Looking for suggestions on loading up some "moderate recoil practice ammo" for the .404 Jeff using the 400gn bullets.

The powders I have are: 4064; Varget, and Accurate 5744.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

I tested a few powders and Varget seemed to work the best - accuracy / consistency. My hunting load consisted of the following:

Norma Brass
Federal 215 match primers
76 grains of Varget

In my rifle, 24" barrel - twist 1:14, this load produced nominal velocity of 2400 fps. I started at 72 grains of Varget and in my rifle nominal 2200 fps.

Hope this helps...

Nick,
Part of practice with the 404 and any big bore is adjusting to the recoil by shooting hunting loads, in fact it is the most important..Just my 2 bits and not being critical.

Some quasi experts suggest one learns to adjust to recoil by loading down a big bore, were that fact one could just shoot a 30-06 and work up, but it just does not work...You want to shoot a 500 N.E. start with short sessions.

If the 404 bothers you then I would suggest a muzzle brake to sight in, shoot groups, develop loads etc etc, and have a a screw on thread protector. Take off the brake at the end of each bench session, screw on the thread protector and fire 5 to 10 rounds off hand at the end of each of those practice session..taking full recoil standing is much easier on the body and nervous system, and in time you will become immune to the 404 recoil. It doesn't take long with a 404 like it would with say a 458 Lott..
Good luck its been my favorite caliber for many years..

While I do not disagree with what Ray has said, we should keep in mind that an important part of successfully shooting and killing animals is bullet placement and this is dependent on correct mounting, holding, sighting and trigger let off. Most of us who have shot a few animals also know that your perception of recoil is vastly diminished when shooting animals rather than targets therefore is something that is not in the foremost of our minds when in the field.

Even for seasoned shooters, heavy or sharp recoil when shooting off the bench or when standing shooting targets can get tiresome and unpleasant to the point of sometimes being painful. This is of no value when wanting to practice loading and handling your rifle and the other aspects for accurate bullet placement I have mentioned earlier.

I think my decades of shooting qualify me as a seasoned shooter but I get no joy from being booted around when shooting targets whether from a big bore or a high intensity magnum. Hence I have gone down the road of cast bullets from early days.

I have successfully hunted buffalo and a few other lesser animals with my 404 and full steam jacketed loads but I don't need to experience that level of recoil when enjoying a day at the range. I don't feel my level of competency in the field has suffered by being a wimpy kid on the range . Cast bullets allow a good range of loads using either the original bullet weight for the 404 or lighter bullets. You can load up and down to suit the level of recoil you are happy with and usually get a load or loads that match the POI of full steam jacketed loads. Using small amounts of pistol or shotgun powder with cast bullets in the 404 provides very safe loads requiring no fillers and with no concerns of delayed ignition or detonation. Nice pleasant shooting loads with which you can practice handling and shooting your rifle all day.

Not sure if this is best practice, but I use a pad on my shoulder to get more rounds fired and build comfort with the bigger bores.

Very true Eagle, but its been my experience that if one developes a flinch on the bench, then he will flinch on game, just doesn't realize it..As to reduced recoil, the same could be accomplished by practicing with a 7x57, or 30-06 for instance...I have been with hunters who said the shoot was perfect, when in fact It was a flank shot or worse..that was a flinch in my mind, especially at very short range, and yes I put them on a taget when we got to camp or the house..Invaribly iit was a flinch they didn't believe..If not a flinch it was a bad trigger..

That said, Im sure it can work both ways, just depends on the individual how he corrects or addresses the problem..One thing for sure it any approach works then Im all for it..

I agree 10 G, whatever works, I like a QD muzzle brake best, a padded shoulder helps some, and the way one holds a rifle is a big plus when done properly, a loose gun is a loose cannon

I don't like weighted butt stocks they ruin the balance of any gun for me..and the addition of another weight in the forearm makes the gun too heavy IMO..

Bottom line IMO is lots of full power loads at the range and on Jack Rabbits etc..The bench is a flinches best friend, but its a necessary evil I fear...

Where can one buy 400 grain lead .422/.423 bullets with gas checks?

I'll make some if I have to, but would rather shoot than make bullets.

Alec,
I have some 350gr. lead gas check bullets I use for practice. I can send you some if you would like. I use H4895 for practice, Trail Boss also works well. I have not seen any reduced load data for the powders you listed. Let me know about the bullets.

