Coming soon:

Loading data for these bullets utilizing RL-15 and Varget powder.

D Hunter may be first.
I got my rifle back yesterday (10" twist 24" long McGowen stainless) with H&H Moon Bead front sight by NECG (banded and hooded and matte blued), but it is raining at the range today.

The sun may be out soon. Until then ...

What a great one gun Safari concept.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
What a great one gun Safari concept.

D Hunter is getting over 2700 fps (24" barrel) with RL-15 and the African sheep bullet: .423cal/340gr North Fork Semi-Spitzer Soft Point.

That SD is 0.271 so it is like a .30-06 on steroids. Almost twice a 180 grain .308. No hyper velocity, just GOOD velocity that a North Fork can handle.

I hope he doesn't mind me begging him to post results here. I will be trying his loads with RL-15 plus my loads with Varget next weekend.

This is a bit of a wildcatting job trying to decide on how to load this rascal. Let me go through my thought process and you guys tell me if I am thinking about this right or if I am about to blow myself up! I have not much load data for the 404. None for this bullet weight. SO I tried to figure a comparable case. I would like to err on the side of safety. The 416 Remington was the round that matched most closely with the data I had. The 404 has a slightly larger case capacity(though this has been hotly debated recently, most agree that the 404 is a bit larger), this should be on the side of safety. The bullet of comparison was the Barnes 350 gr Barnes bullet compared to the 340 for the NF. Again err on the safe side a bit on weight. The Barnes copper bullet tends to be a bit sticky and is usually loaded down a few grains on this extra friction account. The NF with the grooves should give less surface area and less pressure. Again err toward safety. With all these considerations I figured I could load at least as warm as the Barnes manual says and maybe add a grain. I will post my loads and velocities with the usual disclaimer that all guns are indivduals and these loads may not be safe in your rifle. The book used Re 15 loads from 79 to 84 grains. With the 340 gr NF I loaded 78 gr avg 2520fps less than half inch group, 80gr 2555fps an inch and 3/4, 82 gr 2601 and an inch and a half, 83 gr 2634 fps and an inch and a half, 84 gr 2701 fps an inch and a half, 85gr 2713 fps and about 3 and a half inches. No pressure signs of any kind in my rifle.
With these numbers I am of the opinion that this is about tops with this cartridge as the increase in velocity is minimal at the 84-85gr point and the group opens up. I could have pulled the one shot on the last group so it may not be as I think it is. Further thoughts on the subject. Logic tells me these are likely safe loads with the possible exception of the 85 gr load in modern rifles. I wouldn't try these in older rifles that had not had the barrel slugged as some are smaller. Firing these loads in an undersized barrel could be a recipe for disaster. I am considering the 78 gr load with it's very accurate performance even though it is not as fast as some of the other loads. The recoil was quite mild and in the 2700 fps loads the recoil was significant. Even at it's mildest loading we are talking about a premium 340 gr bullet at 2520 fps which is more weight and frontal area than the time tested 375 300 gr offering at similar velocity. I plan to load the 84 gr and the 78 gr load and try them at 200 and 300 yards and this may help me with my decision making process of which load to use. If any of you guys want to try this bullet we will have to keep after Mike Brady to make us up another run as it is a special order for him. He will want an order of a fair size before he will take the time to reset his machines as is understandable. Good hunting.

D, your logic is sound. I have tried 80grRL15 under the 350gr Woodleigh for 2457fps from my 23"bbl. Accuracy was just over 1" (about all I can do w/ a 5x scope & the recoil) & recoil was tolerable. I also trid VV150 w/ very sim. results, same charge weight. The #5 Hornady manual has .416Dakota data & they favor slower powders for the 400gr. I have also had better results w/ RL19 & 4831 under the 380gr bullets but RL15, VV150 maybe Varget (haven't tried it yet) look about right for the 340-350gr. You & RIP keep us posted. I am still waiting for my 340gr, but I'm not in any real hurry, no Africa trip this year.

