Ray:
You've mentioned that being around Saeed shooting his 404/375 with Walterhog flatnosed solids, has made you rethink the effectiveness of the 375 super magnums, and put them into the 458 Lott class, of stopper/killing rifles.

I was just thinking about this, and perhaps, given Saeed's family history, and ability to shoot, perhaps it's just Saeed's incredible shooting ability, rather then the caliber?

I do remember from the videos here, a quartering away shot, with a regular 375 H&H, on a dukier, running away, that very few people in the world could have made.

Perhaps it's percise bullet placement, more then caliber?

Thanks

GS

When shooting 25-50 yards off shooting sticks, the bullet better go where it was intended or there is a fundamental problem...

What we do not know is whether all 100 of Saeed's buffalo would have died just as quickly with a bullet from a 375 H&H. RIP's bullet box showed no more penetration from a 375 Wby compared to a 375 H&H, although the 375 Wby made a bigger splash at the front end.

Now let's take it a step further. If Saeed had used a 458 Lott instead of a 375/404 to take 100 buffalo with great success, what would that mean? And what if he had used a 470 Nitro Express?

All of these questions and many more are answered in John Taylor's writings on rifles and cartridges for big game. But instead of talking about 100 buffalo, he talks of a thousand, or a few hundred elephants, so it is clear he had plenty of experience with a cartridge before making a judgment.

I don't recall saying Saeed used a flat nose solid, but if I did its a mistake on my part..He uses monolithic H.P. that he makes himself...I have seen him kill an awful lot of buffalo from every angle and it simply works because it has the velocity and a proper bullet and he can shoot..A combination that you can't beat...

I think most of this caliber thing is just fun and games, and isn't really as important as we make it, but that would rain on a lot of parades, so lets not go there...

A .375 H&H or Wby or 375/404 will penitrate a buffalo lengthwise 95% of the time with a proper bullet....I don't trust the .375 on a facing buffalo with a soft, but a solid will get him, a soft tends to slip off to the side and go between the shoulder and outside the rib cage..I have seen this happen a few times and know and have read of happening to others.....

Any caliber from a 375 up with solids makes a decent elephant rifle IMO...if you can shoot is the only requirment with any of them and if you can't none are worth beans.....

However I might add to the above that as soon as Saeeds bullets penetrate a certain depth whatever that may be the front end has blown off and the remainer of about 85% is a flat nose solid that has a world of penetration.. perhaps that was my thinking....

By Ray!

I think most of this caliber thing is just fun and games, and isn't really as important as we make it, but that would rain on a lot of parades, so lets not go there...


Truer words were never spoken!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
...RIP's bullet box showed no more penetration from a 375 Wby compared to a 375 H&H, although the 375 Wby made a bigger splash at the front end. ...

500grains,
Thank you for your recognition of the Iron Bufffalo test results. True as you say.

The buffalo is out to pasture until I have better water access at a suitable range. The backyard garden hose shooting got the neighbors of my friend upset, and I do not want to go back to dipping pond water after hours at the 300 yard range where I have the keys.

With about two dozen .375 bullets fired, I can say with certainty in the plywood and waterbag medium of the Iron Buffalo, using GSC FN solid bullets of .375 caliber and 270gr and 300gr weights:

300 grain bullets at 2500 and 2700 fps penetrate the same, and both out-penetrate a 270 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

Using .475 North Fork FPS solids at 2100, 2300 and 2500 fps, the penetration was also the same, and it equaled the .375/300gr's best penetration.

There was dramatically more splash, board breakage, and visible mayhem with the .475/500gr at 2500 fps, and penetration was just as deep and straight as with the slower bullets.

A Barnes brass round nose solid (.474/500gr) at 2300 fps went less than half as far as the FN's and FP's before tumbling and veering off course. Similar shabby performance was seen from a Woodleigh .423/400gr FMJ round nose solid at 2400 fps.

Any round nose shape allows a solid to tumble too soon and flatten an open base exposed lead "solid" like a Woodleigh. Half inch plywood plus 7.5 inches of water in a plastic bag repeated 12 times is way too tough for a Woodleigh to get even half way through.

The solid copper FN and FP bullets make it through 10 compartments and are knocking on the door of the eleventh.

I have some Bridger .505/550gr bullets to try to get to the 12th compartment and the stack of plywood at the end which represents the head of the buffalo.

The Iron Buffalo is a Texas Heart Shot Simulator , for water buffalo, Pun intended.

.

Doctalfi,
I would never use a Woodleigh Weldcore softpoint at faster than 2100 fps in my .470 NE, but i would consider it a fine soft for the Merkel.

