Hodgdon shows H1000 as giving the lowest pressure at traditional 416 Rigby velocities (with 400 grain pills). Anyone out there had good results with this combo (at 2300-2400fps)? Thanks

H1000 is too slow for taking advantage of the Rigby's capacity.
The 4350's or R17 are better balanced

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
H1000 is too slow for taking advantage of the Rigby's capacity.
The 4350's or R17 are better balanced

Perhaps I should have stated my goal a little more clearly. I am having a custom 416 Rigby rifle built on a standard length 98 action (DWM mil-surp). Aside from minor engraving and heat treating/recarburizing the action, the barreled action is complete. In the interest of safety, I will only be shooting standard velocity handloads with pressures on the bottom end of SAAMI specs, along with the occasional standard velocity factory load. I've read that when Federal set out to start making 416 Rigby ammo in the late 80's, they wanted to duplicate the old factory load velocities while keeping pressures as low as reasonably possible in deference to the very old rifles that could be put back in service. I understand Federal's 416 Rigby loads typically run 2350 to 2375fps. I view Federal's 416 Rigby loads as the Gold Standard to duplicate. What has peeked my interest in H1000, at least on paper, is the fact that a starting load of 110 grains gives 2370fps, which is right about what Federal's factory load is advertised to be. On top of that, the load density is very high with pressure being very low. Given my goals as stated above, does anyone have any suggestions.

You've probably already reached your goals. I would do a little ladder testing around the 110 grain load.

If things don't work out as expected:
check the bedding
or try H4831sc or
R22, or 25

But H1000 should do it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
You've probably already reached your goals. I would do a little ladder testing around the 110 grain load.

If things don't work out as expected:
check the bedding
or try H4831sc or
R22, or 25

But H1000 should do it for you.

Thanks for the advice!

Colorado Matt:
I also load my Rigby to factory specs. I use H4350, and with about 87 grains I get close to the 2350 mark with Hornady 400 gr. I have a CZ550 and kept the barrel at the original 25"(?) or was it 26"?
That load shoots better than I will ever hope to and a pound of powder lasts just a bit longer!

My CZ 416 Rigby also shoots 410 gr Woodleighs and 400 gr Hornady / Barnes solid with H4350.

I am using 96 gr for 2550 fps with the Hornady & Barnes Solid.

Not quite what you are after but I use 98grains of AR2209 (H4350) or 106grains of AR2213sc(H4831) all for 2450 with a 410grain Woodleigh RNSP or 2550 with a 400gr Hydro.

Means you can use the hydro with less powder for same velocity as a standard SP.

H4831 @ 98 grains will give you 2,350. You can bump it up a touch from there. Pressures will be low. Be sure to use foam over the powder.

Federal actually uses (or used to use) R/L 15 and a rumoured M-216 ultra hot primer.

You are right on target with going for 2,350 to 2,370.

Cannot wait to see pictures of your rifle. Who got it to feed for you?

L/D

quote:

Be sure to use foam over the powder.

Who got it to feed for you?

L/D

Foam over the powder? What kind of foam?

My gunmaker got it to feed.
Thanks for the advice LD!

Kynoch sells the correct type of foam, pre cut and everything.

The other source is the packing foam that computer and electronic parts is protected with in transit. Those two types of foams DO NOT have a fire retardant. They burn up when you fire the cartridge. The foam holds all the powder against the primer. That makes for more uniform ignition and total burn.

Many of these legacy cartridges were designed around Cordite. Cordite's form was bulky spaghetti like, "cords". With modern powders, even slow burners, there is often anywhere from a moderate to a large bit of empty air space. As you can guess, the correct foam prevents a lot of trouble.

I use the computer/electronic protection foam (I still have some Kynoch foam pieces - they are sort of spendy.

I use a, "bridge punch" to punch out the correct diameter of the foam. Those are available from Buffalo Bore in Idaho and Penn Tool Company. They are inexpensive.

If your powder charge gives you a 95% to 100% fill of your case, then you do not need to add any foam.

Before foam, we used a few grains of Dacron, "pillow and doll fill" for the same purpose. You would end up with the wad of unburned dacron about 20 meters downrange after shooting. The foam is nice because it is all consumed in the burn, and the amount used is not as critical as with Dacron.

Clear as mud?

Go to the Kynoch website and look at their pre-cut foam plugs. A picture is worth...

Bro'Dart,
No picture there, but surely someone around here has posted a pic ...
http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/shop.html

Kynoch Nitro Express Wads
Unique case filling system developed and used by Kynoch on all their big game ammunition and now available to the home loader.
Size 1: From .300 to .400 packed in 100's £9.00
Size 2: From .400 to .500 NE packed in 100's £9.00
Size 3: From .500 to .700 NE packed in 50's £6.50


Bro'Dart is talking about the kind of "packing foam" you also find in hard gun cases like Pelican, Doskocil, etc., of various densities,
any of which can be used, if you make it thick enough to give some compression when loaded, to keep the powder from shaking around in air space,
eliminate the air space in the load.

Urethane foam, I do believe:



Above Pictured:
The All-Spec is a low density conductive urethane foam that is soft for cushioning and packaging.

All-Spec Features:
Soft low density foam engineered for cushioning and packaging
Low shedding, cross-linked urethane
Non corrosive
CFC free
Nitrogen blown
Black conductive: < 105 ohms/sq.
Size: 24" x 36" x 1/4"

Or BELOW pictured:

High Density Urethane Foam Sheet 2"X24"X10'-White



You get the idea.
Basically something you can raid the dumpster for.
Something you have been throwing out with the trash,
unless you are a riflecrank.

You can also buy packages of multiple sheets of thin, low density, urethane foam used to change the filters on window air conditioning units,
at Lowes or Home Depot.That is only about 1/8" thick and you can punch out a bunch of disks and stack them to desired thickness.

Use a chamfer-sharpened brass cartridge case like a cookie cutter on a cutting board, twist and press down on the foam against the board,
and the brass case will cut the foam cookies. I use a 50 BMG case to cut foam wads for a 470 NE,
out of a 3/4"-thick foam slab, saved from unpacking something like lawndart says.
Your punch needs to be of greater caliber than your bullet or case interior for a snug fill.

michael458 swears the foam wads do not cause the pressure excursions caused by Dacron/polyester fiber filler wads.
He has the pressure traces.
Now I gotta go throw my pillow stuffing in the trash, or find a seamstress who can use it in a stuffed animal.

RIP

Do you recommend this for the 416 Rigby with H4350? I see a fair amount of space left in the case.

Secondly - Will it not spike pressures if the wad in in the case body & NOT in the neck area?

Thirdly how many discs does one use? In my 416 Rigby loads I see enough space to go 0.5 inches or even 0.75 inches.

Nakihunter,

No I do not recommend it in the .416 Rigby.

Lawndart does.

I have used it in the 470 NE and 500 Mbogo (.416 Rigby necked up and blown out),
though those are nearly straight cases compared to the .416 Rigby shoulder.

Still, the foam is so compressible and frangible that I would not worry about using it in the .416 Rigby.

I generally like to fill my .416 Rigby cases enough that I never considered filler in it.

If I wanted to make squib loads with the .416 Rigby, I would use AA4759 and absolutely no filler with that powder, even with case only half full.

You do not need fillers with H4350 and 350-grainers.
Nor with H4831 and 400 grainers. Those are my choice powders.
Made by ADI, Hodgdon Extreme powders with great temperature stability.

Naki you wont need filling in the 416 Rigby with H4350 otherwise known as AR2209. It is what I use.

I have heard of using Dacron fibre as a filler in straight walled cases, but using any kind of filler in a bottle necked cartridge sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I thank you for the advice, but I think I'll pass on the foam filler idea until a lab empirically verifies its safety.

quote:

but I think I'll pass on the foam filler idea until a lab empirically verifies its safety.

No need to use foam if you do not want to.
It is merely a method of filling empty space to keep the powder column firmly against the primer in cases where the powder does not fill, or nearly fill, the case. The technique has been in widespread use for going on two decades.
Kynoch routinely uses the foam in many of the cartridges that it loads. They empirically tested the concept at the Birmingham proof house in Great Britain before using it in cartridges both bottlenecked and straight (-ish) that they sell. Nary a problem since they started the practice. Indeed, they use the foam to prevent the Secondary Explosion Effect noted with slow burning powders that do not fill, or nearly fill a given case...

Again, all the laboratory controlled empirical testing has been done, but you can load your own cases any way that you wish, sis-BOOM-ah.

Bro'dart,

I agree with all your principles, it is just my practice to load the Rigby full enough not to have any powder shaking about in air in the case.

If I had a load less than 95% of case fill, I would not hesitate to use a disk of urethane foam over the powder to eliminate the annoying powder shake.
That is for any type case, straight or bottle neck.
It certainly will make for uniformity, accuracy, reliability, and stability of the load over time.

For such micro filling of loads I have the air conditioner filter foam sheets from Lowes or Home Depot, etc.
Cut multiple 1/8" thick disks of that low density foam and poke them in as needed, with a pencil or or Q-tip if the neck is that small.

I plead guilty to paranoia in this particular case bro' RIP. I tend to load my Rigby on the light side @98-grains of H-4831 (not the short cut here).

A principle more or less beat into me by my first team sergeant was, "if you do it the safest way every time, then you will automatically do it the safest way on that one in a million borderline case where things go against you; i.e. remove chance, choice and judgement", or more colorful words that convey the same meaning.

Later on I shortened the concept to, "we live or die by our habit patterns".

I do agree it is safe to forego filler in the case of the 416 Rigby, but it would introduce human choice into the equation and violate my habit pattern.

Where did you get that ~ 2" thick sheet/roll of foam? That looks mite handy.

PS By the way, I like the concept of the air-conditioner thin sheets; very slick.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Where did you get that ~ 2" thick sheet/roll of foam? That looks mite handy.

Just googled "urethane foam" to show the variety of what is available.

Yes using multiple thin discs is handy.