The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 505 gibbs hi pressure casesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
For those interested Mr Horneber E-mailed me and said his next lot will be finished in september, but didn't say who was the distributer. Good luck RNS | ||
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| one of us |
NICKUDU did you get my email about the 505/510 with military ball and 600 gr X bullets for hunting???????????? Are you looking at building something like that? I think I have posted it a couple of times here and no one has responded yet. Send me am email with what you are looking at. RNS | |||
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| one of us |
oops.510"/505 | |||
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| Moderator |
Sorry "RNS" - I only just now saw your post. My thought was no big deal really ... simply to neck up the Gibbs casing to .510", period. R.A.B. is correct in seeing these new stronger cases as a green light to proceed with the project but most of the affordable actions out there are marginal in regard to bolt diameter and the achievement of 100%functional reliability becomes problematic with this huge Gibbs casing. Next time out I'll go with the Jeffrey or that wildass .510 R.A.B. thing!  | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
I am curious so I hope someone can enlighten me. I understand that this posting is about high pressure 505 Gibbs brass. Can someone tell me what pressure standard 505 Gibbs brass can safely handle? Also, what is the difference between the old standard brass and the high pressure variety? Thanks, | ||
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| <txhunter> |
Not real sure what the pressure standards are for the old and new, but the high pressure brass was developed for the 408 CheTac. The web of the old design was beefed up a little so as to handle the higher pressures of modern cartridges. | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
I figured the web is what was reinforced. Does anyone know how much or just how the reinforcement personifies itself? Again thanks, | ||
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| one of us |
I believe that in reading about the new case it is 70,000 and I don,t remember if it is pri or copper units if you go to page 4 of this forum on 7-04 look for ????chey tec????? by RNS there is alot of information posted there withs csome links RNS | |||
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| one of us |
RNS, do you have loads for .510-.505 Gibbs with 700gr M2 ball? Mine is at the shootable stage, though the scope mounts may need more work. The first loads were 120gr of WC 872 and CCI 250 primer. About half of them hangfired (too much empty space in the case; have to use slower powder), and they all flattened the primers slightly. I've since reworked them with 125 gr of IMR 5010. I get to try those in November. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
SDS, Welcome to the best shooters' and hunters' site in the world! Why don't you tell us about the interesting rifle you have there. What kind of action, barrel, brake (?), and stock are you using? Is it a full length Gibbs case? Are you using standard Gibbs brass or the 408 Chey-Tac cases? ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
RAB, I'm, trying to build this as an experiment/budget big bore. The cheapest large bullets are the .510" military ball, so I just thought I'd see what was possible. I built it up with a P14 action (ears ground off, load/ejection port opened up, aftermarket trigger)), new .50 BMG M2 HB turned down to 1.375" and 32" long, no brake, world's cheapest Choate plastic stock, free floated (not a lot of fore-end left), extra lug on barrel just in case, and full-length Gibbs case (Bertram), and CH4D .505 Gibbs dies. CH4D sent me the dies, and said when I'm ready to say goodbye to them for a while, send them back and they'll open them up. Cartridge overall length is 4.71", so it's a single shot, and I load it by putting a round in the bolt face and stuffing the whole thing in. The rifle is overweight at 18-20 lbs, and it was nose-heavy until I put some weight in the butt. I can't load through the ejection port because the extractor won't snap over the rim. Maybe that can be fixed. Recoil is easier than my .338-.378. Chronograph and accuracy (if any) results will have to wait for the scope to be zeroed and safe loads. If it works I've got an English walnut Fajen varmint stock for it. Total current length is a little over 52". | |||
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| one of us |
SDS Glad to hear from you.I hope you keep us updated with info. I asked a friend to do some Quick loads for me for the 600 gr Barnes X from Arizona Ammo. I have not built a gun yet but I plan to next year. The loads he gave me are pretty impressive and I think that I will truly be a monster. I would like to hold out for one of the new monster actions that will feed that through the mag. What are the cases rated at as far as pressure goes. Who did the work on yours it sounds like a affordable way to build one and use it for testing. Good luck and we will be watching for updates. RNS | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
SDS, Sounds like you have got a great "Shop Mule" for your 510 Chey-Tac R&D project. The 408 boys went through the same process. You can one-up 'em by building a 10 pound  hunting rifle based on your cartridge, for the next project. They just turned theirs into a baby BMG of about 20 pounds for their final product.I love the .510 bore for the reasons of economy and variety in a lot of readily available bullets and barrels. Sounds like a great project, and a great rifle for 1000 yard plinking. Keep us informed of any new developments. The extractor just needs the proper bevel to snap over the case rim for push feeding the big ones in your CRF action. Do you have enough magazine space to CRF some hunting loads with the "light" 570-600 grain bullets?
