I am finally getting caught up enough in life to consider such weighty questions as in the subject line of the thread.

This didn't used to be a conundrum for me. Staring with the 450 NE 3.25", it only made sense to choose the 450 TSX over anyone's 480 grainer when I had the gun regulated by Aaron Little. My desired load of RL-17 pushes those 450s at 2250 fps, and all my research indicated that would handle anything on Earth save elephant, and elephant should be hunted with solids anyway--according to those that know.

Then I came into a sweet deal on a CZ 550 Safari with an unfired custom barrel in 458 Lott. After I bedded it in the B&C stock and sent it to Wayne for feeding, a three position safety, a single stage trigger, coating, and a thorough check up; I think I like the CZ better than the DR. Might like it as well as my M-70 in 416 Rem. I'll know for sure when I get all three sorted out.

Speaking of sorting out, I had always assumed that the reason one gets a Lott is to shoot 500 grainers at 2300 fps. But why not 450 grain TSXs at 2400? Or even 2300? Tests with CEB's have shown us larger bore mono-metal bullets do very well at lighter than classic weights for caliber. Results with Barnes TSX and TTSX--including my own limited sample size results, have shown that for years with smaller calibers.

So is there any real advantage to the 500 TSX over the 450? If a 450 will go lengthwise through a buffalo, what does the 500 grainer offer?

More recoil? Try some 450 gr Northforks - long bullets in solid form.

I use Barnes TSX 500 grain in my 460 Weatherby, they shoot to same point of aim as other 500 grain bullets. The 450's didn't.

M

Yes because people want to buy them and a 500gr bullets has been the standard in 458 for a long time.

I see no reason to choose a 500 TSX over a 450 grain TSX. The added speed is always a plus and penetration aplenty.

Barnes doesn't make at 450gr or 500gr TTSX. At least, such isn't listed in their #4 manual or on their website.

But what is this about... bragging rights? If so, then I get 2300+ fps from the 450gr A-Frame from my lowly Ruger #1 in .45-70 with a 0.30" longer throat. It's only 38 and 1/4" long and weighs a mere 8.4 lbs.

By the way, I'm also an INTJ. Was born that way 82 years ago and know a thing or two about bragging rights!

But go ahead anyway... and get 2400 fps from the 450 TTSX... ooops! that is the 450 TSX. It should be doable. Sounds like a nice rig.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Whooeee...you must REALLY luv to get slapped around...There are always custom bullet makers and throaters make for some very tasty velocities without going to a larger/longer case...just a few silly millimeters is all that is needed.

Yeah...braggin' rights or pot stirrers or...not sure I like a bullet that goes sideways tho'...and/or just something to whizz on your boots. for little or no reason.

I'm glad I have a choice of what to feed my menagerie...every beast seems to like a different thing to chew on.


Hey...there ain't NUTT'N lowly about the R#1 OR the 45-70 IF you know a thing or 14 about this reloading thingy...say Hallelujah.

LUCK

So it seems the only valid reason to use a 500 TSX is if you need it to print to the same POI as the solid?

Trick question or one to settle a bet or prove a point?????

WAY too small a sampling to base a determination on.

And what about all those that choose NOT to answer or those that use the 500 gr that also DON'T bother with A.R.

I won't get into a protracted argument over what is basically personal choice...TXS's are basically a solid aren't they...a monometal projectile and/or act like one many times. I've shot enough Barnes bullets to see how they react in just about all the calibers up to 50 cal...and have taken a few head of non-dangerous game in mostly the middle cals, but I'm a cheap bastid and they are too rich for my blood as there are just a ton of cheap cup and core and cast that I've killed most N.A game with...I bow to those that do DG and let them pick THEIR favorite bullet and don't comment on their choices.

AS far as hunting goes, that gets into all that other very deep pile of BS and is, again, personal bias/choice. I use what my rifles like best as far as that nebulous accuracy vs energy curve goes. While 50 gr more weight CAN mean a large difference in down range energy, it also directly depends on velocity and all that other happy Horse shite over SD, point profile, BC, bullet construction etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

I shoot what bullet I want with respect to researching the bullets parameters and WHAT I'm SHOOTING at and pay only a modicum of attention to what the crowd thinks/says excepting those with REAL experience and what experience I have in/on my range sandbox and hunting...there has NEVER been, nor will there EVER be a perfect bullet for all game.

