I was in the local gun store yesterday and they showed me pictures of a 1700lb bison that a man I know shot. I haven't talked to him yet,but the story goes:
He was in Wyoming on a mule deer hunt and had the chance to hunt a bison on a ranch. Wanting to do it the "right" way, he used a 1874 Sharps .45-70 with factory 405gr cast loads. It took 7 shots to kill the bull.
I know the man is a fairly good shot. What went wrong? Was the factory ammo too slow to penetrate to the vitals? Was it poor bullet performance. I know this round killed millions of buffalo in its day. Could his shooting have been that poor?
I will ask him when I see him again, but that may be a while and this is really bugging me.
Thoughts? Ghost

None of us was there, mind you, but it could have been:
a) unfamiliarity with the gun
b) sights were 'off'
c) poor bullet placement
d) poor bullet performance (too soft)
e) 'bison fever'

There is a pretty good article on the cartridges used to hunt bison in the 1850-1880s:

Bison cartridges

George

BS, the 45-70 is too weak for Bison and elk IMO....Thats based on use not presumption and BS....

If a bullet does not reach 2100 FPS at the muzzle, then its not a Large animal rifle IMO...I observed the 45-70 fail miserably on two elk last year with hot handloaded Noslers that performed well in expansion but the elk did not bleed and covered much distance. All well placed shots....

This year my grandson made two good shots with a 50 Bowolf, a 535 gr. bullet (corebond and solid) at 1800 plus a bit and that bull lived an hour and went near a mile or two in a snowstorm...I posted all of these events as they occured...

I used a 45-90 for several years and had simuliar events take place before I abandoned it....Sure I had some good kills along the way, but more failures than I could live with...I think these old guns are great deer guns.

My question is will I ever learn, and I suspect that based on this post that I have finally figured it out.....No more the old black powder guns, even with smokeless unless they can churn up 2100 with a 400 gr. bullet of proper SD.......

The mistake that most make when hunting with cast bullets is that they always seem to try to take the heart/lung shot behind the shoulder. Even most deer have been know to run several hundreds of yds. with a hole poked through both sides. Like they say, ya gotta hit 'em in the shoulder and break the shoulder bone/bones to knockem down on their ass. Paco Kelly has posted how cast bullets have failed miserably for no apparent reason. You'd probably have dig up the story on Leverguns.com.

I am going to hunt a large bull bison this spring and was thinking of using my new Pedersoli 1874 deluxe ingraved .45-70 because it would be cool . I am 40 years old with wife and children and I am not into "extreme sports". I want this bison to GO DOWN!!! Even though the .45-70 might work fine, I'm not very fast at running anymore and can't afford to have it fail. After hearing some feedback, I am thinking that the .450 Ackley Magnum might be the gun of choice . I'm moving a 400gr A-frame at 2412ft/sec and it seems to "ruin the day" of anything it hits .
Ghost

Dude, you won't be overgunned with the Ackley. Now, with that cartridge with soft points, I just might use the behind the shoulder shot.

There are many stories here in Colorado about the inadequacy of the 45-70, especially with 405 grain loads, for large (>2,000 lb) bison. A friend needed 5 shots in the heart/lung area to put down a 2,200 lb animal. I was told that another hunter took 9 shots with a 45-70 before switching to a 458 Winchester that the guide was carrying. The 458 Winchester, with a factory 510 grain bullet, put the bison down immediately. For comparison, I have dropped similar sized bison with one shot using a 338 Winchester and 250 grain Nosler Partition Federal High Energy loads and with a 458 Winchester loaded with 400 grain Woodleigh Protected Point bullets at a velocity of 2,360 feet per second.

