop. We ran a dealership in another industry for two years in JB. I think that the best way for your idea to work is exactly the way you suggest: South Africans should get trained in North America or Austrailia then take their knowledge of horsemanship and a business model back to RSA. If some Blacks were involved they might get some financing from the South African Government to get it done. I hope someone runs with the idea. Brian

BLACKS? Perhap's Afrikaner's would be a much better option and more suitable!!!!!

Makes me wonder if a individual with European hertige has ever been to South Africa?

Those damn blacks slaughtered and ate most of my Aunt and Uncle premium retired race horses as well as squatting the farm. I would love to shoot those if I could get away it but it ain't worth it. All in the past.
They, Aunt and Uncle moved to Canada to start life all over again as Vet's and they were very sad to leave but then again there lifestyle are much better currently. Now they are getting into breeding horses for barrel racing!!!!!!

Interesting read on Oregon UNIQUE mustangs and there ain't no Texas influence whatsoever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiger_Mustang

Steen's Mountain mustangs?

Norseman, Good point. In the last couple of years the "Blacks" in South Africa have asked to be referred to by another name. At the moment I forget the term but it's something like Indiginous or First Nations. Similar to Canada. Up to that point I was taught the that the correct term was Black South African or "Black".

"Afrikaner", I believe, refers to the Dutch South African; the decendants of the Voortreckers.

I have been busted before for using the term "Black". As I say, up until recently it has been the politically correct term in South Africa but that might be changing now.

Colonial history doesn't seem so far in the past in South Africa, does it. In South Africa there are still some old school derogatory place names on the map. Kaffer Drift on the Fish River is one. ( "Drift" means river crossing.) Brian

Brian,

you are confused. I know the differences between blacks and a Afrikaner from a mile away. I could care less about derogatory names.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Steen's Mountain mustangs?

Yes indeed, the pure strain.

Have you taken your Jaguar over there? You ought to take it to the salt flats of the Alvord Desert to test it's top speed, flat as a pancake and smooth.

The Africaner today is either of Dutch or German descent, guess sit got bastardized somewhere along the line, as originally they were Dutch, but they even have their own language and pretty much are the largest white population in So. African whites today.

Having witnessed the black African break and train horses, I wouldn't relish the job of trying to teach them the skill...Basically if they want a horse to go left they club him on the right and visa versa, as to a stop well they pretty much have to run him into a solid mass of some sort..

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Steen's Mountain mustangs?

Yes indeed, the pure strain.

Have you taken your Jaguar over there? You ought to take it to the salt flats of the Alvord Desert to test it's top speed, flat as a pancake and smooth.

After 200-300 yrs of inter breeding there is NO "PURE STRAIN"-there may well be genetic markers but they are totally inter-bred with other lines.

quote:

Having witnessed the black African break and train horses, I wouldn't relish the job of trying to teach them the skill...Basically if they want a horse to go left they club him on the right and visa versa, as to a stop well they pretty much have to run him into a solid mass of some sort

Sadly, that is largely true. However, I was visiting my brother-in-law's ranch deep in Xhosa territory recently and was pleasantly surprised to see a largely illiterate farm hand training a horse the Monty Roberts way.
Not all agree with Monty Roberts, but it sure is an improvement on the above.
This horseman was actually taught by a young man who had travelled to the US to learn more about horse training, though not many have done so.
Incidentally, the Afrikaners in SA have a huge influence of French Huguenot blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot plus influence of non-white Malay slaves and locals.

Norseman, I didn't read you right, my bad. I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:



After 200-300 yrs of inter breeding there is NO "PURE STRAIN"-there may well be genetic markers but they are totally inter-bred with other lines.

Not according to University of Kentucky DNA testing program.

They are pure as it can be whether in-bred or not. The fact they are or might be in-bred makes them even more pure. How do you think all of these different dog breeds and horse breeds exist today?

What lines are you talking about?

By the way, professionals say that this Kiger strain might have been here in Oregon closer to 500 years not 200 to 300 years. That flat out amazes me that they survive this long and that the Spaniards where here in Southeast Oregon out in the middle of freakin nowhere and it is in the middle freakin nowhere even today!!!!!!

Charlie Russel and Remington painted horses that were different looking than our modern Quarter Horsess. They were small "goose rumped" horses.

Actually, Remington artwork revolved around the Cayuse breed from the Northwest.

Cayuse breed from the Northwest whatever that is? but it has to be the mustang, generated, like all horses in the beginning of the NA continent from the horses that the Spanish brought to our shores, that later became Indian ponies..The DNA today according to BLM is very low which indicates inbreeding of Irish and English througbreds and Morgans that Pacific N.W. ranchers instilled by turning loose their old studs over many years and thus the big headed, U necked, mustang of today managed by our government and like about everything else they do, its totally screwed up...At least that's one theory and sounds good to me.

Charlie Russels horses were mostly a cross between mustangs and throughbreds and you can see that by looking at them, and that tells me the early settlers imported thorughbreds, the others were Spanish barb decendents and they called the mustangs..As to goose hipped, that's sometimes from a lack of nutrition than a breed trait IMO..Have you not noticed that if you worm a horse and feed him good the goose hips disappear in most cases, even on the mustang. I have seen this many many times. Also many of C. Rusels horses showed to be large and raw boned as did the horses of the Texas Rangers that could run down a band of Mexicans or Indians, the Ranger horses were hand picked for size and endurance..I have an office full of Ranger horses on pictures dated back to the late 1800s, My granddad was a Ranger and a horseman, and I have several original photograpsh.