I'll try the Varget and get back. Hope to find an accurate 2700 fps load. That is all I want out of a sheep rifle that could be switched to heavier bullets for Mbogo.

I know that bullet will break the shoulder on a Bison and penitrate to the skin behind the ham, perfectly expanded...

Ray do you have this same 340 gr SP bullet? If so please let us know your loading info. The bullets are limited in number and we really don't want to waste any more than necessary on blind alleys of load development. THanks, "D"

DH, work up a good load w/ the 350gr Woodleigh & then sub the 340grNF. At least you'll have a good ref. load to start w/ & save those precious 340grNFs!

I have not used that bullet, I used the 380 gr. with the same load data that I use for the 400 gr. bullet...

However, I sent Bill Dowtin Bison hunting and he used that load in his 404 at 2600 plus...It punched the shoulder, broke it and came to rest in the ham under the skin perfectly fully expanded..Sounds like a heck of a bullet, but I have come to expect perfection from Northforks in whatever I use them in...

If I were shooting that 340 gr. bullet then I would problably use about 95 grs. of IMR-4831 or a big old dose of RL-15...

I loaded some 404s for a client and he shot a couple of buffalo a few years back with the 350 Barnes X and 95 grs. of IMR-4831 and it sure did work for him...That is his standard load, but the bullet was discontinued..I wish I hadn't sold all mine to RIP, as they would have been a great bullet in my 10.75x68..

Finally a brief break in the weather to dash to the range and rip off my starting Varget loads with the .423/340gr sheep bullet.
5 rounds for each powder charge: average velocity, and best 3 shots of the 5 shot group measured, 100 yards, and chronograph 15 feet from the muzzle.

Temperature: 40 degrees F
No wind, dead calm!

Rifle: M70 with 24" McGowen stainless 10" twist No.5 contour barrel.

Scope: Leupold 2.5X-8X set on 8X

Brass: Norma
Primer: Federal GM215M
Powder: Hodgdon's Varget Extreme
COL: 3.554"
Bullet: North Fork .423/340gr Sheep Bullet

85 gr. >>> 2622 fps >>> 1.123"
86 gr. >>> 2654 fps >>> 1.268"
87 gr. >>> 2683 fps >>> 0.711"
88 gr. >>> 2709 fps >>> 0.775"
89 gr. >>> 2740 fps >>> 0.858"
90 gr. >>> 2768 fps >>> 0.664"

Highest Sd was 18 fps. Lowest Sd was 6 fps, for the 5-shot groups.

No XS pressure signs, even with the max load.

I like the 88 grain load best. For hot weather I would choose the 87 grain load. Velocity will probably increase 0.5 fps for each degree F of temperature increase, and that is as good as it gets. Varget is great in the .404 Jeffery for both the 380 grain and 340 grain North Forks.

83 grains of Varget moves the 380 grain North Fork SP along at 2532 fps at 83 degrees F, and no XS pressure signs.

For barrel length differences, add or subtract 25 fps per inch difference, I reckon.

90 grains of Varget is 100% loading density, the shake and rattle stops there, with the 340 grainer seated to and crimped on the first groove of the bullet. The base of the bullet lines up right at the neck-shoulder juntion. Well designed bullet it is for the .404 Jeffery, and with sectional density of 0.271, it is like a .30-06 on steroids. Excellent sheep bullet.

My throat is zero freebore, just the standard CIP leade.

However, my barrel may not be as tight as the Lothar Walther, but it works very well. LW barreled rifles will likely need less Varget, and get similar pressures and velocities with lesser powder than my McGowen.

Next I need to load up a bunch of the 340 grain Sheep Bullets and try them at 200 yards and 300 yards to see what the drop is like, and see if I can get some real accuracy with some benchrest style shooting.

With Varget and North Forks, I think I have all the data I need now.

The .404 Jeffery is a sweet shooter.
Thanks, Ray.