In 2001 I shot a bull bison identical in weight as your friend. My gun was a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 with 22" barrel. I used handloaded cast lead 405 grain bullets loaded to a chronographed speed of 1350 FPS, identical to what the 45-70 did back in the 1800's. It took two shots at about 70 yards, the first was a broadside on a slight angle, the bullet hit in the ribs going up into the liver, it did not have full penetration and the bull did not even flinch. The second shot was a true broadside center chest right at the long hair line, the bull shuddered on impact, staggered about 5 yards and went down with hardly any post fall movement. This bullet also did not penetrate fully. Due to the herd was hanging around we could not waste any time looking for the spent bullets. I was totally impressed with the 45-70 performance. My partner shot a cow that scaled only a couple of hundred pounds lighter and his was shot 5 times with a 30-06 180 failsafes and the animal never flinched and walked away in the herd until we found it dead 10 minutes later [image]http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=93430[/image] [url=http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=93430]

] Buffalo Bob and who says a 45-70 can't do a big bull !!

...and this is why most of the buff hunters preferred the Sharps "Big 50", the .50-90. If they were using a .45 most used a .45-90, 110, or in some cases a 120 but not often.

Timberghost,

It is VERY likely that five or six of the 7 shots fired by the man in your story were redundant. It is fairly common knowledge that bison, unless hit somewhere in the central nervous system, may not react to a killing shot in the least. They will mull around, slowly start to wobble, and then simply fall over. The 45-70 is certainly sufficient to take down bison and will penetrate into the vitals using proper bullets. Using lower velocity "factory" loads designed for older weapons or on a big thick bull, I would probably try to angle the shot under the shoulder muscles. Wait for the animal to take a step while he is angled away from you and shoot low into what is essentially the animals "arm pit". The heart is surprisingly low and forward in the bison's torso and the lungs are pushed very far forward into the chest of the animal by his other internal organs. The other alternative which is a good one on ranch "hunts" since there is no real possibility of losing the animal (and for the sake of a humane kill) is to be patient and shoot for the atlas joint with that .45-70 . . . just use well-constructed bullets. I don't recommend this rather risky shot on free roaming animals like those hunted in the Henry Mountains of Utah as there is too much risk of the animal running like hell if you miss the joint. At this point, you either have a wounded animal to chase or a B!T&# of a recovery mission should he get to thick timber or a nasty ravine before bleeding out. Performing "bison recovery" duty is not a fun way to spend FOUR DAYS, of that I can assure you! THOSE QUARTERS ARE HEAVY! When hunting free roaming animals, I really recommend putting a quick, well-placed shot or two into the vitals and then (if you have time), THEN go for the atlas joint or spine to prevent the animal from getting into the thick stuff. First, make sure the animal will experience a relatively humane death and THEN worry about where he is going to fall.

All that said, and as much as I like the 45-70, my last two bison were taken with my .416 Rem Mag and went down as quick or quicker than either of the guides had seen.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek
buffler runner

Buffalo are one tough cookie.The wild ones in Alaska are very tough.There is a store that shows pictures of kills and what they shot them with and how many shots.I have seen some killed with 4 and 5 shots with 458 and 375.The hump is lump of meat above back bone at shoot there with no results..I had a friend who died last year he poped one in head in his hay with a 243.It took about 3 hours but the big bull died .He was trying to shoot over it.Then there is the moose the guy shot with a 25acp to scare it ,yep it died next day from head shot.Buffalo shoulder bones can be driven over with a truck and not broken very tough.I saw one this year in the wild herd it looked like a frickin tank going across the field.They can snap trees up to a foot wide like twigs watched them do that.If I ever get a tag which is almost inpossible I will be using my 416 rem mag with 410 gr woodleigfh bullets.

raamw, dude, you just happen to luck out on a cast bullet only goin out at 1350. I own and shoot about 5 45-70's in various guises and I know the cartridges's limitation. There just isn't enough powder capacity for any good loads without breaking your gun up into a wreck. All mine will shoot cast loads going out at around 1900 but I limit them to the occasional sight in shot and where game is involved. Sure, the bison were killed with the venerable round way back when. What you don't hear about is how many just ran away to bleed miles away because these guys weren't sport hunters. After all, the mission was to exterminate the food source of indigenous Amerinds and put them all into reservations.

You all know what I think, them damn Buffalo are to damned Stupid to die!

Here I was the big Buffalo hunter out of Africa with my big africa Buffalo gun and somehow the Bison did not attend the lecture on how to die when shot with a 404.

