Not referring to the super names like H&H and H&W.
Those in the Dakota type pricing level.

Blaser R8 and R93
Browning BLR Takedown.

Sauer 202, and +++ on the Blasers. The Merkel KR-1 rifle is a takedown as well.

I think the Blaser R93 and R8 is the best take down bolt rifle.

You can take them down, and put them back together hundreds of times with no loss of zero.

When you put them together the first round out goes where it should.

They are very accurate and they feed, extract, and eject.

If you want a different calibre, from a rimfire to a 28ga shotgun barrel, from a 222 to a 416, the R93, or up to a 458 Lott or 500 Jeffery, the R8, you just order the barrel, magazine and if you do not have the proper size bolt head, IN THE MAIL.
The you just put it together when your order is delivered.

I do not think ANY other take down rifle, factory or custom made, can even come close to the Blasers.

Blaser R8/R93, Mauser M03, Sauer 202-- not only are they take down but you can switch calibers--the Blaser and Mauser system are the best of the 3. The Sauer while good is a bit slower and more cumbersome to switch between calibers--but is easy as pie to takedown.

Ed

Thanks guys.

Verney-Carron

Take-down model only available up to .300WM so not big bore.
Suppose they'll make you a big bore on order?

- Lars/Finland

Jack, They're seriously great rifles. I've had up to 14 barrels at a time, with 3 or 4 rifles in wood and synthetic. And I don't part with money very easily!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Sauer 202, and +++ on the Blasers. The Merkel KR-1 rifle is a takedown as well.

I own a Merkel KR-1, and having had extensive opprotunity to compare and shoot a R93 owned by my father, we both agreed that the Merkel KR-1 did not come up second in any respect when compared to the Blaser R93.

It's more a preference of features between the two - and the blaser has more dealer presence here in the US.

I have owned and shot blasers for a long time since I'm a lefty (I've had almost every caliber at one time or another--except a 8x64). They are accurate and take down easy. I got my new R8 in a 30-06 in Jan//for a late Christmas present. It is the second most accurate blaser I've ever owned it will shoot 1/2 groups all day long with fed premium.

Here is a gemsbok hunt I just completed with it.. I love it!

Mine was about 4K but will worth the money.


http://www.africahunting.com/h...ing-gemsbuck&cat=502

Ed

1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer take down in 9.5X57 - a big bore but not a DG rifle.

IMO take downs and quality are oxymorans.. The are cute pretty and interesting, but much like a trophy wife, they can't cook..

I have seen more problems crop up in safari camp with take down rifles than with all other rifles combined..

I have seen them refuse to return to zero and mostly after a while bouncing around in a safari truck they begin shooting high just to name a few of the problems..

I asked Harold Wolfe about a few years ago and he told me he had seen the same thing on more than a few ocassions, and would not use one..

Just my take on the subject. Also I'm not all that carried away with QD mounts, the more I have used them over the years the more disinchanted I have become.

As a matter of fact about any change you make in the field can move your point of impact in one degree or another, maybe not by much but enough to miss a brain shot on a charging animal. I have yet to see a QD that will consistantly return to exact zero, most are called good at coming back within 2 or 3 inches and that suits some folks, and other don't know and just accept the wild claims of the company. What is amazing is those cheap Weavers return about as close as any I have used if you turn the slot to the same positions after each removal..but you can't keep the cross hairs straight sometimes, they usually get cocked over a bit with use.

But to each his own on this controversial subject and I only express my views, and thats the way it should be.

Twozero, I have a Merkel KR-1 Antique Stutzen in 308, as well as my Blasers, and like that gun as well. Blaser, Merkel, Sauer, Mauser...Germany turns out some very fine rifles IMHO.

BRIAN HARRE from New Zealand makes take downs, probably the best take town rifles ever made...$15-20,000 per rifle

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Germany turns out some very fine rifles IMHO.

All true.

It's a a shame no american riflemakers make anything as comparable in the same price range.


.

On the other side of the coin I believe American gun makers are probably the worlds best, and offer such a good product that they must charge for their work, but I am not a Blaser fan, most of todays German guns are over engineered, in fact they always have been..

I have seen many Blaser failures and in fact our host Saeed has seen the same failures in our safari camp, and has made mention of that many times.