BTT, this is cogent to the .404 Jeffery twist rate thread.

Thanks for sharing RIP. Just curious though why you are settling on the 87gr load if the 90gr loas is faster & appears to be more accurate? When I get some 340grNF I'll have to give the Varget a try alongside RL15 & see which has the accuracy edge.

Fred,
It is nagging doubts about pressure.
Note that I said 88 grains was to my liking ... but 87 grains would be for ambient temperatures around 100 degrees F.

Maybe I will just load 87.5 grains of Varget and no worries.

87.5 grains would interpolate to a velocity of 2696 fps at 40 degrees F.

Estimated change of 1/2 fps with each degree F.

So at 48 degrees F or higher, the velocity would be 2700 fps or higher, with the 87.5 grain charge.

2700 fps with the 340 grainer is what I had in mind, that is all. Sort of like the all-around .30-06 180 grain bullet load, only more.

I just reloaded 25 more rounds with 87.6 grains of Varget Extreme.

The rationale is that I have been to 90 grains with no problems at 40 degrees F. If I have reduced this charge by 2.4 grains, I am sure to have no problems anywhere, anytime of year, what?

Ray Atkinson says he does similar prudent things as this, what?

Sure, 88 grains is no big difference from 87.6 grains, what?

It just allows me to say more precisely that this is just over 2700 fps at 50 degrees F, and at 100 degrees F, it will be about a 2730 fps load and be always trouble free in my rifle, what?

Excuse the "what?" It is a bad habit I picked up from Old Sarge, what?

quote:

I got my rifle back yesterday (10" twist

Where/how does one aquire Northfork bullets?

Mighty Joe,
Mike Brady is a swell guy who might make more of the .423/340gr bullet if he gets orders enough. This was a special run for several of us who bought them out.

Ray has related how one of his associates has killed a bison with a .423/340 SPS, single shot. I did the same with the .423/380 SPS.

SP stands for "Soft Point Semi-spitzer," I reckon, not "Sheep Projectile Special-edition."

Actually:
SS = the Soft point Semi-spitzer
FP = the Flat Point solid
CP = the Cup Point semi-solid

North Fork Tecnologies, Inc.
P.O. Box 1689
Glenrock, Wyoming 82637

Phone: 307-436-2726
Fax: 307-436-5780

email: northfork@vcn.com

web site: www.northforkbullets.com

Mike offers more bullets than the web site shows. Time for some updates there.

.

Alf,
Your data are obviously flawed, as a 90 grain charge of Varget is what it takes to fill up the case to 100% load density ... NOT 85 grains ... with the 340 grain grain Northfork seated and crimped on the first groove of the bullet ...

The bullet is about 1.254" long.
About 0.550" of the bullet shank is seated into the case.
The COL for loaded cartridge: 3.554"

Please adjust your case capacity/bullet length numbers so that 90 grains is a 100% density noncompressed load, no drop tube, with Varget Extreme, and the bullet length data above for the 340 grainer. It seems that my new brass, unfired was 114 grains of water, but will be slightly larger after fire forming. I used once fired brass.

Does your program have the latest data for Hodgdon powders? They have changed a lot in recent years.

I have not run any program ballistics for pressure lately. In the past, when I did this, the results were so far off from reality that I do not put much store in it.

How does your program take into account the grooved shank of the North Fork?

Can it take into account the differences between a Lothar Walther barrel and my "loose" McGowen barrel?

How about twist rates?

Your re-estimation of pressures would be appreciated. I would hope that I am less than 60,000 PSI.

90 grains and 2768 fps gave no pressure signs in my rifle.

If max individual pressure is allowed by CIP to be 53,411 CUP = 60,929 peizo psi, I think I am fine, especially with 88 grains or less of Varget Extreme.

Dunno for sure, but the 88 grain load seems mild to me.

.