Well that did not come a surprise as our guide who I believe to be native of there parts also did not know what a 404 was.

I shot two Bison no less, and neither took it to task to up and die so I shot number 2 again this time using a simple 300H&H loaded up with a Woodleigh, only then did it comply with our wishes.

No personally I think it's not cause they are tough, it's cause they are actually so soft, and so stupid, the big guns simply shoot through them,same a using solids on body shot on Cape Buff;

In retrospect I should have used a Springfield trapdoor
( something I was contemplating on account of nostalgia) loaded with something soft with lots of splat factor.

There were a lot of Bison killed with the 45-70, probably more than any other caliber as it was the Big Dog until the 50-90 Sharps came along in 1872 (not delivered until '73 and then rare for awhile after that.).

Professional Hunters liked the heart and lung shots as the Bison would usually just stand and not react to the shot, eventually falling over and not disturbing the herd. This allowed for several more shots than would have occured if the herd was riled up or moving.

Last Spring I watched a friend shoot a Big Bull through the top of the Heart with a 375 Holland and a 300 gr. Nosler. The shot was 125 yards at an undisturbed animal and from the time of the shot until it fell was 17 minutes. Even after it fell it was still alive for another couple of minutes. The interesting part was that even after the shot and the animal falling the other Bulls with it, 3 or 4, did not move off and continued to graze in the same place. It was only after we walked up toward them and got within 50 yards that they turned and ran off.

Anybody that saids a 45-70 wasn't capable of Killing Buffalo probably thinks superman is a real crime fighter, give me a brake. More buffalo met their doom to the 45-70-405 than any other cartridge, largesly because they were mass produced for the military and they did the job. The larger 45-90 and up were designed to improve on this cartridge and as a fact most them never were proven as well since the great herds were gone by that time. I suspect most guys who think like that are relatively poor shots and have to make up with power, don't get me wrong their is nothing wrong with power but stealth has filled the game bags for hundreds of years when they were forced to use what was available. Seems to me that most forums talkers suscribe to bigger is better, this exactly what the gun manufacturer likes since a well made rifle if maintained will last several lifetimes, how do these companies stay in business.....create demand by getting shooters believe they re old rifle can't do the job anymore...hogwash. The old 45-70, 30-06, 30-30, 375 and a couple other oldtimers have accounted for more animals that all these other new kids on the block, All these new calibers do is keep the gun manufacturers in business, I will not give up my old 45-70 for the 450, 30-06 for the 30 RUMS, the 375 for the wanna bees, and the 458 for these 9000 Nitros. The hunters of past did very well, even with less, the hunters today even using the same cartridges are so much ahead due to better bullets, powders, optics and manufacturing techniques. The only benefits the higher velocity rounds due is allow hunters who shouldn't be hunting hunt. It allows greater range....but then again how many competent shooters practice at long ranges and are capable of hitting targets at those long ranges under hunting conditions. I am a subscriber to use enough gun and the right gun within your capabilities but thats about it...again IMHO.



As far as souping up the 45-70, take out life insurance pal, especially the type that pays for missing body parts like arms hand and fingers, I loaded some of those 1900 FPS 405 45-70 and it scared the heck out of me, seems to me if you want it to shoot like a 458WM than just buy the 458WM and don't worry about your body parts.

Timberghost,
If you don't want to chase you will need to follow John the Greek's advise. Bison will not drop, typically, to a 45 caliber bullet to the chest. Specifically, in order to eliminate the run potential, front on head shot. Aim just below the horn line. Works very well. Use a hard and stongly constructed bullet! WA bison's skull is both thick and hard.

Scott

Bison are phlegmatic; they won't usually react to bullet impacts.

I lucked out, shooting mine in the head with my .30-30 Contender pistol. It's all I had at the time the bison was offered to me, so I used it, but I don't recommend it.

