THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM BIG BORE FORUMS


Moderators: jeffeosso
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Energy Transfer Login/Join
 
Overkill
one of us
posted
All guys say that the best "stopping rifle" is the 2-Bore. But why? A 3550 grain slug from a 2-bore at 1350 fps will have a energy of 14370 ft.ibs. And the new .600 Overkill with a 900 grain bullet at 2700 fps (if possible) will have a energy of 14572 ft.ibs. And the 2-bore have a bullet diameter of .1300 and the .600 Overkill is .620 so if the Woodleigh expand to the double orginal diameter it will be a diameter around .1250

So is the 2-bore a better "stopping rifle" than the .600 Overkill [Confused]

I think that if the .620 diameter 900 grain bullet at 2700 fps from the .600 overkill will stopp any animal better than the 2-bore because the bullet will stay in the animal with the same dimaeter as the 2-bore (expanded diameter) and it have more energy than the 2-bore. And the 2-bore will go through any animal and not leave all energy in the target.

Then this...!

Let us compare the 2-bore with a .700 BMG IMPROVED

The 2-bore have a energy of 14370 ft.ibs And the .700 BMG IMPROVED will have 18000 ft.ibs if you load a 1200 grain bullet at 2600 fps. And if the 1200 grain SP bullet in the .700 will expand to the double orginal diameter. Then the diameter is .1400 or more when the 2-bore is .1300 and not expand. And the bullet from the .700 will stay in the animal. Is it a better stopper than the 2-bore???
 
Posts: 751 | Location: sweden | Registered: 15 January 2002Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 04:53: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
Zero Drift
One of Us
Picture of Zero Drift
posted Hide Post
-
 
Posts: 10780 | Location: Test Tube | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
Paul H
Moderator
Picture of Paul H
posted Hide Post
Overkill,

With all this talk of energy transfer, one would be led to believe that perhaps you were a former employee of Enron? [Wink]
 
Posts: 7213 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
<deranged-havoc-aficionado>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
Overkill,

With all this talk of energy transfer, one would be led to believe that perhaps you were a former employee of Enron? [Wink]
Paul, what are you talking about? They were much more interested in money transfer [Smile]

But these arguments are all interesting, I am pretty sure I laid out a non-specious argument that the shooter absorbs essentially the same energy as is delivered to the target in a post a little earlier today.. There ain't gonna be one answer on the stopping ability, too many variables. To compare in a meaningful way, you would have to assume equal trajectory-meaning direction of bullet flight and point of impact. Then, you can begin to get consistent analysis and it ain�t gonna be the same round every time. I could kill an elephant with a � inch diameter piece of Styrofoam hitting it on its foot if it was going fast enough, just the pieces of bone exploding out from the foot would kill the elephant. Now this is a very strange piece of Styrofoam, it is identical in all ways to your typical cooler Styrofoam, except it can move through the air at 25 miles a second without any ill effects. So, obviously its velocity. Well, stand against a brick wall and let a fully loaded semi unpowered but rolling down a hill at a constant speed of � mile an hour. What are you going to look like after the semi stops? So the obvious answer is it�s mass.

These questions are fun, but ya ain�t gonna get anywhere without a priori assumptions of the conditions you want to use to compare the various rounds with.

In space, no air resistance, would you want to be hit by a nerf ball doing 5 miles a second?

There is one sure stopping power no one gets away with, it�s time.
rob the guy using up way too much of his time writing all of this crap, but it�s fun
 
Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 04:53: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
bullet weight, PERIOD.

[Roll Eyes]
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
Given sufficent weight, regardless of velocity,
a bullet, even with the terrible ballistics of a round ball, with the worst sectional density on the planet, will go through any living animal, causing sufficent damage to stop that animal in it's tracks.

Now, usually, given contemporary bullet making techniques, that bullet must be of sufficent diameter to cut a very large hole, if it's heavy enough to have these characteristics.

It appears from comments, research, and others experience, that this seems to occur somewhere between the diameter and mass of 1750 grains, that's a 4 bore, and the 3500 grains of a 2 bore.

Somewhere in that range, at a moderate velocity, all the bones, and flesh of african animals become insufficent to alter the course of that very large, round, ball of lead, and it proceeds to cut about a 5 inch hole, straight through whatever it hits.

This concept of the devastating results of bullet weight came from the old days, when cannons were designed to shoot 24-40 pound lead balls, with devastating results, on wood ships.

With a 40 pound ball, at sufficent velocity, you could shoot length wise through a 3 decker like the HMS Victory.

Now, if you want the ultimate stopper, increase the bore, to say a 1 bore, which should be in the 2 inch diameter area, with a 7000 grain lead slug, at a moderate velocity is going to go through a herd of cape buffalo, not just the first one.

The only problem with this plan is recoil, and taming it.

I've often wondered if a 7000 grain slug, at 800 fps wouldn't be adequate to flatten any animal on the planet, since it would just cut a giant hole, straight through...

s
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
And Overkill:
They have 12 step help programs for guys that read too much Roy Weatherby bullshit...
[Wink]
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
YOu know, OK, Saeed said it pretty well, after watching people, and shooting, the 577 TREx.

IIRC it was something like, he's not likely to hit the target he's aiming at with a 577, and, he will with his 375.

Now the cape buffalo will perhaps die faster if not hit in the nervous system with a 577, on a good shot, like a lung shot. However, a bad shot may not do him in at all, regardless of caliber, except, perhaps, for something like a 2 bore.

So, he, and I pick the 375, since it's way easier to hit the exact area you are aiming at.

Now, if you want something to stop an angry buffalo, or elephant, after you kill their friend or mate, then all this energy stuff doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You can't fire anything off your shoulder with enough energy to stop, or turn, a 2500-12000 pound animal that is totally focused on pounding you into a pulp.

