The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Another .404 QuestionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
I'm considering buying this pretty old Mauser 98 custom .404 Jeff. And, I've read through much of the material already here on the subject but am still not sure how or if to proceed. The particular gun is chambered for the original .404 cartridge which I'm told is too small for much of the .404 ammo currently available. The bore however I'm told is .423. So, is there currently available ammo that would fit it and from whom? Or, on the other hand, would I need to have the chamber worked on? In case it's not readily apparent, I'm just starting to get interested in owning dangerous game rifles and so would appreciate any helpful advice (I just recently also bought a custom Mauser in .416 Rem - these things appear to be somewhat additive). | ||
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| one of us |
Consider that someone is feeding you misinformation. If your barrel groove diameter is .423" then it is of the modern spec. Some antiques were all over the place. The CIP bullet diameter spec is about .422": "Projectile G1 = 10.72mm" which is 0.4220472". This is for the "404 Riml.N.E." which is the closest thing to "404 Jeffery" that is listed. "Commencement of Rifling G1 = 10.77mm" which is 0.4240157". CIP may be confused too: "Barrel F = 10.46mm Z = 10.62mm" which is 0.411811" and 0.4181102" ... land and groove typo??? All of these CIP values I have listed are footnoted with the same precaution: "1) Check for safety reasons" Current factory ammo is .423-caliber. Current barrel makers are spec-ed as either .423" (most) or .424" (Krieger) for the groove diameter. Barnes TSX bullets are about .422". In 1905 when the 404 Jeffery was born, as the first and best ever bolt action DGR, quality control on barrels was not so good. | |||
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One of Us |
What Rip said! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
What I'm told is it's the original .404 and some modern ammo is longer and so the chamber would have to be opened up to fit. Also, that the bore is .423. I did a little searching on the net and found some discussion of this here (skip on down aways) - http://www.africanoutfitter.co...r/favoriterifles.php. They have some specs on the original. So if I don't want it worked on I need to know what companies to turn to for ammo (I'm not a handloader so that's not an option), and the same would be the case if I do get it worked on. I see on Norma's website the dimensions for their .404. Maybe if I can get the dimensions for the original somewhere I can compare them. Feel free to let me know if that makes sense or if I'm worrying about nothing. | |||
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| one of us |
I see. Since you zeroed in on groove diameter, I was not considering the brass differences. I read the article. It did not specifically mention case length differences or headspace differences, just a tightness at neck-shoulder junction. That coud be a chamber neck diameter being smaller on the old rifle, and/or current brass case necks being thicker, greater diameter with loaded bullets. The remedy specified that worked for others was just insertion of the modern-spec-ed reamer. It might be just a neck reamer required. Careful use of the full chamber reamer seems to be the easy fix. That article does reflect the confused specs on CIP, or CIP mixed up the old and the new, and footnoted it with minimal explanation. So they really did start off squeezing .422" bullets through .418" grooves! Since you have a .423" barrel it is easy, no problem, Clean up the chamber with a modern reamer. Dave Manson has the proper specs, I am sure. | |||
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| One of Us |
It appears then on this one the bore is modern, but the chamber isn't. It also appears there may be two sizes of brass cases, for old and new guns. In any event, I'd want the gun to be shootable with whatever is being currently produced, which apparently means having the reaming done. Does all that sound correct so far? If so, could you suggest maybe the names of three smiths to pick from, who would have the necessary reamers and would otherwise be reliable? Also, who is currently doing .404 ammo? I've done a little checking but what you can find in old threads may not be up to date. | |||
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| one of us |
It is a simple job. Any competent gunsmith with the reamer and headspace gauges could do it. One of mine is a full-time mechanical engineer, the other started medical school at age 39. I do not want them getting any extra business until they get my work done!  I am not aware of any brass of antique spec currently being made. Norma brass is what I stocked up on. Norma and Hornady are two "best" sources for brass or loaded ammo. Surely you will want to load your own. | |||
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one of us |
RIP is giving you straight info. I had my 404j done w/ a Clymer reamer, it is perfect to current spec, at least w/ Norma brass. I don;t shoot factory ammo, but it is available now from Hornady, maybe soo from Federal. Norma & RWS are reported to still make it but good luck finding it here in the USA. Great cartridge, but IMO, handloaders round fro best performance. Depending on the rifle & cost, It's s imple matter for a good riflesmith w/ the proper reamer to set back the bbl. a turn or two & rechmaber if it's needed. I wouldn't want to pay a lot for a rifle that I know needs work, but for the right price, right rifle, might be worth it. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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| One of Us |