ALF,
Thanks. I will have to break out AccuLoad and see what I get, and check D Hunter's RL-15 loads for comparison. He has a Lothar Walther 24" barrel. I have a McGowen 24" barrel.

Anyone else with a Lothar Walther barrel will of course start at a lower powder charge than I did, and work up carefully.

I may have a "loose barrel" and it works very well, but I do not want to be known as a "loose cannon."

Ron,

Those 340 grain .423 bullets have the same sectional density as 180 grain 30 calibre and the same as 400 grain .458.

The 460 will push the 400 grainers out at 2850 plus and that is the 460 with the Pendleton which in reality means about a 23.5 inch barrel.

But you are getting there

I think Nosler needs to be lobbied for some 400 grain 458 Ballistic Tips. Actually a 400 grain version of the 308 Speer 130 grain Hollow point would be nice.

Mike

.

ALF,
My check with AccuLoad yielded similar results to your data.

Accuload was also trying to tell me that 85 grains of Hodgdon's Varget was a 100% density load.

I have physically verified that 90 grains is a 100% load with this bullet in my Norma cases. It still shakes and rattles at 89 grains. At 90 grains it stops rattling when the cartridge is shaken beside my ear.

My unfired Norma brass had 114.6 grains of water capacity. My twice fired brass, not resized after the second firing, has 115.7 grains of water capacity, average for three cases: 115.8, 115.7, 115.6, on a digital scale, calibrated and properly zeroed.

AccuLoad also gives ridiculous results for the .375 Weatherby, the cartridge I know best of all.

These ballistic programs are worthless for pressure and velocity guesstimates. There are too many variables that they can only whistle in the dark about, and they ain't whistlin' "Dixie!"

For external ballistics/trajectories, they are good, but that is much simpler given a BC and a chronographed velocity. Simple by comparison.

I am convinced my loads are safe.

Primers look normal and are still tight in the pockets.

Case heads still measure 0.543" and I don't get into 1/10,000 inch measures, just 1/1000.

No brass extrusion marks on the case heads from the boltface ejector cut.

Uniform progression of velocity with powder charge over the 85 to 90 grain range of Varget with the 340 grainers: No surprises, no spikes of velocity nor failure to progress linearly.

Easy extraction: one-fingertip-ease of bolt lift and retraction of bolt.

AccuLoad or other programs do not take into account all the variables of rifle throats and lands and grooves, twists, etc., nor powder lot variation or maybe altogether new powder as with the new Extreme line by Hodgdon, which differs greatly from their old stuff. Nor does it account for differing bullets such as the grooved and banded bullets.

I am quite content that these are good and safe loads in my rifle:

.423/340grNF SS: Varget 88.0 grains : 2709 fps at 40 degrees F (100% load is 90 grains).

.423/380grNF SS: Varget 83.0 grains : 2528 fps at 83 degrees F (100% load is 85 grains).

.423/380grNF FP solid: Varget 83.0 grains : 2514 fps at 83 degrees F.

85 grains is the 100% load density with the longer bullet ... maybe the programs are hung up on the 400 grain old-fashioned bullet load density?

Anyone with a tighter barrel can burn less powder. Those ballistic programs don't know how to handle different barrels.

North Forks can sure handle the velocity well.

It would be interesting to see Saeed post all the .404 Jeffery data he has accumulated ... add it on to the limited info on the current Reloading Page for the .404 Jeffery.

Saeed loads his 405 grain Walterhog with several grains more Varget than I use with the 380 grain NF SS.

Of course, Saeed's bullet has very scant driving bands of top secret configuration.

Still, Saeed uses almost as much Varget with the 405 grain Walterhog as I use with the 340 grain North Fork.

I know the computer programs would really be bumfuzzled by the Walterhog!

Here we go ...