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| one of us |
RNS, it never occurred to me that I should worry about the cases until I found this site, after I'd already fired it. I tried to find an e-mail address for Bruce (?) Bertram so I could ask him but failed. Now that I've fired it and accidentally got slightly flattened primers, I know the cases won't blow at least up to the 80000 psi. required to flatten the primers. The cases came out of the chamber with no resistance. I want to operate at 60000 psi or less, though without pressure data I'll never really know for sure. With my 32" barrel, I'm setting a speed limit of 2500-2550 fps. If I get to that, I stop, whether more seems possible or not. I hope I'm being conservative. Williamson Precision Gunsmithing (817-285-0064) put together my turned down barrel blank and my P14 receiver. I've given them about four jobs over the years, and they've always done good work at a reasonable price for me, with the exception of the .510-.505. When I first got it back, the scope mounts weren't quite right. They fixed it. The catch is, most any job takes 3-5 months (or longer), unless you're going hunting or in law enforcement. Then you bump to the head of the line. I've got a fast -twist .22-250 being built up over there right now. Obviously I've got a .510-.505 reamer. If you get your work done there, I'll run it over and you'll be $150 ahead. | |||
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| one of us |
I am haveing some real problems with Bertram brass in my 10.75x68, the least of which is a number of them had no flash hole and thats pretty exciting... The problem is Bertram is using old worn out and outdated equipment that produces brass with the consistency of lead... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
SDS I talked to Bruce bertram yesterday and he informed me that his brass will handle anything modern pressure 60,000 psi plus. I talked to him for quite a few minutes and from your posts it would appear that you have got some good brass from him and that what he has said is correct. His e-mail is bburtram@bigpond.com Since you have some good brass unlike Ray Atkinsons brass I was wondering if you looked at several cartridges based on the 460 weatherby case like the 50 peacekeeper from ssk industries and I believe they have loading information, 500 A square and there is loading information here in the reloading section, the other on I see posted all the time is the 510 RAB round maybe some of the guys could share that info. You could probably load up to the .510"/weatherby loads and go up from there. Good luck and keep us posted RNS | |||
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| one of us |
I have contacted Johannson and Huntington and they are going to handle the Hornber brass it appears...I get the impression that it is built tougher to last longer not to load hotter....I will be getting some 10.75x68 in about 6 months.... ------------------ | |||
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Moderator |
Ray, Will they also be importing Hornbear 500 Jeffrey brass? | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Ray, I have seen the Horneber brass for the 577 Tyrannosaur, before and after I fired some hot loads in Mitch's T.rex. Mitch is of the opinion that it is good stuff, and he should know, he has experience with it. It seems to be well made. I ordered some of the Bertram 585 Nyati basic brass, and was disappointed with it. It was very soft, thin, and had a large variation in case weight, with a lot of irregular flash holes and hanging "chad." It should be used only for low pressure loads of the old Nitro Express levels. You should be very happy with the Horneber stuff. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
RNS, thanks for catching up with Bruce Bertram. Now we can stop worrying about the brass. Mine goes bang and falls out of the chamber. I haven't reprimed any yet, so I can't say anything about the primer pockets loosening up. I think I would need a much stiffer load to test that anyway (see below). The interest in the .510-.505 gave me an acute case of itchytriggerfingeritis, so yesterday I went shooting in search of answers. The results: 1. The scope mounts are off by about 26MOA, so with the scope turned all the way to the right, at 100 yards it hits about 2" left. Back it goes to the gunsmith. Preliminary results suggest sub-MOA accuracy at 100 yards is likely. 2. I've got a safe load: CCI 250 primer and 125gr of IMR 5010 and 700gr M2 ball bullet seated to .10" off the lands (O.A.L. about 4.61"), produces a little over 1800 fps, for about 5000 foot-lbs. There's room for more powder, which should increase the velocity and reduce the standard deviation. It's likely that a faster powder would be required to get maximum performance out of the cartridge. I want a flatter trajectory, so we need more speed. 3. There were no hangfires. I was wondering if anybody who posts here knew about pressure excursions with hangfires. Here's my theory: the deficient ignition causes the bullet to be pushed forward to jam against the lands, where it stops, and the rising pressure causes the remainder of the powder to burn properly, but moving the bullet from a dead stop against the rifling causes an excessively high pressure spike, which in my case with the 120gr WC 872 loads caused the primers to flatten a little. In this case, more WC 872 to increase the loading density might ignite properly and actually show lower pressure. Any ideas? 4. I have to restock that rifle. I need more pull, and the plastic Choate stock doesn't really have a recoil pad. It looks like it does, but there's actually a hard plastic insert inside the "pad." I found this out a long time ago by cutting one open. My favorite pad is the Pachmayr F990 "Triple Magnum" pad, and that's going to help a bunch. I don't regret starting with this stock, because I could do shameless sloppy gunsmithing, which got me shooting faster. Now it's time to address its deficiencies. There's not much difference between this cartridge/bullet/rifle combination and the .505 Gibbs, save for about 2% more bullet cross-sectional area, reduced bearing surface with the spitzer boattail bulllet, and the longer barrel. That's where any increase in performance has to come from. So back in the beginning I searched for pressure-tested .505 Gibbs loads, preferably with 700 grain bullets. The only source I ever found was the A-Square reloading manual, and they limit their loads for .505 Gibbs to just 40000 piezo psi because that's the limit set by the regulating body. Certainly we should be able to beat the energy of any .510-.460 Weatherby based cartridge (.500 /.510 A-Square, Peacekeeper, Wells, etc.) with the larger volume of the .505 Gibbs case and modern pressures. I'm probably down for a few months. I'll get the mounts fixed, send off the dies to be opened up, and maybe restock (I'm a really slow woodworker) it when it comes back. Then I'll see what a maximum load does with IMR 5010, and then I'll switch powders if appropriate to get more velocity. I'm happy to have a safe load even if it's slow, though, because now I can share the fun with a good conscience. I hope all your projects are doing well. | |||
