Question guys...

When looking at a used custom rifle, how do you determine its worth? Some things are obvious such as quality of wood, action etc, quality of the work and possibly the name of the builder adds a bit. What makes a $4,000 rifle command twice that of a $2,000 rifle?

Maybe the less initiated on these matters are better off with the semi-customs out there from known companies (e.g. Dakota).

I know this is difficult to answer, but I would appreciate your comments. I've already learned some lessons in another gun arena, I'd rather not have my 'custom gun' education be too costly!

Maybe all of this is ultimitly up to what someone is willing to pay.

I'd appreciate your comments.

FFg

What you are paying for, in a lot of cases, is time spent on the project. Example! Would you be happy with an attractive and effective scope mount you can buy for $150 and will last you a life time or would you prefer a scope mount made specifically for your rifle, by the gunsmith, that takes him 30 hours to machine? Are you happy with a fiberglass stock that can be fitted to perfection and will maintain it's zero forever and only cost $600 or do you want to buy a blank for $1000 and spend another $1000 to have the 'smith shape it, inlet it and then checker it (oops make that $2000 as I like good checkering)...do you want to spend $1000 for custom bottom metal so you can put 1 extra cartridge in the magazine?

Do you begin to see where the money goes?

After all, what YOU consider value for money, is going to determine what the correct price will be! Like women, the looks is what you see first, but they are are all basicly the same as far s design goes, some work better than others, and what you see on the outside may not tell you which one it is. Ultimetly you must decide for yourself! Also like women, custom rifles are not inexpencive aquisitions, so do require some intence inspection, before takeing them home with you.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

If you are not real particular about what you want in a custom rifle, which most people are and is why they build them in the first place, then you can usually buy a used custom rifle for much less than the cost of having one built. What distinguishes one from another (and the cost or value) is in the detail, the quality of the worksmanship and the components and to some extent the renown of the maker.

The difference between for instance a $6500 dollar custom Mauser bolt action and a $30,000 custom Mauser bolt action is plain and simple the MAKER'S NAME! I wish I still owned by Francotte 505 Gibbs. With that name on the barrel that rifle would today be worth $20,000. In truth it was not as accurate as my 500 AHR, and it functioned no better than the AHR either. The AHR was a measely $4000 after all was said and done. For the record the Francotte grouped right around 3" at 100 yards. The AHR will print right at 1". The wood is of comparable quality (I had the AHR restocked). The checkering was fancier on the Francotte (no functionality improvement only astetic). The fit between metal and wood is comparable. The sights were better regulated on the Francotte (saved me about $50 and a couple hours of work is that worth $16,000?).

So you judge. Is a less accurate, but better up front sight regulated rifle with prettier checkering (which I thought was too fine to provide a good grip I did not measure it but it had to be 26 or 28 lines per inch!) worth an additional $16,000?

Regarding doubles the same goes, but the price jumps to about $20,000. Anything above that and you are just paying for a name. Consider that a brand new Holland & Holland 577 NE Royale would set you back around $100,000. You can purchase a used one in mint condition for $35,000 - $40,000. A lesser British name and the price of the used gun drops to $20,000. There are few Continental makers, which can command these prices (Francotte, Beretta, Franz Sodia all come to mind). Many of the Continental guns are the equal functionality wise of the the British guns. The British guns however have the mystique and therefore can command those prices.

Don't fall for the BS that the $20,000+ guns are soooo much better. This is just the talk of someone with more money than brains!

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-29-2002).]

They key to getting a good custom or semi-custom, either new or used, is to educate yourself on how they are built! Get a brownells catalog, and go to the middle to see the average shop rates on various functions a gunsmith does. Then learn how to examine a rifle to see the difference between a rifle that has simply had a new barrel fit, vs one that has been stoned and polished so that it functions smoothly.

Sadly I'd say the vast majority of gunsmiths do not deserve that title, as most are mechanics, ie the adjust nuts and bolts, but don't have the understanding of the action truly functions, and the effects of modify varying facets of the action.

Anyhow, the education is key, if you know what to look for, then you'll know if its a good buy. If you don't, then your odds of getting taken are pretty high.

Todd makes a good point about "what's in a name". I have several custom rifles built by local, part-time gunsmiths that compare quality-wise in every respect to the most expensive big-name rifles made except they were a fraction of the cost. The quality and range of custom gunmaking has never been better than the present, in my opinion. For awhile, fine gunmaking was becoming a lost art, but work now being done by members of the Custom Gun Guild and many of the European and British gunmakers is astonishing. And there are now many more relatively unknown smiths capable of top-notch work too.

What's in a name?

Quality assurance.

There are a lot of screwed up custom gun jobs done by basement gun smiths, although some are quite nice too.

500grains,

So which big name built your customs rifles? I had a Francotte and now have a Jeffery double in 475 No 2 (inherited from Dad). I have an AHR and one or two homemade customs also.

The Jefferys will print about 3.5" groups with a load that I know is safe. To me that is plenty accurate for that rifles purpose and intended quarry. I believe Ray chastised me a while back that I could improve this rifles accuracy with a little more load development. He is most likely correct, but I would hate to blow it up and the rifle has too much sentimental value to me for that. Besides I don't hunt with it anymore anyway. Function wise it is no better than my Davide Pedersoli Kodiak MkIV and not as accurate, although as previously stated that is open to debate.

My Father has a dear friend with a H&H 500 NE Royale that won't shoot better than 4" at 100 yards. That is as good as that rifle will shoot. The problem seems to be that while the left barrel prints nicely the right barrel hits high (relative to the left barrels POI) everytime! So to me this stinks of poor regulation period (this is not only my opinion by the way). I know of no better name in doubles than H&H (except maybe Purdey). So quality is not necessarily insured by a name!

Todd E

Add the word moderation to the Custom Rifle and like most things in this world it all begins to make since...

There is only so much one can do to a Custom Rifle as far as cost go...Buy a nice Custom at a reasonable price. I personally think that one can get about all the Custom Hunting rifle he needs for around $5000 or less..sans engraving, inlaid gold and diamonds and such clownish embezzlements When a gun becomes an artistic endeavor, then it falls in a different catagory.

I also believe some of the best buys in the world are used Custom Rifles that fit you and function properly. Normally you can buy a used Custom rifle in smaller calibers at 25 cents on the dollar.

Used big bores just keep going up in price.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have many used custom rifles. I buy them at gun shows and on the internet. I also have 3-4 built a year---not by Davis Miller or Steve Heilman, but by a cadre of fine artests I know and trust. When buying used custom jobs, I look at in pieces. I know that the action will cost xx, barrel and fitting xxx, wood xxxx, and the actual cost of stocking the gun with checkering. If the rifle is selling for much less than the parts would cost then I buy!!!!!!! This past month I bought a custom rifle off an auction for 1200.00 that you couldnt buy the metal parts for for that amount. There are some suprises out there ---not all are winners for you, but if you know what you like and can judge quality work, you can be happy. having a fancy makers name usually gets the asking price higher, however for me, the ultimate choice in what I pay, is mine!
lb404