I remember reading many years ago about Jack Lott and his 475 LTD, which I think meant Lott Tanner Dinosaur. That was a 577 made rimless and necked down, more or less another version of the 585 Nyati.

From what Rob has said the 600 OK is the maximum case size usable in "rifle" actions.

Sooooo, have we now come to a dead end

Mike

A .700 rimless is also possible with the new .800 bolt diameter actions. Getting Horneber to make he cases is no big deal, and pac-nor will do the barrels for a small tooling charge. 1200 grains could be pushed at 2200 to 2400 fps. Probably it would need to be set up for 50BMG primers for reliable ignition. That also means a stronger firing pin spring.

You first.

There is my 700 HE.Built from BMG brass.Have some done already.Would need a larger action than
600 OK..The one on the right in the picture with
1000 grain bullet...Low pressure loads would do
2500 cfs...Max loads would do over 3200 cfs.
A straight belted case...Ed

What is the rim diameter and cartridge overall length of the 700 HE?

500grains--Loaded length is 4.6 in. with
1000 gr bullet. Case is 3.85 in. Rim is .790, but can be rebated to any size down to about .740. Case could be shortened also.
Brass is the strongest being BMG and big enough
primers for large powder charges.Full load of dense ball powder is 320 grains.Ed.

In terms of a repeater you are going to be limited to maybe a 4 inch magazine because if the bolt comes back any further you will hit yourself in the face

Mike

Mike--Us short necked guys don't have that problem.HaHah.The bigger rifles have the action
lengthened forward, like McBros 50 cal(which is close to 5 in loaded) that I handled.No interference problem.
My Enfield in 458 HE strokes 5.1 inches
with different bolt stop(Cartridge is 4.3 loaded),
and no problem.Ed.

Hubel458!

Is the .700 HE a full length BMG case opened to caliber .700?
And do say that it is possible to get 3200 FPS with a 1000 grainer? How long barrel?
And is the Granite mountain action big enough for the .700 Hubel Express???

Thanks! // Overkill

Basically for right now your really limited to a McBros/EDM ( repeater or SS) or a Farquarson ( special order B. Searcy) action for any of the .700's. Even a GMA action will only clear a .745 case and depending on the length of the loaded cartridge there might not be height in the action to let it feed up the ramp! I literally ran out of room with the 600 OK-1 in a CZ550. The GMA will just take a 600 OK-2 or -3 ( 3.3 inch case).
While the Montanna PH will apparantly have a .800 bolt, what will the actual Barrel diameter be and what threads will they use? They had better be scaling up the action ring and threads at the same time as the bolt or you'll be in big trouble fast with a .700. There is not alot of metal left in the barrel once it's treaded if it's got a std Mauser 1.100 major diameter.
I think the next step will actually be necking down the .600 OK series to .510 or .45 for ha ha's-Rob-Rob

Overkill--Rob is right about action size.You can
not put BMG based or size cases(My 700 HE or 12 GA from Hell based on my case) in actions with only Mauser 1.1 inch threads...Or Rob's 700 BMG
improved.It needs a 1.25 thread and an .850 bolt
or more, for good clearance.That velocity is with 32 in barrel.There is a lot of powder to burn.
The next step is Rob's 600OK/2 for the available
actions, without going to BMG size actions.Ed.

Ed- I have been distracted lately with the 600 OK and need to send you the loot for your 12 Guage cases! I need to start on the 12 Guage from hell! Can you E-mail me your address again as my computer was just upgraded and I lost some mail.-Rob

I just talked to Montanna Rifleman and their action will use 1.125 major diameter threads and 16 TPI. A .700 is out of the picture on that action based on those dimensions!-Rob

So for a .700 you most have a big .50 BMG action as MC MILLAN.

So the .600 OK-2 on a Montanna Rifleman action is the biggest and most powerfull normal "rifle" that is possible with a weight that you can carry?

The most powerfull "rifle" cartridge have my name

Rob,
What is your 12 ga from hell? I know there are rifles here in 727/50BMG. Is that the same as yours?

Karl.

Karl- The 12 guage from hell is a Kalifornia legal idea of mine. It's basically a smoothbor. 727 barrel that fires a 2000 gr weight- foreward bullet from a .50 BMG case. It will also actually chamber and fire a 12 guage shotgun shell. I'm building it to give Dianne Feinstein and her ilK the biggest Hemmoroids I can! It' very politically correct!
Overkill- Once I get my hands on a Montanna PH action( Mine will be numbers 3&4) we will see what can and can't be done! My guess is a 600 OK-2 may work. In any event you need to start saving your Kroner!-Rob

[ 06-04-2003, 07:58: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Just a word about 50 BMG or a 700 BMG. A very good gunsmith in Norway will make an enlarged Mauser 98 action(made specific for the requested caliber) for whatever you need up to and incl the 50 BMG round.Therefore a huge 98 action is possible for a 700 if anyone is interested...(several thousand $$).
I have ordered a new rifle in 577 Tyrannosaur caliber based on a super magnum mauser action made specific towards the 577 T-Rex use: 11000 $ and a delivery time of 10 months...

