"... This double-grip lever mechanism is very simple; all the parts are strong, and, with back-action locks, it is a form of breech action which but for the time required to manipulate might still find favor with sportsmen.

"From the fact that the screw-like grip with its long lever is capable of binding the barrels very tightly to the breech-action body it is sometimes inferred that the double-grip is a stronger form of breech mechanism than some snap mechanisms which will not work automatically when the action is foul or a too thick rimmed cartridge case is put in the chamber. As will subsequently be shown, this inference is wrong, since the strain exerted by the force of the explosion is in a line with the axis of the barrels; to support this strain the double grip affords no power whatever. The work it actually does requires no particular strength; for the barrels may be held to the bed of the breech-action body by the thumb and forefinger, even though a full charge be fired."

Daggaron,

I would not consider Mr. Greener as a very credible source. At the time he undoubtedly wrote this statement he was SELLING his cross bolt invention to anyone who would buy it (the continental makers just stole it i.e. patent infringement). I sincerely hope that you are not so naive as to actually believe Greener's BS.

Look at your Merkel and tell me if there are shiny witness marks at the left and right periphery of the barrel breech faces. Next look at the Purdey underbites in the lump for witness marks (they will be there and will almost certainly be most prevalent on the rearward most bite). Lastly, look at the action hook (hinge pin raceway) there will me some witness marks there as well. Those witness marks are due to resistance of the bolting, and the reaction points of the action (i.e. standing breech/barrel breech face and hinge pin/hook) to the opening of the action about the hinge pin during firing! Mr. Greener says you fingers are as strong as the steel that has been polished/micro-deformed (that is what a witness mark is).

A warning to everyone. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO HOLD THE BREECH CLOSED ON ANY DOUBLE BARRELED FIREARM WITH JUST YOUR THUMB AND FOREFINGER!

That is an excerpt from that Lott piece that someone was offering to email to anyone who wanted it isn't Daggaron. Not having read much on double rifles (I actually shoot and work on them)I cannot be certain if Mr. Greener's statement was in that work by Mr. Lott. However, knowing the integrity and knowledge of Jack Lott, I will wager if Mr. Greener's statement is quoted in his article he also points out how outrageously BOGUS it is.

That is all I have to say (I will not fight with trolls who post bogus marketing BS just to start a fight). Let common sense be your guide and believe what you want.

Dagga, I think I'm going to have to agree with 500 AHR on this one for the most part. Mostly that anything Mr. Greener said when he wrote that, would compare to Garrette's claims, with his haveing something to sell, the competed with the Jones Lever!

In any event, I believe the Jones, properly made, and fitted, is a very strong system, especially if accompanied by a third fastener, like a doll's head! Unfortunetly, most Jones levers are quite old, and the steel they are made form is not up to todays Greener system, so no real compaison can be done, with out makeing a NEW jones lever. Something I'm not willing to do simply to prove a point! When both were made at the same time, the steel of both would be likely to be the same, and would be the place where the system would fail if tested. I think a Jones lever, combined with a Greener crossbolt, with modern steel, would be hel for strong!

MacD37,
I would have to agree with your comments too. A firearm manufactured today would be far superior to one made 110 years ago, which is when the vast majority of Jones bolted rifles were made. I would also agree that a modern manufactured rifle with a Jones bolting system as the "primary" lock and a Greener cross bolt as a "secondary" lock would be the strongest possible side by side lever actuated bolting system available.

Daggaron, if you still do not believe me. Consider the paradox of Mr. Greener's own statement. He says that the force working to open the rifle's action is so small that you can hold the barrels to the action bar with no more than your thumb and forefinger. If this is indeed true, as Mr. Greener states, why does Mr. Greener hold a patent on a cross bolt which transverses a rib extension for the sole purpose of keeping the action from opening about the hinge pin during firing? Think about it. Mr. Greener's own "secondary" bolting system exists solely to hold the action shut! Mr. Greener has stated that the force required to hold the action shut can be accommdated by using one's thumb and forefinger. WHY THE HELL DO WE NEED HIS CROSS BOLT THEN?

Repeat after me, with regard to the comments quoted from Mr. Greener by Daggaron, MARKETING HYPE!