Like I was saying I'm not a handloader. I'm too far down the road at this point to take that up. So I'm limited to factory loads. Two possibilities, both leading to some questions. One is trying to shoot it as is. That means finding out if anyone is making ammo to the old specs. I notice that Kynoch is still around and their website shows all sorts of cartridges, including the .404. Can anyone take an educated guess if it would be based on old or current specs? There has got to be a market for this with older guns. One esthetic advantage to this solution would be in keeping the chamber and thus the whole gun to the original condition prevailing at the time the gun was built. The other possibility is getting it re-worked. No one in my region is going to have a .404 reamer. I would probably have to find and purchase one, and I've no idea the cost or availability. Then I have to find and line up a smith out of town to do the work, who I'm comfortable in sending the gun off to. I suppose I would also have to buy some of the Hornady loads to furnish to the smith so he'd have something to go by. So, it'd be shipping and insurance expense both ways, reamer expense, new ammo and gunsmithing expense. I guess that's what it's looking like... | |||
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| One of Us |
Shack, Have you tried to chamber a Hornady factory round in this rifle? Hornady is based on CIP specs. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
I checked with Hornady and as I understand it their ammo is made to the current specs. But, I didn't contact Kynoch (there wasn't time). For benefit of any who were following this, I decided to pass on buying that gun. It wound up going for under $2K. It had a nice old Mauser step-down style barrel with much engraving. Wood was nice with signs of wear and it had the look as if someone just came in off a big game hunt with it. The exact make wasn't readily apparent, although overall it looked like it might have been an early version of what we call Browning safari rifles. It did say Gewehr 98 on the receiver. I let it go on down the road because hand-loading is not an option and there were too many uncertainties about getting it ready for shooting. I even looked into getting a reamer myself. Anyway, for those interested in Jeffery ballistics, I found this in my copy of Taylor's African Rifles & Cartridges; at p. 202 is a chart of "standard diameters of all British bullets" and for the .404 it says .411". The book was printed in 1948, but I think the diameters shown were pre-war. So, we now have at least three different diameters, .423 (Hornady), .422 (Barnes) and .411 for this cartridge. The .411 makes sense in light of the specs shown in the article linked above (.410 bore, .418 groove), because it'd be a better fit without much "squeezing". I'll take a wild guess that at some point somebody introduced the .422 which worked because it was a soft bullet and from there things got more complicated. And that's aside from the different brass cases. At any rate, the .404's development doesn't seem a model of clarity. Is this not rather interesting? | |||
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| one of us |
Yep, The .404 Jeffery is not what it used to be. It is now better! To better the best is quite a feat.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Shack, no current .404 Rifle will handle A-Square ammo  Seriously, you'll be handloading for your rifle anyways, why worry? | |||
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| One of Us |
Negatory on the hand-loading...way too far down the road to take up any more new hobbies...it'll have to strictly be off-the-shelf ready-to-run ammo. This is probably about as good a place as any to ask another 404 question. Suppose I wanted to have one custom built (a big "if", but entirely possible), would you use a Winchester or Mauser action and why? | |||
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One of Us |
A 98 action without question. I did and it is an added traditional point to a very traditional cartridge. Von Gruff. | |||
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| one of us |
Shack I see that you passed on the rifle, but my recomendation would have been to send the rifle to JJ Perodeau at Chamlin Arms in Enid and have him take a look at it. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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| one of us |
Shack, The anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive nostalgiac will insist on a crippled standard M98 Mauser. Those with no mental disorders will happily allow Magnum Mauser 98s, Winchester M70s, Dakota 76s, and even CZ 550 Magnums. The modern 404 Jeffery is indeed a far cry from the original that squeezed a .418" bullet down a .411"-grooved barrel. The 404 Jeffery is not what it used to be. It should be allowed normal bore habits with .423" bullets in .423" grooves. I say normal bore habits for those with normal bowel habits! Roomier, stronger actions are the way to go, and I don't mean "number two." **************************************************************** This excerpt is from the scholarly work of George A. Hoyem, pg.108 of: THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION VOLUME THREE (BRITISH SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES)  | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually I've talked this over now with my smith and a Winchester action was his first choice. He already had a source in mind for a new one. I gather it might be cheaper than the Mauser, which he said he could also obtain. He said the standard should be adequate in that. Anyway, I'd have to agree; I'm not interested in squeezing any bullets thru bores they weren't meant for. So it appears I'm leaning toward the Winchester. That leaves questions of barrel length, kind of wood, length of pull, drop, sights, round capacity, recoil equipment and what "special" other features would be good or cool to have on it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Shack what will be the total cost of this custom build? As opposed to buying a CZ Safari rifle and customizing it? | |||
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| One of Us |
We've only talked price generally, but it'd be mid 4 figures. The CZ .404 Jeffery list price appears to be about $3K. I don't know about customizing costs on a piece like that, but what all options or features I'd want (or don't want) will probably require a from-scratch effort. I'd prefer it built locally anyway for a number of reasons. | |||
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One of Us |
Take a look at American Hunting Rifles (AHR) in that price range. They build off of the CZ 550 and put out some nice products. John | |||
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One of Us |
.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Another .404 Question
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