John

Gundog 64

That's a very nice offer! I am moving to SE Arizona (closing on a house there within a month. Once I get relocated perhaps I can take you up on your offer. If that works for you.

Did you make these bullets? If so, where did you get the molds? I have looked on the 'net and have not found a source.

Thanks,

AT

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input and helpful comments.

In doing further research, I actually did find some downloaded 'practice load' data for the .404J using 5744 powder that more or less tracks the data for downloading the 416.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_400_loads.htm

Alec Torres asked about gas-checked 400gn/.423 cast bullets. The only source I've found so far is Rimrock Bullets:

https://rimrockbullets.com/xca...lastic-ammo-box.html

Another company makes .423 g/c hardcasts, but those are 380gns.

https://www.beartoothbullets.c....htm?category=34&id=

Nick

Thanks for posting those links. Very helpful.

The recommended method of arriving at a reduced load with AA5744 is to fill the case with powder up to the base of the bullet. Weigh the powder. Multiply the weight of powder by .4. That is your reduced load. I find it works like a charm.

I used to hunt with a cartridge which propelled a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps. from a rifle which weighed 8.75 pounds. The rifle generated around 100 ft/lbs of free recoil.

When shooting from the bench, I used a "lead sled" or its equivalent. When practicing, I used reduced loads. Shooting at game with full loads, I never noticed the recoil.

I was a competitive shooter who fired as many shots in a year as the average hunter would fire in a lifetime. I was no stranger to recoil, but I saw no reason to punish myself with full loads, when I knew that the excitement of the hunt would negate any negative reaction to the recoil of a full load.

I never missed a shot with my heavy rifle. Everything I shot at died.

I use Beartooth bullets and here is the interesting thing.
A moderately loaded Beartooth Lead bullet will shoot right through a metal falling plate at 100 yards on the range when a 2300 fps TSX will dent the plate or sometimes even stick in the plate without going through

I've had very good luck with downloaded cast/5744 in my 375 H&H and 450-400 double. Bob

Okay, thanks! ...

But for you guys using Accurate 5744 - or now I see TrailBoss becoming popular for reduced Big-Bore loadings - are you using a filler element?

Ive seen recent info saying a filler is unnecessary with A-5744, but older discussions of downloaded Big Bore handloads said filler was needed for safety reasons to prevent a SEE.

What do you folks think?

I would cast 300 gr Wheel weights and powder coat them after sizing. Better to get a mold made 0.422 size then PC & size the bullets.

Cheap as chips rather than the $1 to $2 per bullet one buys.

I am doing that with my 470 NE.

PC bullets can be shot at 2200 fps without any issues. No mess, no lubes and no leading of rifle bores.

Email AA powders about a load for reduced 404. they are extremely helpful. I load for my 416 rem and I do not use a filler I imagine you will not need it with the 404. Email them.

Reduced loads are a great deal of fun by the way and any non-sense about reduced loads not being the most awesome fun -- well they have never experienced it or not enough.

Have Fun

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:
Okay, thanks! ...

But for you guys using Accurate 5744 - or now I see TrailBoss becoming popular for reduced Big-Bore loadings - are you using a filler element?

Ive seen recent info saying a filler is unnecessary with A-5744, but older discussions of downloaded Big Bore handloads said filler was needed for safety reasons to prevent a SEE.

What do you folks think?

DO NOT COMPRESS
Trail Boss

therefore NO FILLER
needs to be loose powder

to determine load
find base of projectile location in the case
fill to that level
weigh charge
then reduce by 30%
(charges in the 30-35 grain range usually)

as XAUSA says:
.4 x your 5744 fill load to projectile base
(without or with filler-- , have done both)

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
Gundog 64

That's a very nice offer! I am moving to SE Arizona (closing on a house there within a month. Once I get relocated perhaps I can take you up on your offer. If that works for you.

Did you make these bullets? If so, where did you get the molds? I have looked on the 'net and have not found a source.

