Could someone tell me about the 458 Lott? Making cases,factory loads etc.

The reason I'm asking is that my M17 action has had the ears milled off, new trigger, new bolt handle and all and now I have to decide on a calibre. I'm thinking of 416 Rigby but my gunsmith says he's got a reamer for the 458 Lott. Anybody out there with 458 Lott experence?

Bakes

Bakes,

get a .416 Rigby and shoot 410 gr woodleigh 's SN's they will work well on NT pigs

Also it is fairly flat shooting, the case looks cool and if you load the 340 gr woodleigh protected points you will have an even flatter shooting rig. In some repscts the .416 as someone else posted on another thread does a bit of what the .458 lott does and a bit of what the .375 H&H does. It is a ver versatile round, and it does not kick to bad either.

Give Bob De'Vries a ring, if you have not already got a smith I can not reccomend him highly enough.

PC
Yeah I like the Rigby but I went through the old big bore pages and now I like the Lott as well It has alot going for it ie:Able to shoot 458WinMag through it(fairly cheap in the NT),Brass would be cheaper being 375H&H, also cheap and available here in the NT. I guess I'll have to think more on it.

Bakes

Norbert:

Apparently posts are not kept as long as they used to be. As folks come and go on the forum, a lot of this stuff has to be repeated.

Give this guy a break and tell him about your experiences with the Lott, as I think you have much more experience with it than anyone else that frequently visits here.

Bakes:

Norbert, I believe, uses the Lott for everything from rabbits on up. It is a better choice than the Rigby only if you are dedicated elephant hunter and can stand the recoil.

Will

Bakes,

Converting your enfield into a lott will take more than $1K of gunsmithing, and unless the gunsmith is a big bore specialist, there is a high probability that the end result will not work properly.

I suggest considering rechambering a cz550 from 458 win mag to 458 lott. It is a FAR cheaper route to go, and will result in a reliable gun when you are finished.

But if you really love the enfield, want to spend the money, and use a big bore specialist, then go for it.

500,

is it just as eay a job to re-chamber a cz .458 win mag to .450 Ackley as it is to chamber it to .458 lott ??

Am I right in the both the Ackley & the Lott can use .375 H&H cases run through there respective dies ??

Bakes,

Here is an article on the Lott.

http://www.african-hunter.com/site/classcart/458wattslott_01.htm

Regards,

Terry

PC,
500,

is it just as eay a job to re-chamber a cz .458 win mag to .450 Ackley as it is to chamber it to .458 lott ??

Am I right in the both the Ackley & the Lott can use .375 H&H cases run through there respective dies ??[/QUOTE]

Yes, both are easy to be re-chambered. I use RCBS .458 Win Mag (4 dies) to load my .450 Ackley so why purchase specific dies?

PC,

With the ackley, a little more touch-up of the rails might be needed for proper feeding, but otherwise the two rechamber jobs are the same.

The advantage of the lott is that a lot of safari camps in africa have some lott ammo kicking around.

Both can use 375 H&H brass that has been FIREFORMED. That makes the brass pretty expensive, and we can get Lott brass for $21 per box of 20, so there is no need to fireform.

500,

I can't find out what the real difference between a 450Ackley and 450Watts is, they both seem to be blown out full length H&H cases. Maybe it is shoulder position?

You can shoot both 458Win and 458Lott in a 450Watts chamber, so why can't you also shoot both of them in the Ackley?

Thanks, Bill

Thanks for the replys guys.

500grains,
I could of gone the CZ way but I had the action laying around in my safe for awhile so I thought "bugger it I'll use that". I don't really notice the price as I'm paying it off as I go along, sort of like layby The action cost me $200 about 4 years ago, cleaning it up was $150, new trigger$125 and new bolt $40. I'm going down Lithgow way to see the out-laws in January, I'll go visit my gunsmith and take a photo of the action and post it when I get back.

I'll still have to think about the calibre, I really don't need a big bore in Australia, but I want one . A 375H&H will knock over any water buff or scrub bull I come across but so will a 416 rigby or a 458 Lott or a.......

Bakes

Bill M,

Ackley has a shoulder, watts and lott do not. Ackley has a bit more powder capacity than lott as a result

In theory you can shoot a straight walled case in a chamber with a shoulder, and it has been, but it is probably not the best practice.

Bakes,

Next you will want to lengthen the receiver cut, open the rails (but not too much), open the bolt face, build a new magazine box, probably build a new follower, change the feed ramp, and tune the whole setup for proper feeding. That set of work is not a trivial task on any action, but when working with the extra-hard enfield steel, it is quite a job. Probably as much as a week's worth for a competent big bore gunsmith, and a job that the uninitiated might not get right in a whole year of tinkering.

But enfields done right are very nice guns.

I have an exceptional 458 Lott although not set up as a "hunting rifle" I use it for my backup rifle in Africa while working. With the fixed Peep sights it's possible to shoot 1" to 2" groups at 100 yards. With a scope on this rifle it would be a gun I would use to 250 yards with out any problem at all. The 450 grain Barnes X bullets are very accurate, and flat shooting. I have never been able to get one to stay inside an animal either!