UlriK- Since most of the .50 BMG varients 600's and 700's are .805 at the base or close to that, the action ring itself must be at least .835 or that cartridge will never lever itself up a ramp. If it's a single shot then maybe you can get away with .815. A true Mauser that will scale to that ring dimension would approximate the old Mauser Anti-tank action size! I've seen guys who actualy have bored out the inner action ring ( and locking lugs) to accomodate their versions of the .50 BMG. Frankly that scares me to death! God knows I've thought of that too, but common sense has always overtaken my desire to do something like that! The other problem is of course the barrel shank dimension. The thread major diameter for a .50 BMG in my mind needs to be at least .300 larger in the radius than the maximum sixe of the case. For a .50 BMG that means a minimum of a 1.4 inch thread major diameter. Thus, I always wind up exactly in the same place!A McBros repeater action ( 1.5 inch thread)! Three down and one in the pipe for $1750.-Rob

[ 06-04-2003, 20:20: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

I couldn't resist.
Below is a 700 ES (Elephant Stopper) - 600 Overkill - 577 T-rex and a tiny 416 rem.


The 700 ES is .786 rim and belt diameter and a OAL of 3.400 Any takers?

Fritz454--What is the 700 ES built from.It looks
like a shorter version of my 700 HE(which is
3.85 inches long), that I built from BMG brass.
My rim and belt is .790 as of now.Ed.

Fritz454!

How would a 750 grain flat nose bullet in caliber .620 look like? For the .600 OK
What SD will a 750 grainer have? It does not matter if the SD is low when it is a solid.

Thanks!

Ed,
It's not based on anything. Basically a scaled up 600 OK. I put a chunk of brass in the lathe, wrote a quick program and presto the 700 ES was born. I had no idea it was so close to your 700HE. Great minds think alike.
I also wrote programs for an 800, 900 and 950. If I get a chance I'll turn those as well but it was all for a good laugh. The guys in the shop laughed their asses off when they saw the 700 ES. The biggest bore most of these guys have is a 7mm rem mag so this looked a bit extreme.
OverKill - The SD would be .1265 for a 750 gr .920 cal bullet. It would be somewhere around .800-.850 long.
John

Fritz--That is a neat way to make them.It would sure be great if brass cases made like that,
could could have some process done to them to
make them real high pressure, like hammered and drawn brass.Ed.

Ed, with turned cases I would keep pressures less than 32000 psi. There are some people who push it higher but I think case extraction would become a real problem. The tool marks are radial and would want to stick to the chamber. Drawn cases have the stamping grain along the length of the case. Besides this the drawn brass has a grain structure that lends itself to the brass returning to its original shape and size. It shrinks back after firing thus releasing itself from the chamber walls. JMHO

Here are a few more cases just for laughs.
Left to right .950 - .900 - .800 -.700 - 600 OK - 577 T-rex and a 416rem. The .800 has a belt that is a bit off. I transposed two numbers on the program but you can get the basic idea.

Fritz, Ed- It's a sick world and We are perfectly at home in it! John-can you post a pic of the 600 OK-1 and OK-2 for comparison. Kinda the 38 special Vs 357 Magnum of Overkills!-Rob

Rob,
I'm running some 600-1s now and will do a side-by-side picture as soon as I have some 600-2s ready.
I may even add in a 600-3 just for fun.
John

Rob--Fritz--Here is my surprise and lesser babies.

First is 458 Win--Second is 458 HE--3rd 550 HE--

4th ,my surprise, the 700 HE Long,4.25 in long--

5th is 700 HE at 3.85 inches, the regular one----

6th is a 3.4 in version--7th is 3.2 inch version--

8th is a 2.9 inch version...The long holds 360

gr of dense ball powder, and will get 1000 gr

to 3400 fps if you want.Ed.

That is very very scary. I think I just soiled myself.

Ed, Fritz- My 700 RLG Improved holds 330 grs of water and unfortunately has no belt, just a .030 shoulder to headspace on! I developed it long before I had the idea of using a belt for the ,600 Overkill series.! I have to say that ED's method of producing a belt sounds good to me! There are at least 5 different versions of the 700 on the BMG case that I'm aware of. However, other than Jerry Quintiles, I have heard of no one using any action for these Behemoths other than a .50 BMG derivative. Jerry swaged his case down to .720 or so and actually used a M98 action with the inner ring and locking lugs bored out. His case had a severely rebatted rim as I remember.-Rob

hubel458:

What barrel length .700 long need to put 1000gr bullet 3400fps ??? I am just curious because much bigger cartridge 14.5x114 put also 1000gr bullet little faster (3540fps) from 48" tube. I know your is .700, 14.5 is .577, also working pressure will make a big difference, but I am still curious . . .