Thanks,

AT

Alec,
Your more than welcome to contact me when you get settled in your new home. Yes I cast them myself, then powder coat,apply gas check and run them in the Lee push through sizer. The molds come from Accurate Molds.Their website will walk you through the entire ordering process. I always shoot some regular hunting loads when at the range, but the majority of rounds fired are light practice loads. I do not agree with one of the posters statements about not shooting light loads. Ask any serious trap shooter about the problems that come with shooting lots of heavy recoiling rounds. I took my wife to Zimbabwe last year and she had never hunted before. I made her up a bunch of light 30-06 loads (she fired over 900 of them) for practice, never letting her shoot the hunting loads until we were actually there. She did all her practice off the sticks and she put the hurt on a bunch of critters and earned the respect of everyone in camp. The camp staff named her "one shot" as none of her animals required any tracking. I sent you a PM.
John
http://www.accuratemolds.com/

John

Many thanks for your generous offer. PM answered.

If a hard cast lead bullet at 2300 FPS is a down load I,ll eat my hat?? I would certainly think it would pass thru a Cape buffalo on a broad side shot and do what a solid would do and Ive shot a lot of buffalo with solids from 40 caliber up to 470 and one with Pierres 500 Jefferys..What do you think Alf???

quote:

Originally posted by slim buttes:
Email AA powders about a load for reduced 404. they are extremely helpful. I load for my 416 rem and I do not use a filler I imagine you will not need it with the 404. Email them.

Reduced loads are a great deal of fun by the way and any non-sense about reduced loads not being the most awesome fun -- well they have never experienced it or not enough.

Quick follow-up on this point:

Yes, the Accurate technical folks ("Don," in my case) were very helpful with 5744 loads, and VERY prompt in responding to my initial email - same day, actually.

They provided starting, mid-range, and max load data for the 380gn & 400gn .404 bullets. A follow-up email got their 3-levels of load data for the 350 .404J bullets, of which I have two boxes of the Woodleigh SPs. I'm looking to develop a "deer load" with those. They said no filler was needed with the 5744 powder.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If a hard cast lead bullet at 2300 FPS is a down load I,ll eat my hat?? I would certainly think it would pass thru a Cape buffalo on a broad side shot and do what a solid would do and Ive shot a lot of buffalo with solids from 40 caliber up to 470 and one with Pierres 500 Jefferys..What do you think Alf???

The original 400gn .404 load was roughly a mild-ish 2100fps, and it killed a lot of critters.

I would imagine a quality hard cast slug weighing 400gns - .423 or .424 in diameter and gas-checked for sure - would still kill a lot of animals even at 1800fps-2000fps.

2300 on the 404 ? Too fast ! tends the lead the barrel even with gas checks.

Do they penetrate yes ! Paradoxically so ! Even at much slower velocities ! and even better than old RN bullets !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
2300 on the 404 ? Too fast ! tends the lead the barrel even with gas checks.

Do they penetrate yes ! Paradoxically so ! Even at much slower velocities ! and even better than old RN bullets !

Alf: what's the fastest practical velocity for the gas-checked 400-grain .404 hard-casts?

And does whether they're powder-coated or not have any bearing on that velocity (increase or decrease)?

Lots of variables in determining max allowable velocity...how smooth is your bore, what is the diameter of the boolit relative to bore diameter?

BHN of the boolits?

quote:

Originally posted by tarbe:
Lots of variables in determining max allowable velocity...how smooth is your bore, what is the diameter of the boolit relative to bore diameter?

Barrel is a relatively new Douglas, .423 bore.

The one or two commercial HC boolits I've seen for the .404J were .424 as cast.

quote:

BHN of the boolits?

No idea.

I use Beartooth 380 gr cast.

Dont know what the max is , all I know is I have tried loading them to the original velocities around 2150 to 2300 fps and it made a scattergun in terms of groups...... So low we go..... but on that big case hangfires are an issue unless you go 5744 which imho is the best option out there !

@ 1900 fps or thereabouts the groups tighten up considerably.... In fact for years I have completely given up on the chrono altogether and only load for accuracy.

I have for years done just that with the 375 H&H using cast bullets. Frontier out of South Africa made a 400 gr FN copper plated cast bullet for the 375, I still have a stash and it's boringly accurate and shot low and slow is fantastic on plains game !

Frontier 400 gr copper plate cast bullet 375



Same in 416


375 400 gr 64.5 gr IMR 4350

Shooting a original Jeffery 404 presents the reloader who wishes to shoot modern monometals with some challenges.

The main problem being the Leed dimension on the 404 !