The question about whether a "solid" or a "soft" hits the same POI can best be addressed on the range and the reloading bench...it's a fairly simple matter to find bullets and load combo's that do exactly that...no different that sight adjustment or barrel/load regulation...you just have to take/make the time to do it.

I think you are expert enough to make YOUR OWN CHOICE as to what bullet/weight to use and develop the required loads...why bother with extraneous, questionable, unknown factors?

LUCK

quote:

Trick question or one to settle a bet or prove a point?????

WAY too small a sampling to base a determination on.

And what about all those that choose NOT to answer or those that use the 500 gr that also DON'T bother with A.R.

Why are you assuming AR is the only place I have researched? Why are you assuming this thread is the only place on AR I have looked?

And yes, I don’t need any help, but it is stupid to not seek out the experience of others. If people
are not interested in this discussion, I get it. I stay out if a LOT of threads where I have very useful experience because I am not interested in getting involved. Often, threads turn into a debate on irrelevant stuff-—like has happened here—-as opposed to useful discussion of the topic at hand.

So, in short, never mind. I won’t waste my time asking any more questions. There is just too much bullshit to wade through on AR—and likely all Internet forums—to find useful info anymore. Things were better before the Internet.........

I'm shooting the CEB 450 gr solid with the matching 420 Gr Raptor (hollow point) in my .458 Lott. That is a very lethal combination, IMHO. More velocity, and the Raptors love the velocity. The giraffe I took this year was literally rocked backwards with the chest shot and only ended up going about 30 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

So is there any real advantage to the 500 TSX over the 450? If a 450 will go lengthwise through a buffalo, what does the 500 grainer offer?

If all else was equal such as expansion, bullet stability and whatever else then the 500 grainer would retain its velocity better while travelling through the animal and while impact velocity would be lower with the 500 grainer after some penetration the 500 grainer would be travelling through the animal at higher velocity. Perhaps the difference in velocity might be a fair bit on a rear end shot in terms of the velocity the 500 and 450 grainer enter the chest cavity after a rear end shot.

However, with all the variables you would need to shoot a lot of buffalo to see any difference show up.

The buff I shot with 450 grainers out of my Lott year before last died just fine.

I think the 450 grain is just perfect out of the Lott and great for the Win mag.

.

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...just wondered why the observation...and gave an observation.

If you're not receptive to opposite or differing opinions then it is better NOT to ask questions...and YES this forum can get a bit touchy at times, but even the BS is good for something even if it's only to grow flowers.

LUCK

If Im going to shoot elephant, Buffalo or Hippo with any bullet it will be a 500 gr....Just speaking for myself..The 450 should be OK as one can usually drop down one bullet weight with a monolithic bullet..but not a practice I will adhere to..My favorite bullet for buffalo, Lion and for a heart shot on elephant is the 550 gr. Woodleigh soft and a 500 gr. solid follow..

I preferred the 450gr in my Lott. Much more room for powder and they will do all that needs doing on any buffalo, lion or large plains game. I stuck with them when I built my 450 Dakota, pushing them an easy 2400fps. That rig makes buffalo real sick, real fast! If I were using lead core bullets I’d use the 500gr weight, but with the Barnes there is no reason to.

John S,
Good to see you are still kickin'.

I agree the monometal (brass or copper) 450-grainer is tops in anything from .458 Win.Mag. through 460 Wby.Mag.

The only good reason I see for the 500-grain TSX is to allow the .458 Win.Mag. to beat a .458 Lott in the CZ 550 Magnum with 3.8" box length,
when limited to the 5 cannelures/grooves on that bullet for crimped ammo,
and not allowed to trim the .458 Lott any shorter than 2.790" brass length.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, I watch the forums quite a lot but rarely feel the need to post on most topics. I still feel the 500gr TSX isn’t necessary or even practical in the H&H case, but if one wants to use it then go right ahead! I don’t think it can be driven fast enough to expand properly unless a Rigby sized case is used.