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| Moderator |
As I recall it was the August 98 issue of Handloader that had an article on the 505 Gibbs by Phil Schoemaker, not sure on year, but know it was an August issue. His was actually a 510/505, and he had data for a 680 gr cast bullet, as I recall he pushed it over 2000 fps. His data would get you in the ball park for the 700 ball pills. | |||
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| one of us |
SDS, On another tangent, what are the max loads you get in your 338-378? Thanks, Karl. | |||
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| one of us |
Karl, 110 grains of WC 872 (lot #49453) and the CCI 250 primer gives me 2950 fps with the Sierra 250 gr SPBT in a 24" barrel. I think this is 100 fps slower than the factory load. There is room for 124 grains of WC 872 in the case under a bullet. I consider the 110 grain load to be maximum with that lot of that powder. I have long suspected that my batch of WC 872 is fast, and instead of acting like H 870 as promised it behaves more like IMR 4350. Now that I have IMR 5010, I may eventually rework the load. | |||
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| one of us |
SDS, I suggest you crank off one of those Bertrams that don't have a flashole in them, which was 4 out of a hundred that I bought..Now that's exciting and makes little curly ques of smoke come out of your rosy cheeks.... I understand that Huntingtons is getting quite a few complaints on that stuff...If your satisfied with it that's fine but I just will not use it anymore..I know that I made some brass for the 10.75x68 from Remington 416 cases and it will handle my max load for 10 loadings plus and the Bertram went twice and I got incipient head separation. Just for your information, for what it's worth. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, I do have a complaint about Bertram brass. The flash holes are too small and I can't get a decapping pin through (CH4D die). Of course, I didn't discover this until I'd primed them all.... The brass sure seems soft, but Ross Seyfried wrote that large cases are especially susceptible to dents and collapse duirng forming operations. These are my first large cases other than .378, so I wasn't surprised when I dimpled one while necking it up. | |||
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| one of us |
SDS, At any rate Bertram can be the only whore in town, such as with my 10.75x68, so one must make do....He does make a lot of cases that no one else makes...I do wish he would update his old equipment, thats the problem, I have been told.... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Test message. Delete when found posted. | |||
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| one of us |
I've been out shooting my .510-.505 again. I had discovered that the scope was defective and not the mounts, so I replaced the scope and I was ready to go. I also found out that nearly all of my Bertram brass will accept a standard .07" decapping pin. I had the misfortune to pick up two in a row that wouldn't accept the pin, and I decided the rest were the same. I tried two powders on this trip, IMR 5010 and WC 872. The IMR 5010 produced no hangfires, and produced velocities that were always consistent with the powder charge. Quantities between 125 and 145 grains (slightly compressed load) worked well, with the 145 grain load going 2075 fps. The WC 872 hangfired up to 135 grains, and even after that the velocities varied a lot. It also slightly flattened primers in any quantity. We stopped at 149 grains and 1911 fps because our shoulders had given out. There's room in the case for a little more powder, and we'll try larger quantities next time, but it's unlikely we'll get much beyond 2100 fps, if that much. I'd like to see the powder work better once the case is full. A faster powder will be required to achieve modern pressures and ballistics. My recollection is that it is the July 1990 issue of Guns and Ammo that has the .505 Gibbs article (Jack Lott, of course) and the builder in that article used IMR 4350. I was thrown off the trail by the flattened primers produced by my batch of WC 872, and I decided I needed a slower powder. This was the safe course, but it is now clearly a mistake. SDS | |||
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| one of us |
SDS, I solved my Bertram problems a week ago...I sent the 10.75 to John Ricks to knaw out the hole bigger, and send it back Buffalo ready in caliber 404 Jeffery... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
SDS Thanks for keeping us up dated it is good reading. RNS | |||
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| One of Us |
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One of Us |
Everybody has trouble with Bertram brass, one way or another............  "I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution | |||
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| new member |
I am new to the forum and have been hanging back just reading and absorbing. I like the forum and Thank you Saeed for providing a place for us to explore our interests. The 510/505 is very interesting and it is similar to something I have been thinking about. I was wondering how it would work if necked to accept .509 diam 500 Nitro bullets to take advantage of their superior SD. The only worry this gives me is that would there be enough shoulder left to adequately headspace on. It is only a few thou I realise. Any thoughts. Any input will be appreciated.Thanks | |||
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