George

I'm sure Garrett will read this thread and then write a new article condemning all this ammo for making the mighty 45-70 look bad. Shame on all of you who are under mining all of Garrett's hard work.

raamw,

While I do not disagree with your comments in general, I do have a question for you. Have you ever shot a mature bull bison? Mature being at least 5 years old, but really 7 years old. Most of the bison I see paraded around on these forums are calves (1 year olds) to young adolescents (2 - 3 year olds). These specimens lack the muscle and bone mass of a mature bull and typically are not nearly as tough to bring down.

Bison are tough, they don't die easily. They ain't whitetailed deer! Also, back in the day when the herds were decimated, NO ONE cared if they took several miles of prairie to die! I have seen 45-70s kill bison, they will do it instantly with a head shot, or a few minutes in the heart.

Oh yeah, bigger is better. I know, I have actually been there and done that!

Scott

At last...a Big Bore subject where i have some field experience!

We hunted Woods Bison in Canada's Northwest Territories for quite a few years, back in the 1970s when a resident could just buy a $25.00 tag and go hunting....no draws. These bison are typically darker in color and larger than Plains Bison, and live in areas of DENSE spruce-and-willow lowland mixed with open grassland areas where they feed.

Early experience taught us very quickly that typical moose/caribou calibers were't very effective at killing them quickly. This was desireable because of the dense bush which was always nearby, ready to hide an escaping animal.

I bought the .404 Cogswell and Harrison just for hunting these huge critters, and used it on a number of them.

ITEM: A cow bison the first year with the .404, range 200 yards, unfortunately forced to use SOLIDS. Result: After SEVEN hits, including several impacting right on the shoulder from broadside, the animal ran into the heavy bush at last light and became the ONLY wounded big game I've lost in my hunting career. By the time she ran off, I could clearly see the blood dripping from the chest area and the big blotch on the shoulder. It was my attempt to get closer that finally caused her to run.

ITEM: A HUGE bull, about 12 years old, range 190 (paced-out) yards, quartering slightly away....ONE Barnes Original (.049"-jacket softpoint) went through the top of the heart and EXITED through the off shoulder, and the bull dropped instantly to the shot. The shoulder was broken, and he was still trying to get up when I gave him the coup de grace at close range. The hide touched both walls of the 12-wide "house" we lived in, and the meat in the freezer amounted to 1500 pounds!!!

ITEM: A cow bison running across my front, range about 40 yards, in three-foot-high grass. I didn't want the bullet to get into the grass, so fired for a high chest hit. The Barnes bullet (same .049 softpoint) took out the spine, exited, and she was dead on the spot. Friend who saw the action from 100 yards ahead of the bison said he saw big chunks of bone airborne from the hit.

ITEM: Another cow, only 15 yards away in brush, and running hard across my front. The rifle hung up on a branch as I fired, and the bullet broke a HIND leg. She didn't even slow down and was immediately out of sight. I alowed 15 minutes and started tracking, which only lasted about 200 yards. She was lying-up on the edge of a small grassy area, and stood up broadside just after I spotted her. One round (same Barnes bullet) through both shoulders dropped her instantly from 100 yards.

Given the correct bullet, I'd take this rifle after anything. I would certainly continue my current practice of aiming to hit heavy bone in the shoulder area....that's one of the finest things about larger calibers...they WILL break bone and continue to the vitals (again, with GOOD bullets). On quartering-away animals, I aim to take the FAR shoulder, and quartering-toward animals, I shoot through the NEAR shoulder. Broadside, I shoot both shoulders, of course. Stern shots? NEVER!

My wife and I were caught in a bison stampede one day. A herd of about 200 head had been lying-up in a band of bushland about 1/4 mile across, when they were startled by our hunting companions. They ran away through the bush, toward US! We could see trees being knocked down toward us, the ground was starting to shake....we backed away from the treeline into open ground, hoping they'd see us and swerve away. We got 50 yards into the open when they broke out of the trees straight at us. I'd told my wife that if any animal ran directly at us, we'd both shoot it and hope we could shelter behind the carcass. I saw her rifle muzzle beside me as I looked over the sights at the herd, but fortunately the leading critters saw us and the herd SPLIT and ran by on both sides of us! They were so close we could feel the body heat...maybe 5 yards.