Having worked as a PH for quite a few years now and having seen a whole lot of different cartridges and rifles I can't think of a better rifle then the plain old 375HH with a quality low power variable scope for all Afrika hunting. If the 375HH is not enough then the 416 may not be enough better to move up to? Kinda like going from a 30/06 to a 300 mag. Might as well go to the 338 or bigger IMO.

The 458 Lott with a 500 grain soft point a stout load is a real hand full of recoil! It does however get the full attention of anything it hits. To exceed this rifles power means going to a super big bore which will be brutal to shoot in most cases. Or weigh plenty more to reduce the recoil unless it has a Muzzle break. The Lott with a scope at less then 10 pounds total weight is a tough bit of recoil to absorb. Mine has only peep sights and a 22" barrel. It weighs 9.3 pounds and has a custom made stock which helps out with the recoil significantly. My Stock is closer to a double barrel shotgun style stock, then a rifle stock.

The bigger advantage in the choice is ammo avaialbility then anything else. Try and find some 416's( any kind) in a bush camp. Then try and find some 375HH or 458 win mag( usable in the lott)! which one you gonna find easy? A very important consideration in my opinion.

[ 11-18-2002, 02:45: Message edited by: JJHACK ]

If I had a nice enfield action, I would never waste it on a small round like the Lott...

I would take advantage of that big old action and make me a 505 Gibbs Improved....and really have a thumper..That is if I could handle the recoil.

The Lott is a great round and the RSA version (3" case) is even better yet...Norma makes full lenth magnum brass for either version. Load up a 500 gr. bullet with 83 to 85 grs. of IMR-4320 and get a real 2350 FPS or better, depending on barrel lenth and your particular gun...

I don't advise this but I loaded one Lott with a 26" barrel to the point of getting a ejector mark and a almost loose primer. I think it was 88 grs. of IMR-4320, so decided it was time to cut back a little, so I cut back to 85 grs and it chronographed a bit over 2500 FPS 3 grs off an ejector mark...I settled on 83 grs for that rifle for a true 2350. Bob Francis, Westley Richards bought that rifle from me...It was a nice Mauser with the deepest red full fiddle piece of Turkish I have ever seen, and I know it was Turkish. It was outstanding.

Thanks for all the replys and advice. After much thought and research on availability of brass and other components here in Australia, and on what is writen on these pages, I've decided to build that action into a 416 Rigby. I can't really say what made me go with the Rigby over the Lott, the Rigby just wouldn't get out of my brain So I just have to inform my gunsmith of my choice and he'll take it from there. I'll be going to Lithgow in January to visit the out-law (and my gunsmith)I shall take some photo's and post them for those who are interested.

Bakes

Bakes, ol' buddy, ol' pal,
Very smart! Perfect choice for an Enfield action! Best cartridge ever offered for a magazine rifle for big game. I like the Lott, but the 416 Rigby is King of the Hill. Wise indeed you are! You will have something classy indeed when you get that built!

Cheers!

Bakes,

Do you know of Jansa Arms in Sydney.

The bloke there has a 416 Rigby done on an M17 by "their" gunsmith. I have not seen it but he told me it all works and the stock is done from one of those semi finished stocks.

Mike

Great choice going with the Rigby over the Lott. You'll be happier in the long run.

Mike
I know OF Jansa arms but have never delt with them.I spoke to a fella in Darwin who put me on to his mate in Victoria (Nigel), who is a Rigby owner. Nigel can supply me with dies when the rifle is finished, and with Rebel gun works stocking Norma Brass, all looks fine. My gunsmith has a few stock designs he can use on his pantograph (SP?)machine to make a sleek looking rifle using the original bottom metal, once he flatends it out some. But thats something I'll look at when I'm down there.

Bakes

Congratulations on choosing the .416 Rigby !! You can get a lott any old time. You will love the .416 Rigby.

[/QUOTE] So then the difference between the Watts and the Lott is case length (2.850 vs. 2.800") and OAL (3.650" vs. 3.600" per COTW). And then Ray brings up RSA Lott with the 3.000" case to really confuse me ....

[/QUOTE]

Because there is no standardisation, Lott and Watts are often mixed up. Modern reamers for the Lott are with a case length 2.850". The resulting
OAL of 3.650" fits in magazines of most rifles used for conversion. The so called .450 Express (case length 3.000" ) makes no sense with respect to magazine length and the additional powder charge.
The original 2.800" Lott was limited to that figure because only .375 HH brass was available. But now we can buy brass for 2.850", e.g. Hornady.
Another improvement of the Lott concept is the forming of a "ghost shoulder" providing a parallel neck.

470,
All I can say is no it was not a misprint, it was not blue sky, it was what the Chronograph gave me on three 5 shot groups according to my records..

My question is have you ever chronographed a 458 lott with a 26" barrel with that load, or are you just speculating?

Hi Ray,
In short I've never chronographed a 458 Lott with that load and a 26 inch barrel.
That said I've shot the 450 Ackley for twelve years and the best I could get out of it was 2420 fps with WW 748 powder and a 500grain Hornady. A two grain change in powder from 93 grains to 95 grains yielded a 47 fps gain. Which is 23.5 fps gain per grain of powder. My powder burn rate chart shows IMR 4064 as number 58 and IMR 4320 as number 60 which is pretty close. The A-Square manual shows 84 grains of IMR 4064 yielding 2387 fps with a 465 grain bullet from a 26 inch barrel at 56600 PSI with a max PSI rating for the Lott as 62409 PSI. The difference between 83 and 84 grains of powder is 33 fps with the same 465 grain bullet.
The 450 Ackley with a 26 inch barrel and the same 465 grain bullet yielded 2376 fps with 85 grains of IMR 4064 and with 86 grains yielded 2404 fps. Again a velocity gain of 28 fps per grain of powder. Pretty consistent. The pressure with the 465 grain bullet was 60900 PSI with the Max working pressure of 62409 PSI. With this powder and a 26 inch barrel, 2404 fps using a 465 grain bullet is pretty close to a max load.

Now you said that you shot 88 grains of IMR 4320 with an unknown velocity and backed it off to 85 grains for a bit over 2500 fps and then went to 83 grains for a velocity of 2350fps which is about the max velocity for the 458 Lott according to most Lott shooters using a 500 grain bullet. With the same 500 grain bullet you yielded a 75 fps gain per grain of powder. Does that not seem odd. You said you chronographed and shot 3 five shot groups with this load at a bit over 2500 fps. With all your experience my question is what were you thinking? The chronograph is your best link to pressures and safe reloading. What velocity and pressures did you think you had with the 88 grain load?
I'm not looking for a pissing match Ray but you know there will be someone out there that will now be thinking that he can get 2500 fps out of his Lott because Ray said it was three grains down from trouble and really get himself hurt.
Take care,
470 Mbogo

Bakes
I think the 416 Rigby would be a good choice. Have you thought about an improved version?
I haven't done a lot of load development for my 416/505Gibbs improved yet but so far I'm dissapointed in the velocity. 2808 fps with woodliegh 410grn solid using 142grns of 2217. In hind sight I should have got a 416 rigby improved. Probably would have got close to the same vel with a lot less powder.

The brass is a real dissapointment also "Bertram" I bought 120 pieces, about 35 are 50grns heavier than the rest and the remaining are only within 15grns of each other. different rim thicknesses also which I had to get truned down. I had to do the primer pockets as well, some were to tight. There is a step just in front of the web in the Bertram brass and only about 30 cases was this step centred, the rest were off to one side.

Bertram brass seems to cause troubles, I have tried to use it in my .416 Rigby with no success. Therefore I will change to another brand.

.416 w you may have to get some horneber brass to get your higher velocity.

Paul I think your right, just a matter of money.

.416 sw just order 20 cases per time to make it easier on yourself, say 20 cases every couple of months.

470,
I can't disagree with you altogether, but I am not anybodys guardian angel and I stated which loads were to hot and which ones were not in MY rifle, this is a rule of handloading...

Now you and I both know that 82 grs. of IMR-4320 might be way to hot for someones tight chambered rifle and be mild as goats milk in one of our guns, and that any load should be approached from below max by 10%....

Some folks are destined to blowing themselves up and thats not our responsibility....Mostly old handloaders like us do that it seems..not the newbies...

Now as to my loading, I loaded that particular rifle until I got a definate extraction mark, that came before the flatening of primers which is a little unusual, and that is what I normally do because it is a fairly sure indicator and has worked for me for years, when combined with primer inspection and sticky bolts.. As to the chronograph jumps I find that a pretty feeble indicator as I have seen those jumps at all stages of load building. I also try to use powders that fill the case and that are not likly to destroy a rifle. I will also suggest that a sticky bolt, a extractor mark, a flattened primer, and even a leaky primer is a long way from a blown gun, it is a warning that you have passed the acceptable by a good deal and should cut back a grain or two...

Some barrels are fast and some are slow, some actions are stronger than others, mostly because of the chambering and fit...This gun would have shot the 85 gr. load, but I suspect brass would be short lived, but the primer pocket was still tight regardless of the velocity and the ejector mark, in this case..Furthermore David Miller used up to 84 grs. in his 458 Lott and printed that load in Rifle magazine, so you see I was not that far out of line.

I just reported what happened with a load and gun like everybody else does and you arbitrarily decided it was reckless of me, yet you have not tried the load, nor have any idea where it lies in relation to the rifle it was fired in....Now that being the case then YOU should never quote any load of yours on this forum, nor should myself or anyone else and, in fact, that may be good advise, in fact it is good advise...but do we want to get to that point??

Like I said, I agree with you for the most part, I respect you knowledge, but I take your stern warning to be an over reaction in this case, much the same as with the 95 grs. of IMR-4831 in the 404 Jefferys, which I'm still using and have been for tha last 20 plus years, and it won't damage any 404 that I have shot... I,m beginning to depict you as a reactionary perinoid, absolutly no flame intended....

Ya Ray whatever.

470 Mbogo