Well I had it in my head that I wanted a M70 Super Grade and then I went to a big bore shoot this past weekend in Phoenix. Of the various .400's I shot, the .404 Jeffery was my favorite. And after following the .404 Jeffery history thread, I'm just that much more taken with this caliber.

But as you know it's either a custom or a CZ550 Magnum Express. If I went custom it would probably be with AHR, but we're talking some bigger $$$. So, the other option is to go with the CZ550 and perhaps have Wayne work it over a bit. This would run a lot less money.

So for those of you who own or have owned the CZ in this caliber what do you think of it?

Any good gunsmith can build a .404J. Here is a mate of mine's build on a BRNO 602 (father of the CZ). You can save a lot by eliminating things like fancy wood and quarter ribs etc..


http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=1#Post150089

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post161312

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...arch=true#Post186109

Shop around.

I have a CZ Safari Classic in 404 that I purchased from another AR member. It is a perfectly adequate hunting rifle right out of the box if the CZ stock, trigger and safety meets with your tastes. Even though one bolt lug did not touch, the rifle would shoot under 1 MOA. It also had the sometimes noted scope ring /base elevation problem that most likely results from the CZ heat treating process. I was able to address this issue by using a scope with a lot of elevation capability.

All of that said, the above rifle is currently at AHR shop for a CZ #3 package.

What advice would I give to someone contemplating a 404 J today? Have an experienced builder put one together for you using either a CZ or Winchester action. I think the budget route might be to start with a model 70 in 416 Remington and change the barrel out. The ultra-buget route is just buy the winchester in 416 remington and load it at Jeff velocities.

The 404J is on ly available in the higher-end CZ line, so it would cost you $2,700 or so for the rifle. Then when you add Wayne's work, it starts to approach what AHR would charge for a custom 404J on a 550 CZ action, plus you'd get a lot better-looking rifle.

Here's an Idea that builds on a previous suggestion. Go the model 70 route if you want to stay under 2k. Find an express length mod 70 (ie a RUM,STW, Weatherby Donor) rebarrel work on the feeding and have fun. You could also save a bundle and go with a Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby load at Jeffery Velocity and you wouldn't know the difference. You can pick one up for $1200 today if you look a little bit.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The 404J is on ly available in the higher-end CZ line, so it would cost you $2,700 or so for the rifle. Then when you add Wayne's work, it starts to approach what AHR would charge for a custom 404J on a 550 CZ action, plus you'd get a lot better-looking rifle.

And I would assume Wayne would ensure you don't experience the problem of the CZ's shooting low, correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Here's an Idea that builds on a previous suggestion. Go the model 70 route if you want to stay under 2k. Find an express length mod 70 (ie a RUM,STW, Weatherby Donor) rebarrel work on the feeding and have fun. You could also save a bundle and go with a Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby load at Jeffery Velocity and you wouldn't know the difference. You can pick one up for $1200 today if you look a little bit.

Brad

Yeah, I know the rebarreling/chambering is a possibility. I've never done that type of project and perhaps because of my lack of experience I'm hesistant to do that. It just seems like with all of the variables, there's a higher probability of something not working out correctly.

The 416 Rigby idea may be what is best for the budget. I shot this caliber also and while it had noticeably more recoil, it wasn't punishing to me.

quote:

And I would assume Wayne would ensure you don't experience the problem of the CZ's shooting low, correct?

Wayne makes them right, as many here will attest.

To your question on the CZ ring/scope elevation issue:

Wayne told me he will address the problem in my rifle

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Here's an Idea that builds on a previous suggestion. Go the model 70 route if you want to stay under 2k. Find an express length mod 70 (ie a RUM,STW, Weatherby Donor) rebarrel work on the feeding and have fun. You could also save a bundle and go with a Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby load at Jeffery Velocity and you wouldn't know the difference. You can pick one up for $1200 today if you look a little bit.

Brad

Yeah, I know the rebarreling/chambering is a possibility. I've never done that type of project and perhaps because of my lack of experience I'm hesistant to do that. It just seems like with all of the variables, there's a higher probability of something not working out correctly.

The 416 Rigby idea may be what is best for the budget. I shot this caliber also and while it had noticeably more recoil, it wasn't punishing to me.

I sent my 300RUM action off to PacNor, then had a smith atatch new scope mounts and scope, iron sights, rechannel stock for new barrell. Took it out and started working up loads. Didn't have any feeding issues.