All in all its a matter of personal choice and if one is happy with his European gun then all is fine, but to say they make better guns in Europe is strictly conjecture on your part.

Look at the Prechtl site. I believe they or Johannsen offer them. I saw a 375 using their action and a 458 Lott offered by New England Custom Guns a few years ago.
I took an H&S takedown to Africa and it is a pleasure not wrestling that big gun case through customs.
Call Ralf Martini and inquire. He seems pretty well plugged in to what is available in Europe.
If you find two let me know!

Jack: Do a search for "Reimer Johannsen Rifles" and you will see "Catalog Details". It is a Johannsen takedown 375 that sold at auction at Sothebys for 7 thousand pounds. They're out there!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
IMO take downs and quality are oxymorans.. The are cute pretty and interesting, but much like a trophy wife, they can't cook..

I have seen more problems crop up in safari camp with take down rifles than with all other rifles combined..

I have seen them refuse to return to zero and mostly after a while bouncing around in a safari truck they begin shooting high just to name a few of the problems..

I asked Harold Wolfe about a few years ago and he told me he had seen the same thing on more than a few ocassions, and would not use one..

Just my take on the subject. Also I'm not all that carried away with QD mounts, the more I have used them over the years the more disinchanted I have become.

As a matter of fact about any change you make in the field can move your point of impact in one degree or another, maybe not by much but enough to miss a brain shot on a charging animal . I have yet to see a QD that will consistantly return to exact zero, most are called good at coming back within 2 or 3 inches and that suits some folks, and other don't know and just accept the wild claims of the company. What is amazing is those cheap Weavers return about as close as any I have used if you turn the slot to the same positions after each removal..but you can't keep the cross hairs straight sometimes, they usually get cocked over a bit with use.

But to each his own on this controversial subject and I only express my views, and thats the way it should be.

Double rifles are take-downs, each time one breaks one open, they are in effect conducting part of the takedown process then closing/locking it back up . [like loosening & relocking the barrel on an T/D bolt rifle].
Double rifles are not known for super grouping or accuracy.
Now im just wondering, would the typical accuracy/point of impact variation in a DR be of less concern than the accuracy/point of impact variation in a takedown DG bolt rifle?
ie; both can offer enough variation to miss a brain shot on charging animal, no?

Would a high quality t/d bolt rifle put together on arrival in camp and test fired, and not pulled apart till end of several days of safari, realistically pose any more potential for point of impact changes, than those that can be typically expected in the normal function of an high quality Double rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
All in all its a matter of personal choice and if one is happy with his European gun then all is fine, but to say they make better guns in Europe is strictly conjecture on your part.

I was not referring to custom gun makers -

Simply that no production american gun maker offers anything in the same price/quality range as Blaser/Merkel/Sauer, etc.

Off the top of my head I can't recall any american manufacturer that makes high quality bolt guns in the 2-3K range like the major european makers, and in the volume and avaliability that they do.

I fully understand disagreeing with the design choices made by Blaser/Sauer/Merkel... but quality fit/finish wise they are a step up from the major american makers like Winchester/Rem/Ruger/kimber.

.

Merkel Helix is a nice takedown:

I get a laugh out of the moving parts concerns and the change of impact when sighting in theories. Go on a 21 day safari with a wood stock rifle and about day 14 your trigger guard screws will tighten a quarter to half turn. We'er not shooting prairie dogs at 400 yards with our 416s so why worry about a non issue.
A sensible approach to me is a synthetic stocked rifle glass bedded and pillar bedded. Put it in a takedown case like the one offered by Jarrett and when you get to Africa reassemble, fire a couple shots, and go hunting. Economical and convenient. Look at Jarrett's web site and you'll see that is exactly how he offers his takedown safari rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

As a matter of fact about any change you make in the field can move your point of impact in one degree or another, maybe not by much but enough to miss a brain shot on a charging animal. I have yet to see a QD that will consistantly return to exact zero, most are called good at coming back within 2 or 3 inches and that suits some folks, and other don't know and just accept the wild claims of the company. What is amazing is those cheap Weavers return about as close as any I have used if you turn the slot to the same positions after each removal..but you can't keep the cross hairs straight sometimes, they usually get cocked over a bit with use.