What a rush THAT was.....

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

I shot a bison this year with my 500 NE using bridger flat nosed solids. The bull dropped at the shot and was dead before I could even pull the trigger a second time. It pissed me off, because for what I paid I wanted to get in at least two shots. An autopsy showed the bullet went through heart and lung, tearing the lungs pretty well.

My conclusion is that a bison is pretty easy to kill.

It seems to me that hunting bison with a 45-70 one needs to think penetration first then carefully consider shot selection.

The only way I know to do it is with a big heavy and hard bullet otherwise the 45-70 just does not penetrate. Shot selection should then be restricted to the CNS.

Hunting with the 45-70 on game this big is like hunting with a handgun. It can be done but bullet and shot selection become critical.

This is the 21st Century. There are better choices!

Jamie

You are right on. We used 458Lotts . 2 shots 2 LARGE bulls. I used a 500gr Hornady soft point.

Canuck,
Thanks for the anatomy information . I assume that the big hump back does make most people shoot high. We tend to "put it in the middle of them" when picking our shot, verticle, by nature. This will help my shot placement this spring.
Thanks, Ghost

Maybe the bullet was to fast. Perhaps he should just load it down to 100 f/sec and get Garret-performance with lengthwise exits etc etc etc...

Always so much fun to listen to the "experts" here on AR.

Anyone got any idea why so many people have and continue to get complete penetration with .45s of whatever ilk using even lowly real black gunpowder and lead bullets? Really couldn't possibly happen right? So, what really IS the explanation, all you "experts" out there?

Taking AR "expertise" a step further, if you get complete pass though with a .45-70 using a soft lead bullet AND if you do believe that hydrostatic shock is a myth - as recently described on another AR thread, then why would a .458 Lott be the minimum .45 capable of killing a bison?

curiouser and curiouser,

Brent

Tread cautiously Brent, or you will join me on the "troll warning" notice.

Scott

The frontal area and bullet momentum with proper speed and proper bullet to get the job done.

ScottS,
I am not afraid of the "troll" title you seem to cultivate so readily. Frankly, no matter how much I may disagree with the AR "experts" I doubt they will lable me as a troll, just a contrary person. There are enough people here that know me, and anyone can track me down to figure out who and what I am - are am not. I don't hide in shadows, and those who know me know what I do and have done.

Your strange past, to the extent I have been forced to follow it, seems otherwise.

Brent

Would a hardcast 405gr bullet do the job? For a modern lever action, one can load a jacketed 405gr bullet to 1870fps (per the Speer manual). A hardcast lead bullet would probably do another 100fps for a velocity of about 1950fps for that 405gr hardcast. Would this break both shoulders on a bison? Would it completely penetrate?

I am asking because over on the Marlin firearms message boards, the biggest game generally discussed is elk, which the 45-70 will completely flatten with a 405gr hardcast at 1850fps or 350gr JFP at 2000fps. I have read this discussion with a lot of interest, because it is the first time I've read where the 45-70 may not be enough.

Has anyone hunted bison using a Ruger #1 in 45-70? A 405gr hardcast bullet can be loaded to 2100fps, and I can't imagine it not completely penetrating.

If you place the shot properly the answer should be yes.



I find your comments about elk interesting. My little bitty 416 Rigby required two hits, one in the lower heart, and the second in the lungs, to flatten a bull elk at ~ 60 yards this past November. I was shooting 300gr X bullets at a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps. They left a nice exit hole about one inch high and 3.5" long (they were side by side in the animal). I wasn't impressed, by the way.



Brent,



From your registration date I can assume you did not know me before the last "troll war". I was not always so very infamous around here.



Would you be interested in going shooting sometime? I find myself in the Iowa, South Dakota, Nebraska area from time to time. If you would not mind, I would like to meet you. Perhaps you will discover that I am not the troll some make me out to be.



Scott

Anytime you find yourself around exit 113 on Interstate 35, I'm happy to shoot if I'm not in class or out of town. I have plenty of ranges to choose from.

Brent

I'll keep it in mind. I will try to give a few weeks notice.

Scott