The original 404 chamber and throat allows little leeway for long monometals and especially long conical flat nose bullets.

The problem is with the bullet up against the lands the cone apex is pushed into the case mouth so that the brass overhangs the cone


Look at the bullet on the right.
The left is a typical COL loaded bullet but the right is a monometal loaded to COL and almost touhcing the lands !

Better way; swage done some 300 grain .429 44 mag bullets to .423. it is easy even in a Rock Chucker.
Those will kill deer and hogs, shoot them at 405 wcf velocities.

Thanks for the info, Alf!

I've seen that Beartooth 380gn .404 hardcast. Since I'm well-stocked on 5744 I'll have to give those a try.

Yeah, I'm more interested in accuracy over attaining max velocities, which was never the point of the 404J cartridge anyway ... 400gns at 2100fps killed DG just as efficiently as the faster .400-magnums without punishing the shooter.

Rim Rock Bullets offers a 400gn gas-checked HC boolit, so that's an option to check out.

https://rimrockbullets.com/xca...lastic-ammo-box.html

My rifle is an AHR 404J built by Wayne on a CZ 550 action. It seems to really like the Woodleigh jacketed bullets, but feeding it Woodleighs all the time is expensive. That's why I was looking for decent hardcasts. My reloading time is limited as it is, so I'm looking to buy HCs rather than make them.

When I was a boy we had "Grandfather envy !"

Serious affliction for those who did not have grandfathers who actually hunted with 404's

But then there was always the consolation that they shared stories of their hunts freely and if you were lucky you actually got to shoot one of those fabled rifles...

Back to the topic at hand!


Note the length of the 380 gr Bearthooth and the two originals to the right.
A RWS from the 70's and a late model Kynoch both loaded to COL to accomodate the 404's short throat



The next picture shows the dilemma of the full weight ( 400gr ) monometal ! The bullet on the right is a Rhino and then a 400 gr monometal
The monometal eats a lot of powder space !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
When I was a boy we had "Grandfather envy !"

Serious affliction for those who did not have grandfathers who actually hunted with 404's

But then there was always the consolation that they shared stories of their hunts freely and if you were lucky you actually got to shoot one of those fabled rifles...

Back to the topic at hand!


Note the length of the 380 gr Bearthooth and the two originals to the right.
A RWS from the 70's and a late model Kynoch both loaded to COL to accomodate the 404's short throat



The next picture shows the dilemma of the full weight ( 400gr ) monometal ! The bullet on the right is a Rhino and then a 400 gr monometal
The monometal eats a lot of powder space !

Alf:

Maybe I'm confused, but what COAL are you loading those Beartooth 380gn slugs to? 3.500? 3.520?

If I recall correctly, a box of Hornady's .404J ammo loaded with the 400gn DXG bullets miked out to an average COAL of 3.501, at least on my calipers.

I keep my loads to CIP spec COL which boils down to 3.53
Also and this is important I have 2 original 404's one trade German 10,75 x 73 ( 404 ) and a modern Custom 404 Built on standard action and all have the Mauser spec 92mm magazine box dimension. This is 3.62 inches
It limits how far out you can load bullets to

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I keep my loads to CIP spec COL which boils down to 3.53
Also and this is important I have 2 original 404's one trade German 10,75 x 73 ( 404 ) and a modern Custom 404 Built on standard action and all have the Mauser spec 92mm magazine box dimension. This is 3.62 inches
It limits how far out you can load bullets to

Agree with you that the bullet seating depth for the 404 is more to do with the magazine length that can be obtained with an opened out standard Mauser action rather than the leade of the barrel. When Jeffery developed the 404 cartridge the Magnum Mauser action had not been produced, these long actions came later from Mauser who were not happy with gunsmiths opening out and potentially weakening their standard M98 action for longer cartridges. Problem was that they gave Rigby sole distribution rights to the magnum Mauser action who then whacked on a hefty price tag to other makers. Jeffery carried on opening up the standard M98.

400gr cup and core bullets crimped into the cannelure fit perfectly into the full length of the 404 case neck with no intrusion into the powder space with a COAL of about 89.5mm. My 400gr cast bullets with a small flat on the nose have a COAL of 87.5mm with the gas check still contained in the case neck. The cartridges fit perfectly into a 92mm magazine box without any slap.