Seriously? Leupold QR's have always returned to less than 1.5MOA for me, and the Blaser system is much better than that. But even if your figure of 3MOA is correct, that would translate to about 1/3 inch at ten yards. Unless you are shooting at charging mosquitos, it's difficult to believe that this will mean the difference between a hit and a miss.

Weavers do work well as QR release rings, at least as well as the Leupolds. Tightened consistently, as you mentioned, they are good, although ugly. They are difficult to assemble with the scope perfectly level, as they tend to rotate the tube a bit when the caps are tightened...but there is no way that the scope gets "cocked over a bit with use". The scope is cocked over when the ring caps are first tightened, unless you take pains to loosen, adjust, and re-tighten until the crosshairs are level. Once they are level (and getting them that way can be a hassle) they are staying that way. If your scope is moving at all in the rings...you did it wrong in the first place!

John

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
On the other side of the coin I believe American gun makers are probably the worlds best, and offer such a good product that they must charge for their work, most of todays German guns are over engineered, in fact they always have been..

Gotta disagree!

The best American rifles were/are the Model 1886 Winchesters and their derivative, the Model 71 plus the better examples of the Savage 99. I have owned, loaded for, shot and sold off nice examples of all of these and none of them equal a "best" British or German sporting rifle, not even close.

I seem to recall that you have stated that the Brno 21/22 series rifles were/are the best production rifles ever made and I agree and have held this opinion for over 40 years. I would point out that this action is MAUSER 98 in all of it's design features EXCEPT that rinky-dink bolt shroud safety, which I instantly change.

The next and even rarer Brno, the ZG-47, is also a Mauser 98, again, with a different shroud-safety and a mediocre adjustable trigger. These are NOT ...over -engineered... and they are GERMAN in design, just as the finest guns ever made or designed are British and German, NOT American copies such as the Springfield.

I also have never had the issues with QR mounts on my rifles and these have been backpacked, horsepacked, trucked, heli'ed and boated all over BC and much of Alberta. I have rifles that I carried on a packboard every day for 5 months, alone in the mountains and I have never had an issue.

The USA HAS some superb gunmakers and more of them than any other nation, but, no nation has an exclusive on fine gunmaking. If, any did, it would be Britain and Germany, not the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


Just my take on the subject. Also I'm not all that carried away with QD mounts, the more I have used them over the years the more disinchanted I have become.

As a matter of fact about any change you make in the field can move your point of impact in one degree or another, maybe not by much but enough to miss a brain shot on a charging animal. I have yet to see a QD that will consistantly return to exact zero, most are called good at coming back within 2 or 3 inches and that suits some folks, and other don't know and just accept the wild claims of the company. What is amazing is those cheap Weavers return about as close as any I have used if you turn the slot to the same positions after each removal..but you can't keep the cross hairs straight sometimes, they usually get cocked over a bit with use.

But to each his own on this controversial subject and I only express my views, and thats the way it should be.

Hi Ray. See your back. I guess business is slow so youll be trying to sell a hunt here soon?

Anyway, you are living under a rock if you think quality QD mounts can't do better than 2-3 MOA return to zero when reattaching.

I own a Mauser M03 take down rifle. Awesome rifle!

You can add new barrels as needed and most importantly you don't have to wait 2-4 years for a custom rifle maker to build you a one barrel take down rifle! The rifle is guaranteed for 10 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
most of todays German guns are over engineered, in fact they always have been..

and the Austrian ones, too...

LJS,

I looked at the Jarrett site. The Pro Hunter is a cool example!

Rusty,

Your M03 take-down is a really fine piece of work! REALLY Fine.

To All You Guys,

Thanks for your input. It's really appreciated. I am learning a lot!

There are exceptions and I made no mention of them but the Brno mod. 21 and 22 are the best commercial rifles ever produced IMO..

As to Custom rifles Johannson rifles and Harold Wolfe and a few others are as good as any.

I can't disagree with Dewey in that the Win. 1886, mod. 71, 94, 63 to name a few are awesome but not custom guns and I have always had a love affair with Savage 99s, particularly the 99F (1950s) and 99EG.

All in all, and after some consideration I suspect there is plenty of room in both countries to be proud of there guns.