Jiri

The 700 is large enough to be an incendary round.
Shoot you Ele & cook him at the same time!

Jeri--A 36 inch barrel.Of course the 700 caliber
has some effiency advantage over the 14.5 mm
round you mention. That straight design will get the most from ball powder.For a hunting load
you use the slowest powders for 2400 fps.Or
charcoal.HahHa.

ROB--I figured as long as a BMG size action will be used, might as well make case longer if possible.I only have few cases as I can't find a
supply of blank BMG brass.

JR and D-- It is a lot of fun also..Ed

Gentlemen -

My company contributed to the development of the 120MM main tank gun, which you probably know is a smooth bore using a sabot housing an 80MM 14 pound dart. Muzzle velocity is 5600 fps. Accuracy is under 1 MOA further than you can see with a good spotting scope. A man can easily carry and manipulate one of these caseless rounds...even in the close quarters of a tank, and this would simply be impossible without the sabot technology.

The sabot cuts the charge weight in half by allowing the use of a faster propellant in a bigger bore, and the same can be accomplished with big bore hunting rifles. For example, if we neck up a 50 BMG to .700 and mount the standard 750 gr 50 cal bullet in a 70 cal sabot, the charge weight is reduced by 1/3 to 150 grains. It still churns up over 13000 FP of muzzle energy from a much shorter case. This is a 1.6 inch column of powder in the .700 inch cylinder provided by the BMG case.

Things get more interesting if we cut this powder column to just 1 inch for 94 grs of extruded powder or 97 grs of dense ball powder. Trust me...this has brought our powder burn rate up to H110, W296 and Lil'gun. Even the 94 gr charge will top 11,000 FP at 63000 psi. That's 2345 fps for the 900 grain .600 caliber bullet, or 3150 fps for the 500 grain .458. Because of the increased burn rate and improved expansion ratio, we need only an 18.5 inch bbl for full efficiency.

To make this round we just cut a couple of inches off the 50 BMG and deburr the mouth. The thick brass at this point gives us our headspacing - NO crimping. The very hard but compressable nylon composite sabot seats in the rigid neck so firmly that it is 300% stronger than a factory crimp die. COL obviously depends on how long a bullet you want to shoot, but its pretty clear that it will fit in actions and magazines that take rounds 3.6 inches long.

Oh yeah...make your bullets out of anything...they never touch the bore...

Sabot--On the round described as shortened,and headspacing on mouth, have you reloaded multiple
times to see how long brass last, with that quick powder...Powders that reach peak pressure quicker
shortened the life of the brass in my wildcat
458 HE, and thinned case ahead of the base.ED.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
Ed, with turned cases I would keep pressures less than 32000 psi. There are some people who push it higher but I think case extraction would become a real problem. The tool marks are radial and would want to stick to the chamber. Drawn cases have the stamping grain along the length of the case. Besides this the drawn brass has a grain structure that lends itself to the brass returning to its original shape and size. It shrinks back after firing thus releasing itself from the chamber walls. JMHO<br /><br />Here are a few more cases just for laughs.<br />Left to right .950 - .900 - .800 -.700 - 600 OK - 577 T-rex and a 416rem. The .800 has a belt that is a bit off. I transposed two numbers on the program but you can get the basic idea.<br /> <img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid64/p14c3acc0379dac91c93619eb8d3e930d/fbfec8a8.jpg" alt=" - " />

fritz can you create foundations for cartouche so that I to try them to reproduce them
.950. 900 .800 .700
I do not see that hut I can use for these calibres?
Mercie for all information which you would stink give me

Fritz,

Rather than going for the round numbers, you should be producing true four and eight bore smokeless rounds (1.052" and .835" respectively)...just for the sake of tradition.

Best,

John

wow, old thread reborn. Hey, I remember The guy (dont remember his handle) that makes the Waffenfabrik actions says he can make an action big enough for those toys. Wow, seems like the 12gaFH dont have poo on the .900 round at the top of the thread. Dont ask me to shoot that 900 though. that 577 T Rex in the pic looks like a 308!!

Where to go is up, Ie get an intermediate action
size to use shortened version of 700HE,
3.25.The 700H. Keep it simple.
Gixxer-I have a 900HE belted case built from
20mm HS brass. It will take full pressure,
twice what a turned cases can take.It is
on right in picture, next to my 700
in #3 place. Hope build one and
test it one of these
years...Ed.