Saeed's loads with the 405 grain Walterhog in a 25.5" barrel, 14" twist Lothar Walther (and Saeed loaded them long with a COL = 3.680"):
********************************************
Varget 67.0 grains >>> 2078 fps
Varget 86.0 grains >>> 2591 fps
@70 degrees F assumed
********************************************


My Varget loads for 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP in 24" McGowen stainless barrel of 10" twist:
********************************************
Varget 80 grains >>> 2360 fps
Varget 81 grains >>> 2401 fps: BEST LOAD
Varget 84 grains >>> 2490 fps
78 degrees F
********************************************


And one more time for comparison, my same 24" barrel Varget loads for 340 gr NF SS:
********************************************
Varget 85 grains >>> 2622 fps
Varget 88 grains >>> 2709 fps: BEST LOAD
Varget 90 grains >>> 2768 fps
40 degrees F
********************************************


A BEST LOAD for 380 grain NF SS, my 24":
********************************************
Varget 83 grains >>> 2528 fps
@83 degrees F
********************************************

A BEST LOAD for 380 grain FP or CP solids, my 24":
********************************************
Varget 83 grains >>> 2514 fps
@83 degrees F
********************************************

The North Fork CP and FP have driving bands similar to the Walterhog. The North Fork soft (SS) is a grooved bullet, and a groovy bullet it is too!

For pressure testing by lawndart someday?

Consider Saeed's 405 grain Walterhog velocity of 2591 fps, shot in his airconditioned lair in Dubai, so it must have been 70 degrees F. Varget = 86 grains.

Correct this 25.5 inch barrel to 24" by 25fps/inch: 2591 - 37.5 = 2553.5 fps

Now take my 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP 2490 fps load with 84 grains of Varget, at 78 degrees F and 24" barrel, and correct it to 70 degrees by 0.5 fps/degree F: 2486 fps

Now add 30 fps per each grain of Varget charge increase. Increase my charge from 84 to 86 grains, and my load produces 2486 + 60 = 2544 fps.

Saeed: 2553.5 fps or 2554 fps
RIP: 2544 fps

Saeed and I are getting almost identical results, he with 14" twist and 405 grain Walterhog, and I with 10" twist and 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP.

What this means is that anyone out here with a modern .404 Jeffery rifle can duplicate this performance, whatever the barrel twist rate of their .423 grooves, whether Lothar Walther or McGowen:

Corrected to 70 degrees F, 24" barrel:
*********************************************

400 grain Woodleigh RNSP:
81 grains Varget
2397 fps
Mo = 137 lbs.ft.

*********************************************

380 grain North Fork Soft Point:
83 grains Varget
2521 fps
Mo = 137 lbs.ft.

*********************************************

340 grain North Fork Soft Point:
88 grains Varget
2726 fps
Mo = 132 lbs.ft.

*********************************************
The 380 grain Cup Point and Flat Point Solids will not be significantly different from the Soft Points of 380 grain weight. Only 14 fps slower and lower pressure, or about 2507 fps.
*********************************************

I can't wait until I can get the pressures actually tested and the world will know how mild these loads are.

AccuLoad and Quick Load are phoney baloney when it comes to pressures and velocities.

Any "looseness" of the McGowen Barrel vs. the Lothar Walther barrel is phoney baloney too. They are both .423" groove barrels nominally and close enough in reality.

Any low velocities I might have obtained with the IMR 4831 or H4831 were due to slow lots of powder. Powder lots do vary.

All .404 Jeffery shooters should consider Varget a top powder for 340 to 405 grain bullets.

In summary, using Varget Extreme, from 80 to 88 grains, the user of any modern, non-decrepit .404 Jeffery, with barrel of 24", can easily and safely get the following velocities with said bullets:

400 grain Woodleigh RNSP and FMJ >>> 2400 fps
380 grain North Fork SP/FP/CP >>> 2500 fps
340 grain North Fork SP >>> 2700 fps

Don't pay any attention to "Load from a Disk" or "AccuLoad" on this one. They are way off!

But of course start low and work up. Individual rifle and powder lot quirks are unpredictable. Proceed at your own risk, etc.

