Any one else see the announcement that E. R. Shaw is going to produce a "70" clone???

Is going to be at the Shot Show this year

does their website say this?

If it takes as long to appear as the MRC 1999s, and the Williams Firearms actions, who will care?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
If it takes as long to appear as the MRC 1999s, and the Williams Firearms actions, who will care?

George

Good point GeorgeS
I was quoted six months from Shaw to install a barrel to an action!!!!!if they're this far behind.......

Browning will have a Model 70 clone available in the near future as well.

I wonder how many features will be cut.

I bet the first thing to go on the new Winchester Model 70 Classic no mater what company returns the design to the market plaece will be the cone breach system.

I must be getting close the the one year anniversary of the demise of the M70, and still no off the rack rifle are available.

It will be interesting to see if the company that presents to the shooting/buying public a new M70, has forgoten the hard lesson learn by Winchester when the came out with the post 64 model. So much was lost for the sake of increased profitablity that whole company was brought down to the point where not its not even a shadow of its former self.
"Engineers/designer make it good then the accountants step in and kill it", the moto of the new industrial age.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see just how the Browning Model 70 will turn out. I hope the Classic design is retained without any changes, except, how about a one-piece machined bolt? Yeah, right! Seriously, tho, whether Brwoning makes any design changes or not, their Model 70 will probably have a higher degree of fit and finish, than USRAC's product. I just can't see Browning marketing a shoddy product. Price? Could very well be substantially higher. Fit and finish costs more money, and furthermore prices on guns in general appear to be headed higher in a hurry. A local gun shop manager told me recently that the dealer cost on new Remington's was going up 10 to 12%. Could very well be that the inflated prices on some Classics we see now, won't seem all that bad in a few years.

quote:

Originally posted by mudstud:
Yeah, it will be interesting to see just how the Browning Model 70 will turn out. I hope the Classic design is retained without any changes, except, how about a one-piece machined bolt? Yeah, right! Seriously, tho, whether Brwoning makes any design changes or not, their Model 70 will probably have a higher degree of fit and finish, than USRAC's product. I just can't see Browning marketing a shoddy product. Price? Could very well be substantially higher. Fit and finish costs more money, and furthermore prices on guns in general appear to be headed higher in a hurry. A local gun shop manager told me recently that the dealer cost on new Remington's was going up 10 to 12%. Could very well be that the inflated prices on some Classics we see now, won't seem all that bad in a few years.

Well, I have no complaints about the Browning clones of the Win. M71, 1886, and M65's!

If Miroku makes the Model 70's, they'll be as good as the pre-64's made here!

Yeah, I agree!

I am guessing in a few years I will be hunting with my new W70 made in Japan. On my next trip out for big critters up close I will be carrying my rifle made in France (Chapuis). Fair chance I will be shooting bullets made in Aussie. It's all rather interesting.

It would be informative to have an accurate update as to what the facts are.

For sure the NH plant has been closed and some machinery was auctioned.

Some other information that may be true is that FN Herschal still has the rights to the Winchester M70 name and that they own Browning? If thats true then just the USARC name will go away and the Browning name will market the M70 and maybe the 94 like it's done now with the other so called Winchesters that Browning sells.

There was a statement that FN might make the M70 in Columbia, SC when the union contract with NH ran out.

As for myself I will not buy a jap made gun no matter what it is. Nor will I buy a foreign made M70. I have plenty of M70's anyway and these days I like Kimbers.

To be perfectly honest I could care less where my rifles are made as long as they are made correctly. I know this is not in line with current thinking of a lot of members here but free market enterprise is what brings about better products.

These quotes are from another forum(The perfect bolt action).
Winchester is his username.

4/06/06 12:49 PM

"Hello all,

Many of you have seem my posts dealing with Winchester and the related websites www.SaveWinchester.com and the www.WinchesterForSale.com website.

What I'd like to ask everyone now is what features do they want to see on a new bolt action, a perfected bolt action. Before you start typing away on a response, let me explain to you why I'm asking.

During one of the early conversations with the executives at USRAC and several other industry execs some one of them made the comment. There is no new Winchester that could be made that the market would accept. Needless to say I disagree. I've already designed 3 new models, however, I know its the small items that really make or break a rifle. Where a safety is or isn't, where the mag release is, if it has a box mag or a removeable clip, etc. These are the items I'd like to hear from you on. As soon as the raw actions hit patent pending I'll post them here for all 2 see. I believe you'll be very pleased.