I would think that any solid up to snuff would be able to handle 2400 fps.

Does this exceed the velocity envelope for the Woodleigh .423/400gr FMJ?

Anyway, the solid brass roundnose Barnes .474/500 fares no better at 2300 fps.

Now here is a thought: Are all of the roundnose solids maybe more stable at lower velocities of impact?

Would a roundnose SOLID at 2000 fps penetrate better than the ones at 2300 and 2400 fps that tumble way too soon? Once they tumble, the Fat Lady has sung.

I now have a reason to bring the Iron Buffalo out of pasture and back to the ring ... Ole', touche', get along little doggie, or whatever.

Rip,
How about on of those plastic water tanks that you see yard maintance and pest control companies using in the bed of a small pickup truck? Portable, gravity fed.
Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
By Ray!

I think most of this caliber thing is just fun and games, and isn't really as important as we make it, but that would rain on a lot of parades, so lets not go there...


Truer words were never spoken!

465H&H

Great tests!!!

Kind of funny how long people have been using round nose bullets. I guess I come from a different school, big bore handguns, and, since you don't worry about feeding, Flat Nosed Kieth bullets, or LBT's, have always been considered superior to round nose.

It would be intresting if you have the same tumble reaction, using round nose handgun bullets. It would also be really intresting if what you are doing does away with the concept of ballistic gelatin.

One round that has been known, as a round nose, to penetrate like crazy in handguns, is the 230 grain cast, or jacketed, .45 caliber round nose.

It's been known to blow through 24" of ballistic gelatin, and, I've put them through some pretty good size trees, at handgun velocities.
Still, some of the shootings documented show the 45 acp does have a tendency to 'wander' off course...as have all handgun caliber round nose bullets.


What this certainly does is give a bit of validation to the old school guys that used to hunt big game with lesser calibers, using cast bullets, flat nosed, at under 2200 fps.

Low recoil, percise bullet placement, straight penetration, etc.

It also makes the big bore revolver guys a bit ahead of us, since 40-50 years ago Lee Jurras
and those guys used flat nosed bullets on big game, and, it worked.

They had a better design, waiting for the proper materials, and machining ability to come along and make it useable at rifle velocities.

Ray: Saeed is making his own semi-Barnes X bullet, then? Sounds great. Sure would be nice to see some pictures.

GS

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Ray: Saeed is making his own semi-Barnes X bullet, then? Sounds great. Sure would be nice to see some pictures.

GS

All pictures originally posted by Saeed.

More pictures in this thread.

*

Thanks.

Great pics!
GS

quote:

I don't trust the .375 on a facing buffalo with a soft, but a solid will get him, a soft tends to slip off to the side and go between the shoulder and outside the rib cage..

Is this not perhaps a shot placement problem rather than the caliber/bullet problem. Just shoot them damn beast centre in the chest. Pick a proper Soft - like a controlled expansion bullet.

Chris

Chris,
No the times I have seen it were all dead center hits with softs, and many other PHs will testify to this...Never happens with solids in the .375 nor with softs in the larger calibers as far as I know. Controled expansion does not seem to enter into this equasion, as the cases I have seen and the ones I know of have all been with premium bullets, in my case a Swift and a Barnes X, both of which never fail from any other shot on buffalo....Doctori refers to this in his book Nyati, Old man Van Heerden, Robert Ritnauer, told me of this, along with several other old time PHs, its pretty much an accepted fact among buffalo hunters and PHs in Tanzania and Zimbabwe and of course it doesn't always happen, just on a rare ocassion.

I think the reason .375 softs are doing poorly on a frontal chest shot on buff is because they begin to open up before they get through the ribs, and the partially expanded bullet loses radial stability when it hits bone, causing it to careen sideways rather than proceeding forward.

A similiar instability phenomena can be seen when shooting ultra-long bullets from the .416 (400 gr. Barnes X) and .458 (500 grain Barnes X) at higher velocities that tend to induce more yaw. The problem can be mitigated with a faster twist rate, which factory rifles do not offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Rip,
How about on of those plastic water tanks that you see yard maintance and pest control companies using in the bed of a small pickup truck? Portable, gravity fed.
Just a thought.

Rusty,
I have thought of it. I need about 500 pounds of water per shot in the Iron Buffalo. A half-ton truck doesn't allow many shots. I need a commercial water hauling truck or a surplus Army "water buffalo."

I will ask the TVA to run a water line out to the 300 yard rifle range in the boonies where I play.