Atkinson,

you're never too old to learn something new and here is the "true" description of Cayuse and there history.


http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/br...useindian/index.html



http://www.theequinest.com/breeds/cayuse-pony/

Norseman,
I have read of this horse on occasion and have read the information you listed several times over the years..

For one thing don't believe all you read, but keep it in mind...When a expert states "it is generally accepted" I always question who generally is, especially when the information you refer to is not generally accepted by many, especially geographically, As the Perchon and Spanish Barb horses at the time are claimed by some to be worlds apart. What all these folks aree saying is they are not really sure, and surly some will say anything to get recognition..Your right however none of "US" get to old to learn..As for me, until otherwise proven, I think I'll go with the Cayuse pony became such by the old timers who called all horses Cayuse, and the Indian pony was mostlikly the product of the Perchon looking throughbreds of the day used by the US Calvery and stolen by Indians or who really knows what a feral horse looks like are where he decends form.

When Pendleton Round Up first started up in the early 1900's,
most of the horse's in the area were of Cayuse breed, hell even a east coaster artist from New York named Fredrick Remington knew what a Cayuse is, so I don't buy into old timer stories. Fredrick Remington died in 1909.

Everybody that are into ranching or rodeo in the area know what a Cayuse breed of horse is even today.

For last 20 or 30 years, there has been bickering between breeder of Appaloosa, Pinto and Cayuse as far as originality.

Cayuse are common among the indian on and off the Umatilla reservation.
I wouldn't be surprised that there some Cayuse horses on the other side of the Snake River on Nez Perce reservation in your adopted state of Idaho.

How else did they get bucking stock!

Welcome to the Northwest Ray.

quote:

The DNA today according to BLM is very low which indicates inbreeding of Irish and English througbreds and Morgans that Pacific N.W. ranchers instilled

What?

I copied this from Wikipedia.
Characteristics[edit]
The Basuto is considered a small horse, since it possesses horse-like characteristics, such as an exceptionally long stride. Basutos have rather heavy heads, long necks and long, straight backs, straight shoulders, and muscular, sloping croups. They have very tough legs and sound, very hard hooves. They can be up to 14.2 hands high (56.8 inches or ~142 cm), but rarely taller. Basutos can be chestnut, brown, bay, gray or black, and have white markings. They are usually sure-footed, fast, fearless and are known for their stamina.[1]

History[edit]
The first horses arrived in South Africa in 1653, when four horses were introduced to the Cape area by the Dutch East India Trading Company. The exact breed of these horses is unknown, but they may have been Arabian, Persian or similar to the Java Pony. They were upgraded later with Arabian and Persian blood.[2]

These original imported horses became the founders of the Cape Horse, which became extremely popular and especially gained an admirable reputation during the Boer Wars. The Cape Horse and the Basuto probably were originally the same horse; with continual infusions of Thoroughbred and Arabian blood the Cape Horse became a larger, better-quality animal, and the Basuto remained smaller and stockier.

Lesotho (formerly known as Basutoland) acquired Cape Horses as spoils of war between the Zulus and the settlers. As a result of harsh conditions and interbreeding with local ponies, the Cape Horse lost much of its height and nobility, and the Basuto pony largely replaced it.

Due to the rocky and hilly terrain the Basuto ponies were continually ridden over (often at great speeds), they developed into tough, sure-footed animals with great stamina and courage.[2] These qualities, however, were nearly the undoing of the breed. The Basuto became so popular that thousands were exported, and many of the best horses were killed in action during the Boer War at the end of the 19th century. There is now a concerted effort to re-establish the Basuto breed.

Uses[edit]
Basutos are used for racing, hacking, trekking or polo.

I finally got around to taking a photo of my pony. Not sure if she is a true Basuto, but so it was claimed.
I actually have another little mare, about 13 hh, that is almost more typical, being small and tough. The one in the photo is a gentle horse that stays fat on nothing with tough little black hooves ideal for the mountains on the ranch.

How else did they get bucking stock!

http://chandler01.wix.com/tookebuckinghorses#!/cx6i

Karoo, New spin on this thread. Please Help:


(Nice little pony with good black feet. Thanks for posting.)


Does any one know this place? It is a real interesting area. My wife and I are planning to go back.

When I first posted this story, I could not remember exactly where it took place. I just remembered it was about 30-40 miles SW of Graaff Reinet. ( I am getting old. I can hide my own easter eggs.)

Recently I pieced together the memory of the New spin on this thread. Please Help:
. It is a real interesting area. Maybe "Karoo" or others know about it. I am interested in the history. Please tell me what you know.

It took place in the valley (south) from an old abandoned village called Petersburg. The little village was reportedly built as a company town for the construction of a road going north through the mountain. The project was abandoned after the village was built.

When my wife and I were there, the area, was under European ownership I was told. Swiss, I think.
Today, if you google "Samara's Karoo Lodge" you will see that the area is controlled by an upscale game reserve operation. It looks pretty nice.


If you zoom in on Google Earth you can trace the Petersburg Road NW to the old village. (Not very clear.) You will see that the country is pretty interesting.

If any one has been there or knows abut about the history, please let me know.
"Karoo" I'll bet that you know about it. Thanks, Brian

Hi Brian
There are a number of upscale game ranches in the district. Samara http://www.samara.co.za and Asante Sana ranch is higher up the hill where Petersburg village once stood.
Lovely area.