The teaser I'll leave you with is that the 2 executives to see it under a NonDisclosure first accused the one design as having been a remake of an 1800 piece, then saw all the advances and that is was total new and were about speachless. Grant it, I don't think it was that good, but the main point is its got a classic design and some worth while features on it".


Mike
------------------------------------------------
05/06/06 08:09 AM

"Already on that path, the gentleman handling the prototype is one of the top members of the American Custom Gunsmithing Guild.

Don't worry about me doing anything cheap guys. I've put my house, my shop, my wife, and my career on the line and I've already lost my credit gambling at finding someone to work this out. I wouldn't do all that to make a piece of garbage.

I am confident that you will all be very pleased when you see the prototypes".

------------------------------------------------

05/06/06 02:04 PM

"We've been reviewing new methods like EDM as well as waterjet technology. Right now forging or investment casting are looking most probable. Due to the new action design bar stock isn't possible".

-----------------------------------------------

07/06/06 10:29 AM

"Guys, I really appreciate all the feed back. And you can be confident that this type of dialog will continue if I have anything to say about it.

I think lefties are statistically 20% of the market and don't worry they are included in the mix. I can't wait to get these patent pending so you all can see. They both should be some of the best bolt actions ever made, but the most advance action addresses any concern I think I have ever heard of and should be significantly more stout than any other bolt action ever made. The Safari hunters in here will appreciate many of the aspects of the functionality and especially the extraction.

Well all, wish me luck I'm driving to Denver tomorrow to make a meeting that will hopefully push this all along".

Mike

------------------------------------------------

15/06/06 06:26 AM

"I'm loving this discussion. You are debating many of the issues that one of the new design eliminates entirely. I hope you will all be thrilled when you see it.

Some great points being made.

For those of you that didn't see it in the other forum tomorrow the article will be coming out in the Wall Street Journal in the market place. Please take a read and let me know".

Thanks

Mike

------------------------------------------------

STILL WAITING

Tez338,
While I haven't seen that before, it sounds to me like that is from the fellow who was trying to buy USRAC last summer, with Wall Street money, I believe. Nor do I remember just now what they called their hopeful company. (Sorry, I have a good memory, it's just awful short.) Sad to say, none of this is relevant anymore, I suppose, with Browning getting the rights to manufacture Winchester rifles. Do you have a link for that forum, or is it on the SaveWinchester or the other link?

quote:

Originally posted by mudstud:
Tez338,
While I haven't seen that before, it sounds to me like that is from the fellow who was trying to buy USRAC last summer, with Wall Street money, I believe. Nor do I remember just now what they called their hopeful company. (Sorry, I have a good memory, it's just awful short.) Sad to say, none of this is relevant anymore, I suppose, with Browning getting the rights to manufacture Winchester rifles. Do you have a link for that forum, or is it on the SaveWinchester or the other link?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=bigbores

Under Bigbore rifles.
"The Perfect Bolt Action"

Is this true,Browning will be making(Sole rights) the Model 70 (Please Sir).

I think if they did it 100% the same,with the exceptions of maybe getting rid of the third(Middle) floorplate screw(Which I think Winchester did that later in the peace?) it would be a winner IMO.

And wouldn't it be a dream come true(for many) if they copied the post-war Pre-64 rifle to the letter,all with the bonus of it being made with CNC machining & today's steels.
As some bullshit about metallurgy(Brittle) was the only thing non-Pre64 fans could pick-on.O-yeah also something about handling gas escapes=blown primer or head case separation/gases making its ways to the shooters eyes.
Well maybe this will be the time to address such issues?

Metallurgy,well that's an easy fix as today's steels are FIRST CLASS.
Second fix is just as easy.=Drill a few holes into the bolt(As seen on the Wby Mark V),or a slight flange on the bolt shroud(But this is a little more difficult,but not impossible).
IMO 3 gas venting holes in the bolt & 2 on either side of the receiver would fix it well enough.

Japanese take great pride in there workmanship,so I can only see this as being great news.As we all know the final days Winchester was producing Friday afternoon rifles.When we all know they used to(CAN) produce a quality rifle with few equals.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
To be perfectly honest I could care less where my rifles are made as long as they are made correctly. I know this is not in line with current thinking of a lot of members here but free market enterprise is what brings about better products.

No my friend, it actually brings about huge trade deficits, fewer jobs, and lower wages.

The simple fact of the matter is Winchester Model 70s should have cost twice as much as they did when the classic was introduced so that a finished product could be put out. There is so much discussion about the finish work that went into the pre 64s. There was little or none that went into the classics. They were already losing money on the guns. How could they be expected to. It was a given the gun would be purchased for 600 and then dropped off at the smith's for a few hundred more depending. Seems more than reasonable considering what is put out for any other semi customs.

