This is probably on Mark65x55's long list of topics, but I thought I might try to beat him to it.

I keep on seeing all this bull about the .404 being better than the .416 Rem. Mag. and even the much touted .416 Rigby.

The folks that believe the .404 at a sissy 2125 fps is better than a .416 at 2400 must be smoking more marijuana than can be prescribed for health or nostalgic reasons.

Of course, that 9 thousandths of an inch difference in bullet diamter could make a real difference in trashing a charging buffalo.

Besides that, the .404 has always had feeding problems and was typically a government-issued piece of cheap junk.
Because there were 15 billion of them in service at one time in Africa doesn't prove their worth.

Okay, let's hear it.

Man. you really are being curmudgeonly tonight. Based upon your opinons expressed on the other thread, I think you should shoot 20 buffalo with each and enlighten us.

Bill,

I can see that I am going to have to open a school for trolls

First problem, wrong forum, this should be on Africa forum.

Better title would be something like "Is 404 ownership based on bullshit"

Mike

I never heard of anyone seriously claiming that the .404 had feed problems. The .425 WR? Oh, yeah! But the .404's long, easy shoulder and neck and equal rim/body diameter simply doesn't compute where bad feed comes in. Could you perhaps cite some references in the literature about bad feeding .404's just in the interest of scholarship? I've read a bunch but don't claim to be an expert on this.



Also, the 2150 fps load is the old British standard. Most guys today use the modern German loading at 2400. At this velocity, any ballistic difference among the three is moonshine, so arguments about "superiority" have more to do with cussedness than logic. No animal could tell the difference.

At this velocity, any ballistic difference among the three is moonshine, so arguments about "superiority" have more to do with cussedness than logic. No animal could tell the difference.

---

I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any of them!

Will,
Thanks for asking I admit I tend to research the crap out of things I know very little about Its just my nature I guess. That and I like to do things right the first time, my grandfather would say "you don't have time to lick the calf twice". Having a bad case of elephant fever, and at this point having only the funds to talk about it, I'm trying to learn all I can about elephant hunting and the tools of the trade from those who have been "among them".

I take it your a big fan of the .416rem? Care to tell me why? And about yours?

BTW, I'm not smoking nothing, but a BudLite or a shot of Crown would be nice.

Bill,

I think you are standing way to close to Mike375!



Besides, doesn't your sig say something about no such thing as too much gun? LOL!

Wil, Wil, Wil. My we've been grumpy lately.

Let me start. First where do you get a loading of 2150? The 1910 Jeffery Catalog lists the velocity as 2200fps and 2400 fps for a 400 grain bullet and 2600 fps for a 350 grain bullet. Our own Master of Grumpery, Ray Atkinson, says 2600 fps plus is easy with a 400 grain bullet although I don't quite know why anybody would want to do that. I load mine at 2300 and am happy.

Secondly, never heard about any feeding problems with the 404. In fact I have only heard the opposite, that it is the smoothest feeding of all of the large bolt actions. Particularly in the Mauser that it was designed for.

Alot of 404 were made. Thousands, not only because they were cheap but because, like the 375 H&H, they were the best bolt action cartridge available at the time. The 416 Rigby was so highly thought of that less than 200, total, 416 Rigbys were made in the first 70 years of it's existence. It wasn't until Paul Roberts started to make them on the cheap BRNO action in 1980 that they gained any popularity. Volume makes for lower price.

As to the 416 Remington, we all know that they are now built on cheap pieces of junk, have pressure problems and feed like crap. Other than that they are fine.

Happy?

Will,
You are my good friend but today you are full of shit!!

They are both equal, other than the 404 does not have a belt if that means anything...

The 404 is the slickest feeding of them all, that torpedo feeds and I can get 2653 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet, 95 grs. of IMR-4831 and a 215 Primer.....the 404 has the cross section on the 416 and it proved itself beyond doubt for a eon or two and with a very light loads...The 416 Rem cannot get that kind of velocity, nor killing power on paper anyway ....that said, as you know I shoot both and have for years and given a choice, it wouldn't make any difference to me which one I picked up.

But you know all that and just needed to stir up some doo doo, didn't you?

He's Baaack!

Bill,

I load my .404 to 2350 +/- with 400 grain Woodleigh solids and Swift softs. It feeds okay too. Not sure if it is any better than the Remington or the Rigby, but its going with me in a couple of days.

I'll smoke some dope then shoot something large with it and report back.

I love you man!

I would like to see weatherby chamber the .404 in there snow camo DGR rifle, then I reckon it would be the = of the great .416 Rigby....have I been on the bong or not

Does snow camo come in handy in where you live?

I here by claim credit for getting Ray out of sick-call.

Nothing like bad-mouthing the 404 to get things stirred up, heh?

I think the .404 gets a bad rap on feeding because Ruger dropped plans to make them when they intr. their RSM. Rumor was they couldn't get it to feed, but I think it was more that no one made ammo for it.

And we all know how much intelligence it takes to start a rumor! It is hard to imagine that Ruger couldn't get a .404 to feed given how well hundreds, if not thousands, of Mausers have been happily digesting the old boomer for pert' near a century. More likely, the reluctance was due to the fact that the only specs on the .404 come from Europe. There is no SAAMI criteria for the cartridge and without such the legal department at Ruger-HQ most likely squashed the idea.

I think that Ruger ran into some variation in dimensions in brass, dies, reamers for the 404, leading them to drop the caliber. Nothing would tank the company's repuation faster than a .404 which will chamber Norma ammo but not RWS!

I cannot comment much on the 416s, while living in Alaska my neighbor and good hunting buddy kile had one in 416 taylor and aside from seeing him shoot game with it I have little 416 experiance. But look around... the 416s have plenty of success. Unlike most 404s I load mine low at 2150-2200. I like at that velocity and it hits plenty hard. I see no difference in how hard it hits from my 458 lott at the same velocity. With its low recoil it makes for a great woods/brush rifle IMO.

Gentlemen
I could think of haveing one 404 Jeffery and one 416 Rigby

It seems like Winchesters custom shop thinks bit different than others and offers a 404. I hope other US makers jump on this train, if not Ray can always pursuade them

I have test fired rifle's that could use both Norma, Kynoch and RWS. Correct reamer solves it all.

/ JOHAN

Fred,

I have completed my initial research for my "Who killed the .404J?" article. Along the way I interviewed an executive at Ruger who was there when the decision to drop the .404J project was made. It will be in my article. I also dug up a gossip level version, but that won't be in the article.

The Winchester .404J project is vaporware so far. They are at the they don't know they don't know stage, or were at the SCI Convention. I am thinking this won't be a quick one to market.

As for feeding I checked with Dr. Don Heath, Editor of African Hunter and .404J shooter. We have had a couple of chats about the .404. Don says that the feeding problems are not with the elder English made rifles, but rather with current custom rifles. Insufficient attention to detail.

jim

Good work, that man! Where will it be published?

Mickey 1, it is true that Paul Roberts made the 416 under the Rigby name on a BRNO 602 action. I had one and it was a fine rifle. However, Mr Roberts made less than 100 416's on any action prior to selling the name to the California concern, so I do not think he made any impact on the caliber through flooding the market with 416 Rigby's, cheap actions or not. BTW, Robert's prices on the BRNO action 416 started a $10,000 and went up according to options. Cheap?

Joe

Maybe flooding was a bit optimistic. But adding 50% of the previous 70 year total in 10 years is a lot of increase. By the way, I mostly wrote that to make Wil happy.