This is my last words on this!

500 AHR: Deja vu?

I made no comments other than to report this quote directly from W. W. Greener's book, The Gun and It's Development .

It has helped me in certain problem identification areas including this:

It does illustrate how double rifle "salesmen" with a stake in one arena will denigrate another, since the beginnings of double rifles.

The fact is that the Jones underlever is a strong mechanism. But the attendant clumsiness and slowness (though silent) of operation are a drawback, as are the old steels. Not too many new ones being made lately.

And the Jones underlever strength is only in one axis of three involved. And the fact is, that the traditional third fasteners work well at containment in this axis, and I don't mean a thumb and finger holding it shut on firing.

A Jones underlever is still a break open action that has all the attendant issues that this action bolting system alone does not address.

Deja vu?

MacD37,
Yep, Greener's comments about the Jones underlever are akin to old George belittling the Merkel 140 in 470 NE, eh? An axe to grind, another brand of gun to sell?

I knew this would make the POSeur proclaim himself, and he has confirmed his identity in attacking Mitch on the 500 A2 thread. 500 AHR sucks and blows.

DAggaron - WARNING Do not try to argue with 500 AHR/TEG/Todds ad nausium about the Jones Underlever. He is the world's greatest authority on these firearms. I have it from a good source that he and his "significant other" Axel are coming out with a full auto version of the Jones. It will be solar powered, very silent and rate of fire will depend on the intensity of the sun at any given point. Early trials indicate they could get as high as 6RPM on a really sunny day.
Remember:


[ 11-17-2002, 08:30: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Go to the 500 A2 thread, this one deserves no more attention.

One last comment, I hope.

Notice how the POSeur types "you" so often instead of "your" as when he says "you fingers" instead of "your fingers."

This is a clue to putting the finger on the POSeur. It will be a stinky finger so go wash thoroughly after fingering the POSeur.

MacD37,

You had better edit this comment from your previous posts.

MacD37 said:

"Dagga, I think I'm going to have to agree with 500 AHR on this one"

Trust me you want nothing to do with an EVIL TRUTH SPEWING TROLL LIKE ME!

RAB, I type too fast, thus I type poorly. I need to proof read my posts before posting them. DUH! I mispell many many words, not just you instead of your! I find those that are hypercritical of others i.e. yourself, Pecos, Russel E. Taylor (a real badass), and many others to be just what they accuse others of being. Now what do you think of that comment?

BTW, this thread was a pathetic attempt on YOUR part to start a big argument about NOTHING!

Ron Berry, you are a pathetic LOSER and POSEUR/WANNABE! Everytime you post your expose you incredible lack of first hand experience with big bores and double rifles to all those that have this first hand knowledge.

I leave knowing that at least the SILENT MAJORITY knows full well that my comments about YOU are correct! So continue posting your bogus claims, but understand that everyone (and I mean everyone) knows YOU are the POSEUR not me!

In the end let COMMON SENSE be your GUIDE in cyberland. If something sounds too good to be true, IT IS!

[ 11-17-2002, 18:46: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

POSeur,
Trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, eh?
This is an old saw of yours. It doesn't work. I do not claim to be anything other than human, so you are obviously wrong in calling me a poseur, after all, I am not a space alien. Other aspects of my life, work, friendships, hobbies, do not require proof to you, unless you are just a mean spirited little person of so little means that he is jealous of my meager accomplishments. In that case, you are truly pathetic.

I do not want to get into religion and politics with you, but I see that a religious conversion is your only hope. You are a personality disorder. Don't give up hope. You can change if you want to.

/

FWIW, a friend just bought an original Greener 12 bore double which has a Jones underlever. Apparently, Greener didn't hate them all that much.

Brent

Dagga, you're right on target with your critque of the draw backs of the Jones system! Strength is not the problem, but it's operation is not as easy, or as fast as either the Toplever, or the snapp action, which are both, basicly, the same action, just operated by levers in opposite sides of the action.

If I remember correctly, Greener also wrote of test firing a double gun with no locking bolt, the barrels merely being tied closed with a piece of string.

I dunno nuthin' 'bout this, but I would bet on ol' W.W. over anyone posting here.