Jap guns AINT a good thing for anyone in the western hemisphere. Just a few more straws.

The Pre'64 Model 70 is the finest magazine rifle ever made, and perhaps the most desirable rifle in the Collectors field. I have a hard time finding good guns, and when I do the prices have increased considerabley in recent times. When you copy something you are showing the highest degree of admireation. Hece, we have the Dakota,Kimber, Beretta, and even the Post '64 Classic falls in this catigory. The opriginal is still the best, and I will continue to hunt, and shoot these fine rifles. I'm not interested in the New Model 70 Classic. It ia a O.K. gun but comes up short compared to the Original Pr'64 Model 70. If Browning makes a gun designed like the Model 70 they should change the Model number. Just like Winchester should of done back in 1964. This didn't happen, and won't Today, simply because hanging onto the coattails of the Legend will sell more guns then coming up with a new model number. This is in my honest, and humble opinion, some will disagree with this. Except for those like me who rely on the original"Rifleman's rifle" that was made in New Haven, Ct.

The path of least resistance would be to remake the M70 Classic as it was with non union labor.

I too favor the pre 64 70's but the Classic is easier to make by todays methods. Also the bolt handle on a Classic clears a scope better.

One small change would be to copy whatever Kimber does on the safeties. A Kimber safety is easy for me to articulate with just my thumb and its quiet. Not so with a M70.

The last M70 that I bought new is a 2002 Classic in 7mm WSM and the chamber is way out of round due to the broaching out of part of the action threads as pointed out by Bill Leeper.

It took 40 years but USARC and that union finally killed the M70 and the 94.

Remains to be seen if the new M70 chambers for the WSM's what with the Jamison deal and that out of round problem.

pre-64's were just as out of whack as the CLassic actions, or the typical Remington 700 for that matter. STart tearing the tifles apart and measuring and you will quickly see what I mean. All of the much talked about "hand finishing" was not so hot on a lot of the rifles too.

Sorry to dissapoint any one, but die-hard M70 fanatics usually don't believe it anyway.

Savage99,

that union you speak of, under the ownership and leadership of Olin MADE the P64 model70 the most desired hunting rifle in the world. There have been hundreds of unsuccessful attempts to prove that unions have done in ANY company...it is merely the basic ploy by corrupt, self-serving management all over the US to find a scapegoat for their lack of albility to adjust to changing market conditions and compete. See the airlines bankruptcy program of the month...wage concessions and layoffs...doesn't seem to help more than a week or two.

Example: Daimler-Chrysler Dodge Ram pickup trucks. I own one, and the "made in " sticker says Saltillo, Mexico. I did some research on the plant a year back...as the sticker on the window said $44,970 MSRP. The government of Mexico keeps any union talk outside the door and D-C fires anyone they catch listening. They earn $1.55 to $2.45 an hour, and have Z-E-R-O medical or retirement benefits, if you get hurt, they pay for the doctor to put you back together and then fire you. Mexico has no EPA or OSHA, a perfect corporate environment and THE ideal situation to produce a truck that would undercut the made in USA brands, pricewise. Somehow that Dodge was within 1% retail of the others.

The reason companies have issues with unions is simple, but a flawed model is responsible. Today, we see any 75 year old retired employee "worthy" of an unlimited medical coverage. Doctors love to do complicated, intricate surgeries, and hospitals compete to buy the most expensive machinery out there for the status. The "non-profit" hospital here, under intense scrutiny for charging the same or more for most in-patient surgeries finally had to admit that they tack on about 15-18% to EVERY patients bill to cover the 100-million dollar major surgical unit they built. They also figure that treating illegals and indigents adds 20-21% to your bill. The vaunted HMO's add another 8-10% for their cost saving bite out of your keister.

Oil prices are the real culprit, but somehow you don't read about companies requiring OPEC to lower prices, and nobody in the US govt. wants to start weaning the public from gas/diesel engines to solar or cold fusion technology.

My brother is a prime example. He works for the power company back east. They hired a new labor negotiator who came to the bargaining table three years ago and flat told them they make too much money and have too many benefits...this from a company that is mandated by state law to take its total production costs and add 14% to the consumers bill. He had planned to retire this fall, but will stay one for the next contract because this negotiator is already talking to the under-forty division saying that if they cut retirement benefits "just a little" they could double the raise %-age on the new four year proposals.