7mmnut:

I almost went the route I suggested to you earlier. I had a great gunsmith lined up to do the rebarrel on a 375H&H into 404 Jeffery. I have owned and fired over a dozen Big Bore rifles up to and including my 500 Jeffery RSM. I have like them all for different reasons However, I find the 416 Rigby fits and shoots great. If I could buy one in 404 Jeffery like they had originally advertised I would have but for what your looking for you'll have to reload for any how at least if you want to shoot it often. Start with the Rigby get it loaded down to say 2250 fps and its a pussy cat then once you get comfortable goose it up to 2500fps and let it roar. I find my well used 416 RSM Rigby is my go to gun for everything from deer on up since I can trust it and shoot it well. Do yourself a favor and at least try a Ruger RSM not the most pretty girl at the ballroom but she won't let you down.

Have Fun Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
7mmnut:

I almost went the route I suggested to you earlier. I had a great gunsmith lined up to do the rebarrel on a 375H&H into 404 Jeffery. I have owned and fired over a dozen Big Bore rifles up to and including my 500 Jeffery RSM. I have like them all for different reasons However, I find the 416 Rigby fits and shoots great. If I could buy one in 404 Jeffery like they had originally advertised I would have but for what your looking for you'll have to reload for any how at least if you want to shoot it often. Start with the Rigby get it loaded down to say 2250 fps and its a pussy cat then once you get comfortable goose it up to 2500fps and let it roar. I find my well used 416 RSM Rigby is my go to gun for everything from deer on up since I can trust it and shoot it well. Do yourself a favor and at least try a Ruger RSM not the most pretty girl at the ballroom but she won't let you down.

Have Fun Brad

I saw a RSM on gunbroker in 416 Rigby, NIB for like $1900 I think. I dont think I've seen one or if I did, I didn't know it. Not too worried about pretty. One of my guns is a Tikka T3 which is proof enough of that. Ultimately for me, pretty is as pretty does. I appreciate a nice stock, but it can be butt ugly and if it's reliable and accurate that's what matters most.

More things to think about....

Is there a thread on AR that addresses the scope mounting issue. I had the same problem on mine and after 3 smiths looked it over and scratched their heads, I just replaced the scope with one that had more elevation adjustment. Would like to read more about it however if someone could steer me in the right direction.

Thanks.

Regular CZ Safari Magnums use to be available from the custom shop in .404 Jeffery upon request. They were priced more then a shelf model but a lot less then the fancy custom ones.

All you need to do is go to Cabelas and in the gun library search '404'. I think they have exactly what you need. Damn good price, just my opine.

Those sale prices are good, just about what I was quoted for a basic .404J "American" without a barrel sling swivel.

7MMNut:

I had a CZ 404. Darn nice gun. However, I sold it and bought a CZ .416 Rigby with a laminated stock really cheap. Sent it to Wayne and he did his 1,2,3. Now I have a superb .416 with the right LOP and you should see the wood. Got $200 for the laminated stock. Just my two cents.

I have a CZ safari classic in 404J. I did not need to have any work done on it. Keep in mind the safari classic is put together by their custom shop in the US and costs more than their standard 550's.

Rem 700 SPS in 300Ulta Mag at $571 online, crom-moly barrel chamberd and fitted at Pac-Nor $560 and barrel matt blued for about $100.

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
I have a CZ safari classic in 404J. I did not need to have any work done on it. Keep in mind the safari classic is put together by their custom shop in the US and costs more than their standard 550's.

So have the guns coming out of the custom shop experienced the shooting low issue? Or do they as part of the higher price make sure this doesn't happen.

Paying $2K or more for a gun and have to either have it fixed or choose a different scope is not something I'd be very happy about.

The USA CZ Custom shop will take care of you. I would prefer an AHR rifle but, they offer a good alternative.

Remember that you get what you pay for so, set your expectations appropriately and order one. I'm sure the CZ custom shop could match what AHR does but, why? They have their own place in the market and are a good option for many.

Do you want a ~$1K entry level factory rifle, a ~$2-3K CZ USA custom or, a full house custom?

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
The USA CZ Custom shop will take care of you. I would prefer an AHR rifle but, they offer a good alternative.

Remember that you get what you pay for so, set your expectations appropriately and order one. I'm sure the CZ custom shop could match what AHR does but, why? They have their own place in the market and are a good option for many.

Do you want a ~$1K entry level factory rifle, a ~$2-3K CZ USA custom or, a full house custom?

If I could have a M70 from Winchester's factory in 404, this thread would not have ever occurred. I have one in .375HH and am no less than thrilled. It works great and is as accurate a rifle I've ever had. Basic stock? Yup, but that's just not that important to me. In fact in some respects I'd rather have what some may call an ugly stock, it doesn't hurt so bad when it gets hunting scars.

I'd love to have the AHR, but that money can be used for trophy fees instead. I guess I've answered my own question.

I think everyone on this forum has been where you are going back and forth. Maybe a better question to ask is the one I'm dealing with which is if I had to lean my collection down to only a very few rifles (for me 3 centerfire hunting rifles) which three would I keep. When you do this cost is less of a problem hence how I ended up with a Searcy Double that I shouldn't have bought but is the crown jewel in my safe right now. As far as my own three its EASY the Searcy DR 450-400, The Ruger RSM 416 Rigby but the third rifle is a B&%CH to pick (7mm mag, 300 weatherby, 300 RUM, 9.3 RUM, 375 H&H or 500 Jeffery) Its always easier to add to ones collection than substract however, if you really want a nice 404 Jeffery just get the best one you can find and kick off ALL the other stuff gathering dust.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
I think everyone on this forum has been where you are going back and forth. Maybe a better question to ask is the one I'm dealing with which is if I had to lean my collection down to only a very few rifles (for me 3 centerfire hunting rifles) which three would I keep. When you do this cost is less of a problem hence how I ended up with a Searcy Double that I shouldn't have bought but is the crown jewel in my safe right now. As far as my own three its EASY the Searcy DR 450-400, The Ruger RSM 416 Rigby but the third rifle is a B&%CH to pick (7mm mag, 300 weatherby, 300 RUM, 9.3 RUM, 375 H&H or 500 Jeffery) Its always easier to add to ones collection than substract however, if you really want a nice 404 Jeffery just get the best one you can find and kick off ALL the other stuff gathering dust.

Brad

I'm kind of in that mode already. My list includes:

Tikka T3 in .223 - I intended for that gun to be a coyote gun. But I can never find time to go hunting for them. It's a very accurate gun, but perhaps it's time for it to go.

Win M70 in .270 - Love it too, never use it anymore.

Win M70 in 7mm - This gun has been used for everything short of bears. It will only leave my hands when pryed from the cold dead fingers.

Tikka T3 in .300WM - Kind of hard thing here. Very accurate and a joy to carry. I bought it only because Winchester was on one of it's absences from the market. Took it to Africa for my first trip so there's a few memories wrapped up in it. I also bought it after buying into the idea that a 7mm might not be enough gun for Africa. Short of Eland (and perhaps not even then) I'm not buying that anymore.

Win M70 in .375HH - Nothing killed with it yet, but put it in the same category as the 7mm and the cold dead fingers thing. It's not going anywhere.

I like the idea of having two rifles similar in caliber, one to back up the other in case of failure at inopportune times. You know like two weeks before leaving for Africa. Thus the idea of having a second DG rifle. There's always the opportunity to use/rent an outfitter's rifle, but I guess I just like having my own. It's part of the experience for me.

I think I could put a decent dent in the cost of a new CZ by selling off the .223 and .270.

AMEN Brother (7MMNut)

221 FB - Coyote Gun - Gone soon

243 win 742 Just wanted it - Gone soon

7mm Ruger Express (Might Keep it to match 416 RSM also killed a big deer with it)

325 WSM Kimber - Gone

300 RUM & 300 Weatherby Win 70 Classics ???
375 H&H Kimber 89 BGR ???
458 Lott RSM - Gone
500 Jeffery (Real tough one...??? might just hind it in a friends safe)

See I'm in the same boat picked up too many rifles while virtual hunting in my mind at work. Boy it would be nice to have some room in my safe to find the guns I really like to shoot and get out to the range. Once I get some time I'll be sending some guns to the Classifed area.

Thanks for the Motivation

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

If I could have a M70 from Winchester's factory in 404, this thread would not have ever occurred. I have one in .375HH and am no less than thrilled. It works great and is as accurate a rifle I've ever had. Basic stock? Yup, but that's just not that important to me. In fact in some respects I'd rather have what some may call an ugly stock, it doesn't hurt so bad when it gets hunting scars.

I'd love to have the AHR, but that money can be used for trophy fees instead. I guess I've answered my own question.

Why don't you get another Winchester and have it rebarreled and reworked?

I hear you on the trophy fees. I don't see a Safari in the near term so, I'm enjoying my Double Rifle purchases. If things turn around, I will take my Doubles to Africa. If I find I need/want more trophy fee money I can always sell them or some other stuff I have. Right now I'd rather drive a well used pickup and have have a lot of nice rifles versus having a nice pickup and a few bolt actions. The nice rifles will out last me and my heirs and the pickup or nice car .... well I'm averaging about 4 years with people totalling them with no insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

If I could have a M70 from Winchester's factory in 404, this thread would not have ever occurred. I have one in .375HH and am no less than thrilled. It works great and is as accurate a rifle I've ever had. Basic stock? Yup, but that's just not that important to me. In fact in some respects I'd rather have what some may call an ugly stock, it doesn't hurt so bad when it gets hunting scars.

I'd love to have the AHR, but that money can be used for trophy fees instead. I guess I've answered my own question.

Why don't you get another Winchester and have it rebarreled and reworked?

I hear you on the trophy fees. I don't see a Safari in the near term so, I'm enjoying my Double Rifle purchases. If things turn around, I will take my Doubles to Africa. If I find I need/want more trophy fee money I can always sell them or some other stuff I have. Right now I'd rather drive a well used pickup and have have a lot of nice rifles versus having a nice pickup and a few bolt actions. The nice rifles will out last me and my heirs and the pickup or nice car .... well I'm averaging about 4 years with people totalling them with no insurance.

That's a thought too. But it goes back to my concern with messing too much with a rifle. I've never done it and I frequently read about such operations ending in disaster.

As an owner of a HarleyDavidson and continuously tinkering with them to make them 'better', I know a little about such projects ending not quite as anticipated.

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

That's a thought too. But it goes back to my concern with messing too much with a rifle. I've never done it and I frequently read about such operations ending in disaster.

As an owner of a HarleyDavidson and continuously tinkering with them to make them 'better', I know a little about such projects ending not quite as anticipated.

Tinkering with a Harley or Kawasaki Enduro myself is fundamentally different then having a rifle rebuilt by a qualified gunsmith. If you are talking about a truely bespoke custom bolt action rifle then all bets are off. If you are just going to rebarrel and possibly restock there isn't much risk if you stick to known gunsmiths.

In my case, $450 for a donor rifle, $550 for a barrel and installation, and a new stock for $550 left me satisfied.

We had a .404 in the CZ redone by Vedo Buehler a year or so ago to turn it into a custom. The results were amazing, at a resonable price. Well worth the money.

I just put together a working .404 Jeffeys..

I purchased a Rem 30-S in 25-06, that had a simi custom wood stock that was done very well indeed with awesome checkering, then I had my first rebore done in 404 Jefferys. Dennis Olson rebuilt the box and did the rail work etc. and it holds 3 down, and will hold 4 but its tight with 4. It shoots fantastic and it handles recoil better than most 404s that I have shot. I intend to have Roy Vincent build me a 1/4 inch steel floorplate then cut it out inside, add a stronger longer follower spring and presto 4 down and one up, maybe 5 down, who knows? We are still in the planning stage on that one and since he is off to Africa until November so I will just play with it as is until his return.

I have had the gun for sale, but after adding a quarter rib, barrel band sights, barrel band swivels, a Talley bolt handle and a 3X Leupold scope in very low Weaver bases, and low Weaver rings it sits right down on the receiver and and the comb is perfect for scope or irons and I love that old Enfield safety, its silent and smooth and you can't miss it with your thumb.

This rifle is screaming for a custom stock in Russian Circssian wood so that will probably be my next project after Roy and I build three more rifles for a client and friend..Roy does the metal and I'm doing the wood. Roy does super metal work btw. His gun work compares to his PHing ability and that is no slight praise.

I like these Enfields when done right.

Thanks for being patient with a big bore newbie, I appreciate all of your replies. It has given me much to think about which in the end is one of the purposes of the forum

quote:

We had a .404 in the CZ redone by Vedo Buehle

Reto Buehler did a CZ 550? I'm surprized...Reto is one of the better gunsmiths these days...I didn't think he'd have the time to do a CZ.

[I love that old Enfield safety, its silent and smooth and you can't miss it with your thumb.

Must agree....

I like these Enfields when done right.[/QUOTE]

My brother built a 404 on a BSA P14 for my 60th a few years ago and it is my favorite rifle.
Its a wee touch heavy, but a dream to shoot and a tackdriver with all bullet weights.

I built mine on a Rem 700 Ultramag action. Used a 25" Chick Donnely barrel. Opened the bolt 3 thousandths and polished the extractor. Total investment: Rem 700 - $550; Barrel;- $275; Smith work - $450 = $1275. I probably should have bought a CZ, but now I have a one of a kind custom. Good shooter and easy on the shoulder.

Geez, PB, where did you find one of Chick's barrels for $275? I miss that guy.