Varget and RL-15 are great powders, but is not the Varget less temperature sensitive?

Varget is tops, unless H4350 ... another thread to follow ... the .404 Jeffery will have to get in line behind the 470 NE and 450 Dakota that need trying with H4350 Extreme.

Saeed has already done the H4350 loads with the 405 Walterhog, and he got even better results with it than either RL-15 or Varget.

I doubt that H4350 would be better with 340 grainers than Varget.

H4350 might be better with 380 grainers than Varget.

H4350 IS BETTER than Varget with 405 grain Walterhogs, proven by Saeed.

For what it is worth (not much), AccuLoad did predict highest velocities with H4350 of the powders I checked for the 340 grain North Fork. But those velocities were far slower than reality checks show, so I won't quote those.

This does suggest that H4350 might give the higher velocities with lower pressure. My saga is not over until I try the H4350.

RIP, I have tried H4350 a bit w/ the 350gr & I would give it try. Accuracy & vel. are good.

Fred,
I thought I had it figured out with Varget, but Alf sprinkled on my parade, a fine mist that will soon dry.

RL-15 will be no better for pressures than Varget, maybe worse.

Accept the low velocity with a part-full shaker of RL-15 or Varget or get a full case of H4350 slightly compressed for high velocity???

The African Sheep Rifle needs high velocity, or bust!

The more carts. I reload for the more I like 90%+ loads. Accuracy / uniformity seems better.

Why don't you blokes just get a 416 Wby DGR and stop fucking about.

Reliable feeding with in line feed, varmint type velocities with lighter bullets.

Mike

Fred,
Heh, heh, Ray thinks I am headed for IMR-4831, recreating his wheel.

Actually H4350 is more temperature insensitive, more compact, and a little faster than IMR-4831. It should be able to do more than IMR-4831 without the heavy compression plus drop tube routine. I know MY lot of H4350 is up to it.

I have always had best luck when finding the 100% load that is pressure safe.

Varget is certainly in the 95% to 98% density range for top velocity loads, and very good all around except for the question of pressure.

Hopefully in recreating the wheel, I will not simply be proving that the .416 Rigby is the Ultimate African Sheep Rifle, since 350 grainers at +2700 fps raise no eyebrows there ...

However, this may all end up proving that 300 grain .375 bullets at +2700 fps is the best way to go for everything, as an African Sheep and Elephant Rifle ... Keep It Simple Stupid! ...which means:
.375 Wby
.375/404
.375 Lapua

And for Mike 375, instead of the KISS Principle, KALIFORNICATION Principle: .378 Wby dropbox Mark V DGR .

The .404 Jeffery with 340 grainer is just like an over-grown .30-06 with 180 grainer!

Of course H4350 would be the top powder for it!

Surely the .404 Jeffery in a modern rifle with modern brass and bullets can safely operate at .30-06 pressures and velocities for comparable SD bullets with H4350???

This is a foregone conclusion, a rhetorical question, even though Ray is the only one here who can remember pre-modern bullets.

Just ordered some new Norma .404 Jeffery brass.
I will save the first 100 cases for Varget and the second 100 for H4350 and see if the Varget cases show any wear and tear before the H4350 cases do.

You guys are going to drive me to a strain guage. Better go order one of those too.

RIP,

The brass is the best strain guage.

Consider that all the experts on the forum say that only 3 of the 9 lugs on a Wby are bearing and consider the thrashing Wbys will have had from the 30/378 and 378 loaders, then those two big lugs on the two lug actions should strength to spare. Unless Wby is using some special sort of steel


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
RIP,

The brass is the best strain guage.

Mike

Reload one case over and over with the Varget load and see how long it takes to make the primer pocket loose or cause incipient case head separation by feeler wire probe?

Midway doesn't sell the Oehler strain guage.

I don't like the idea of marring my rifles with strain guages, and just how reliable is it and how are the guages attached??? I forget ...