I see that the CEO of Home Depot is stepping down(got fired)...with a $210,000,000 parachute...compared to the $43,000,000 total profit-sharing bonus paid to 35,000+ hourley employees in 2005...there's your problem.

You will look around one day in about seven or eight years and realize that the US is becoming a third world country. Everyone laughed and said "damn unions" when the steel industry moved offshore. They did the same thing when the shoe/clothing industry did the same thing. Now car companies are going out as well, and the laughter is somewhat muted. Called you credit card company lately? They are most likely taking your call in Bombay. We are now sending those non-union white collar jobs overseas...millions of good paying "careers" are now leaving the country. I'm glad I can retire shortly and let the next generation figure out how to bring prosperity back home.

Not hammering you, just the notion that you can somehow hire $20 dollar an hour help for minimum wage and expect better productivity and profits.

Oh yeah, the NRA is a union for us gunowners.


Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS

Idaho Sharpshooter,

The primary problem is bad management. However I worked with a union for 20 years and its so depressing.

My son has his own home improvement business and he walked into a large job where he had be retained. He walked into the union part of the job. He said that everyone had their head down and would not even answer a question.

I was part of junior management and we had a talk by the rep. from the IAM. It was asked what if he could make an agreement that would hurt the company? Would he do it? He said "Its their own lookout"

I have a lot more experiance that just those two stories.

Very good modern management can deal with a union but you would rather not.

Read what Edward Deming said about unions!

For the record.....we have no data nor has anyone directly linked with USRAC implied that the union had anything to do with discontinuing activities at the New Haven plant. It's all speculation IMO and not relevant to the new M-70 that might be seen in coming months.

Vapo,

Joe Polarchick ran the W&S turret lathe. He was one of those guys who did not take a break and was on piecework. He was full of enthusiasm and energy.

He would stop me when I was walking around in the shop and show me castings that where the surface that the jaws gripped were not even and thus it made for more work and less quality.

The union did not like Joe. He "killed the job" and where have you heard that before thousands and thousands of times? Joe quit. I missed him. Then I quit. I can't live like that.

S99.....I'm not sure I'm reading this right.....

Are you saying you personally was an employee of USRAC at the New Haven plant?

BTW.....anyone running a W&S Turret Lathe is working on ancient equipment.....last one I saw was in Owatonna MN about 1965.....it's all CNC today!

No this was at a much larger co. It was a W&S #5.

It was used thru 1980 at least. They had one K&T c&c 3D miller.

Then the union struck us when the contract ran out. That was Jan 1. They came back 4-15 and the word was that the company would never build another building in that state again. They kept their word moving all the inventory to Atlanta and mfg to the South, Europe, Thialand, Mexico and of course China.

We had 8,000 people there and now maybe 400.

The company remains the market leader and quite profitable. The union hall has been closed and sold.

quote:

The path of least resistance would be to remake the M70 Classic as it was with non union labor.

Like in a sweat shop in Japan????!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:

quote:

The path of least resistance would be to remake the M70 Classic as it was with non union labor.

Like in a sweat shop in Japan????!!!!

No. Like the BMW plant in Greenville, SC or maybe EVEN the FN plant in Columbia, SC.

BMW SC

Savage99,

point well taken, I am not saying all unions are good, or all companies are out to screw the employees. Business, by common sense definition is an amoral enterprise. Their only mission in life is to maximize ROI to the shareholders. They do not care about employees, except to hire them and use them up and do that as cheaply as possible. That's the issue with mass production, they think anybody can do it.

But, taking your case in point, are any of those 8,000 employees ever going to return to the spending levels they once enjoyed? The taxbase suffers, the community suffers, and the market suffers. As far as the BMW plant, it runs like it was in Germany. Management and hourly see themselves as one cohesive unit...that plant against the world. Not, management VS union. That is the flawed model I spoke of. If Corporate America rewarded union members like they do management every hourly worker in this country would make a million a year, with six-figure annual bonuses for shoddy workmanship. Generally, management is not about "sharing", it's about how cheap can we get help and cut corners and make the max pre-tax profit, and how can we shelter as much of that $$$ as possible from the government. Do you find it amazing that the employees of nearly every company (over 3,000 hourly staff) end up paying more federal income tax than that company does?

Models suggest strongly, that in between seven and eight years that one last company to maximize profits by moving production offshore will be the rollover corporation...tht plunges the US into a serious depression, and that the world will follow. The issue is that good jobs leave, and are replaced by entry-level paying ones.

It's a recipe for disaster, longterm and no cure in sight. I'm going to go to the range and shoot my 416 and 9,3x62 CZ's.

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS