Gearhead Jim,
The M/70 extractors are not cast, they are MIMed (metal injected molded). This is a very good process which will give you a high density material. They are made of 17-7 PH stainless steel and then heat treated to a spring temper. They are extremely durable and you should not worry about snapping them over the rim when single feeding, they are designed to do that.

Good shooting,
Headache

I have a CRF, DG rifle that will hold four down and one up. However, the only way to get the "one up" is to drop the round directly in the chamber, since there is no room in the magazine for number five to let the bolt face catch it. It has never failed to work, and the "one up" has always come out, caught by the extractor, just like it was fed from the magazine.

I have been told, however, that this is an absolute no-no with a control round feed rifle. Is this true? If so, what do you do if you can't get that last round under the extractor?

BTW, the gunsmith that made the rifle says he builds all his rifles so you can do this.

GAH,
There's at least 2 ways this can be done. One is to have the extractor beveled to slip over. the second is that you can do the "mauser" way.. drop the round in, close the bolt as far as you can with your right hand on the bolt, take the fingers of your left hand, and push the extractor IN about 1/2 ro 2/3 of the way back from chamber, and make it bend IN to lift the extractor over the casehead.

KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER

about the only crf i've seen that is hard hard to do this with is the cz 550 rigby... pretty hard to get the extractor to lift that high

jeffe

On rifles where the extractor is just a bit too stiff to get the bolt to close with the finger squeeze method , just withdraw the bolt and stick your cartridge into the bolt face , then re-insert bolt and cartridge along with it.......

Kinda slow and clumsy , but for the first shot up , it don't make much difference.......

The extractor on my recent production Winchester Model 70 .375 is beveled to allow the "drop it in and force the bolt closed" method. The owner's manual recommends it and I have tried it a few time with normal results. But that crappy cast extractor on the new guns gives me the creeps, I will not use this technique very often.

My gun now holds 4 + 1, normally I just load 4 and keep the chamber empty until on the stalk, then chamber a round. 4 shots should be plenty.

If you really want to get the extra shot but without stressing the extractor, there is another technique: just put one round in the mag, then chamber it and make sure the safety is fully on. Keeping the muzzle in a safe direction, turn the gun upside down and open the floorplate. Fill the magazine and close the floorplate. Done. NOTE: when filling the mag from the bottom it is necessary to stagger the rounds properly, if you get it wrong then they stick out too far and the floorplate won't close. Dump them and reverse the stagger.

George-
The current Winchester 70 big bores, as you said, only hold 3 + 1. The gun I purchased three years ago would not feed, and Winchester could not make it feed, so they sent me a new one that also would not feed and still did not feed after being returned to them for more work.

In disgust, I sent it to Mark Penrod who did some work on the receiver but also installed a different mag box and follower. It now feeds perfectly and holds 4 + 1. The new parts appear to be Winchester manufacture but different design.

Someone, probably Mark, told me that the older 70 big bores held 4 + 1 but at some point Winchester decided to use just one mag box and follower for all the magnums as a cost saving measure. So now the guns hold one round less and many of them don't feed. Pathetic.

Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what parts were installed so I can't tell you what to order. Also, I don't know if a 70 that feeds properly with the 3 rd mag would need any gunsmithing to install the 4 rd mag and different follower and then make them feed. Good luck, and thanks for all your advice in the past.
Jim

Thanks, Jim. I'll try to get a hold of Mark.

George

Here's what I do...

I fill the magazine with the first three .375's.

The fourth one won't fit, but I can push it down partially into the magazine with the fingers of my left hand while using my right hand to begin closing the bolt.

When the boltface contacts the cartridge head, I let the round slide up under the extractor and continue closing the bolt.

Voila! Fully loaded rifle, and no stress on the extractor.

However, my Mod 70 will close over a manually chambered round with ease.


Rick.

My old push feed M-70 holds 4 375 cartridges down .



I wonder if a M-70 mag box for the 300 Ultra couldn't be used to increase capacity........?

Rick-

Thanks for mentioning that, I had noticed my 70 worked that way back when it held 3 + 1 but I forgot about it when the mag capacity increased to 4. So I just tried it with some dummy rounds and your technique also works with my 4 rd mag. Now I can load the full 4 + 1 with no stress on the extractor. Bravo!



We can now abandon the technique of chambering a round and then filling the magazine from the bottom that I mentioned above, unless your mag is so darn tight that Rick's technique won't work.



The next exercise is to increase my shooting skill so that I never need more than One round.

Fat chance.....

Jim

The M-70s and Mausers can be modified to jump the round as stated on the above posts, however these modifications due to metal removal,tend to weaken the extractor and make them prone to breakage...

The better solution and the only sensible solution is Jeffes #2 solution..Pinch the extractor in and over the round...or place the round in the bolt face then close it, same solution, different route....

Let's say some critter is boring down on you...just throw the cartridge in and slam the bolt closed.

If you can't do that, get it fixed or throw the damn thing in the trash.

One day we just HAVE to have spring steel extractors, and the next day we can't use them.

What's the problem? I have about 6000 rounds through my AR15 match rifles, which are push feed. I just put a round in the chamber and let the bolt slam closed.

I also shoot 600 yards with a Remington 40X single shot and do the same. I have about 2000 rounds of .308 through it. Doesn't seem to cause any problems that I can see.

Will:
Glad some-one finally said it! A CRF rifle that won't close on a chambered round is just as dangerous, or worse, than a non-CRF for dangerous game. It could get you killed!

You don't HAVE to snap it over a round every time, or at all, but when the sh!t hits the fan, you must be CAPABLE of doing so.

Just my $0.02

Will, a spring steel extractor has nothing to do with the rifle's ability to single feed a cartridge.

Chuck

I don't agree, In therory what you say makes since but only in theory, but in reality it is just as fast to push one down in the magazine and close the bolt as you have to close the bolt anyway..I believe this method is has less of a fumble factor and it can be done without taking your eyes of the charge and the gun can be at any angle, not so with the dropping of a round in the chamber..

That's the way I see it and it works for me so I won't be changing it, and my extractor will not break. but to each his own.

Ray again I agree 100%. I also think the "fumble factor" is lesser if you load a new round to the mag instead of having it loose in the action..
But in the end, it all depends on what you are used to. I too will not alter anything to my extractors because I know it will work for me..

Ray,

My point was that part of the reason that the cast extractors are "no good" is that all the flexing from snapping it over a cartridge rim will fatigue it and will eventually break. I'm not sure that is true unless the rifle is used a lot more than I use one, but okay....

There is minimum stress on any extractor from normal use. If any extractor is going to hold up to snapping it over a chambered round, the spring steel one should be it.

I have enough trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time. Under stress the last thing I want to do is get one jammed in the magazine because of fear of breaking an extractor by cramming it over the rim of a chambered round.

P.S.

So I order a couple model 70 spring steel extractors from Williams Firearms co. (I am as gullible as the next guy). Well that was at least two months ago. Still no extractors. For awhile it was "next week" when they were going to ship. Now I can't get anybody to return calls from my phone mail and this morning the phone just rang. Maybe they have gone bellyup.

So I suppose in the end I will just have to trust my investment cast extractor or get one from Wisner.

Will (or anyone else)-
Can you tell me more about the spring steel extractors for a Model 70? The only info I have is that they are supposed to be well made but the company producing them stopped doing it several years ago.

It sounds like there are TWO companies making them?

Williams Firearms Williams makes them but I have to agree with Will; whoever answers the phone about deliveries seems totally disconnected with the production side. If your watching, trigguard can give us some better info?

Your experience with Williams is not at all like mine. I called, the phone was answered on the third ring, and I placed an order with a very nice lady. About two (might have been three) days later, my credit card was billed. Three days after that my extractor showed up in the PO Box. I installed it this weekend with minimal fuss. It is very "tight" for lack of a better word. I haven't shot the rifle since, so no word on its performance yet. I did notice that cartridges don't spring up under it as freely as the factory extractor, but I think a few rounds of "break in" will take care of that.

I think there are some people that have the attitude if it doesn't go then force it. This probably forces an extractor that's not fitted to single feed past the elastic limit. I've never had a problem properly fitting a Mauser or Win/Dakota extractor to easily snap over an already a chambered round and still CRF properly. They even hold a shell in the boltface when the bolt is out of the gun. The extractor should pivot by the collar when single feeding allowing the whole length of the extractor to absorb the stress. Not just the front 1". That's why you can help the extractor over with your thumb. The Mauser extractor is a thing of beauty but rarely fully understood. I'm sure there are more ruined by opening them up to Mag size and improperly fitting them then by fitting them properly and single feeding them often.

gunmaker

Another thought..

It's been a while since I've played with a FN solid bottom 98 and don't remember if they single feed by design. If anybody can help refresh my memory here this might clear up some old wives tales when it comes to CRF extractors and single feeding.

gunmaker

My M-70s with crf all will close on a round loaded to the chamber. They close quite easily I might add.....My P17 enfield will not do it and my 1909 argentine mauser will close on a hand chambered round.

If it will chamber that way there's nothing wrong with doing it.....I have for yerars and it's not caused me any trouble at all.

Will,
I wouldn't know about that as I use Mausers and pre 64s. Never had a extractor failure with these models and I never jammed a round in the magazine.

I have seen jams occur with folks trying to drop one in the barrel, especially when they didn't let the barrel point downward...kinda like a monkey humping a football IMO....

I have seen extractors break off the tit of the grabber on the modified extractors (for lack of a better word) because it had been modified,thus weakened, to snap over the rim of the case and as a result of that observation I chose to reload my guns by pushing a round down in the chamber as that is the way a Mauser or Pre 64 is supposed to be loaded......but to each his own and everyone must make and live with their own decisions..

Also I doubt that either one of us will let our guns go empty before we reload it, at least in 99.9% of the cases. I know I reload after each shot as a rule or as soon as the immediate threat has a timeout period....

That is very encouraging, except that my extractor is blued and thus is probably not stainless. Also, I have seen several stories in the past few years about new model 70's breaking extractors.

MIM parts can be very good if done right but it seems like there are quality control issues. An employee of the S&W custom shop told me face-to-face in February that S&W was considering dropping the MIM process for their triggers and hammers.

At $25, the Williams extractor is, in my mind, a no brainer.

Chuck

All the early Ruger 77s had to have the extractor jump the rim.

I've seen, shot, and worked on many examples of properly tuned CRF rifles with spring-steel extractors that will feed quite well without the round being pushed into the mag.

I especially liked Will's comment first we have to have them, now we can't use them.

Chuck is right too, they are a great upgrade but as DesertRam found out I don't think they (williams or wisner)can really be called a drop in part. Though the ones I've seen have been pretty well done, they still require fine-tuning.

Bart

DesertRam, I still consider it a no brainer and any extractor I had to install would go directly to a trusted gunsmith for that work. That way, the feeding could be properly evaluated. Money well spent IMO.

The Williams extractors, as Bart has said, are very well done. Have it installed and you shouldn't have to worry about a backup.

Chuck

I'd love to have the extractor fine tuned, but unfortunately there are no competent gunsmiths in my vicinity that I'm aware of. And considering that my trip to Namibia is 30 days away, there's no way I'm sending this rifle out of my sight! On this very board Matt Williams claimed the extractor was a simply installed (by any knucklehead) drop-in part, so I snagged one. I suppose it is a drop-in by definition, and I did manage to install it, and it did go right in. However, it's not a drop-in part that functions right off the bat. It does require a bit of fine tuning that any knucklehead can't do. It is a fine looking piece, and certainly stronger and of higher quality than the factory extractor. But things just ain't as "smooth" as they're cracked up to be.

I'd like to have this rifle worked over by a pro in the near future anyway, so I'm sure the proper installation and fine tuning of the extractor will be on the "to-do" list when that happens. Until then, back to the factory extractor. At least it doesn't bind the action. I'd hate to have a jam when that killer springbok is charging

Chuck

Two things folks, #1 I will not hunt dangerous game with a bolt rifle that is not CRF, and #2 I will not have a CRF bolt rifle that will not feed a free round into, and out of the chamber! I have many bolt rifles made on 98 Mauser Milsurp actions, and FN comercial actions, all are CRF, and all feed single rounds into the chamber without pinching anything, and I have never, in 50 yrs had an extractor on a Mauser break. As Will says," if the rifle will not feed dirrectly into the chamber when needed, throw it in the trash, and get a proper rifle that will, but don't substitute a push feed, for a CRF, simply to get free round chambering!"