Your only hope is a very good shot, or, a length wise, VERY large hole, like the 2 bore.

It's very odd to me how we buy a bunch of marketing crap, when, in fact, if we learn from the people that actually have used these kinds of guns, and faced these animals, we'd be a LOT smarter.

Ray Atkinson says it well. Use the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately, period.

Remember, K Bell killed something absurd like 10k elephant using a wimpy ass little 7X57 or so, because when he fired, no recoil, and he was a great shot, not to mention he knew the anatomy of
elephants VERY well. He could hit a very small target, and hit what he aimed at.

s
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
You know OK, if you are going to learn about big bores, why not learn from guys that use em?

From Seyfried's article in another thread, you might read about the 585 Nyati,
quote:
It is important to understand the difference between this and other so-called supperpower cartridges. Things like the .460 Weatherby, .475 A&M and oddballs like the .495 B-Round make their power claim by adding velocity to a "normal" bullet. Some have greater theoretical energy than the old .577 but do not have its bullet weight and diameter. These whip a solid through a buffalo or elephant faster but do not have that big .585-inch diameter to disrupt tissue. When facing dangerous game, bore diameter combined with bullet weight works, energy tables might not.
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002020

[Big Grin]
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
Same article, another quote one should listen too:

keep in mind, Seyfried is no lightweight to handling recoil:
quote:
I fired one round loaded with a 750-grain bullet at 2,500 fps from an 11 1/4 pound rifle offhand, from my shoulder. It was an unforgettable experience. In the fraction of a second when the rifle was in full recoil, I thought it had hurt me. There was the monumental feeling that the rifle had gotten all over me. I couldn't see and the whiplash felt like a giant was trying to pull my head off. The recoil sucked me out of my shooting glasses and clapped my earmuffs over my eyes, accounting for the blindness. After taking off the blinders and checking all body parts, I found I really wasn't damaged. But it's an experience I don't care to repeat.The recoil approached that of a 4 bore, but with much higher recoil velocity. This kind of horse-power would require a 16 to 20-pound rifle. This of course defeats the purpose of the project. The Nyati is supposed to be light, handy and manageable. With 750-grain bullets it will break both shoulders on the biggest elephant. Why tamper with success.


[ 08-31-2002, 10:10: Message edited by: Socrates ]
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
Overkill
one of us
posted Hide Post
Socrates...!

You are talking about elephants and buffalos. I know that a .700 BMG IMPROVED or a .585 NYATI and similar not can "KNOCK OVER" a elephant or a buff. But I live in sweden and our biggest animal here are the moose, and the most dangerous animal here is the bear. So a big bear have about the same weight as a lion. Oh I dont know what the weight on a lion is [Confused] But the bear can be up to around 150-maybe 200 kg. So I think that a 1200 grain bullet at 2600 fps or a 900 grain bullet at 2600 fps will knock it over and stopp the bear. If it is running at you.

Do you understand what I mean???

Todd E...!

Hi todd I think that number 6 is right [Smile] Bullet momentum and bullet diameter.
 
Posts: 751 | Location: sweden | Registered: 15 January 2002Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 04:54: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
Todd: your formula fails to take into a very important characteristic, bullet design.

Though you say this correlates into real game results, the VERY fact that you don't say which kind of game sort of makes the point moot.

Penetration for what is being discussed here is NOT an issue. All of the rounds OK is discussing will go through any animal on land.

He wants a stopper, and that comes down to bullet diameter, weight, with velocity a long way last.

A 375 will penetrate any animal OK is discussing.
However, without proper shot placement, it's just going to piss that bear off.

Same with the 460.

However, a nearly 5 inch hole, created by a 2 bore is going to be a bit of a different result.

Perhaps a bad shot will turn the bear...

Problem with two bores is we have mainly, and only, reputation to work on.

Not many actual new hunting results with the rifle.

By the way, many people have shot large cats with 375's and had em keep coming, including making good shots, like heart shots, and still have the cat kill em, as they die.

I can't help but think of the books I've been reading about the british navy, and the devastating effect of heavy shot, at low velocity, taking off limbs, heads, etc. It didn't require high velocity, and, at least against man sized targets, one could argue one of the best stoppers is 45 caliber acp, at about 860 fps. Sure, more velocity makes a nice splash, but that's on smaller animals.

The major flaw in the velocity argument is thinking the spectacular results achieved with high velocity on small animals is going to work the same effect on animals 5 times the weight of your car, or, even, a pissed off bear.

Every large bear taken by hunters from this area, and large is 1600 pounds and over,have required 10 plus hits to kill them, with 375's or better.

Penetration is not key. It's shot placement, then penetration...

s
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
<chevota>
posted
Is someone talking about using a 2 bore shotgun to kill DG? Todd E knows what I'm talkin about, that thread got ugly quick huh?
I had no idea a 2-bore had so much power (14370 ft-lbs). There are people that would probably say the 2 or 4 bore wouldn't break the skin of DG.
I personally don't think a 2 bore, or any slow ball/slug is going to penetrate very far, too much diameter for its weight and velocity. It would make one hell of a battering ram, but how much would it really disrupt the animals internals compared to an equivalent ft-lb bullet traveling at 2+ times the speed? And how much energy would be lost as a 2-bore breaks thru tough skin?
I guess you could compare the approx equal power of a 22 rimfire to a 12 bore 500gr ball @ 300fps. A well placed 22 can kill a small deer, but I wonder if the 300fps ball would penetrate? I�ve seen BB�s at that speed bounce off small birds.
Thanks to my �friend� I know a 300fps BB hurts like hell!
 
Reply With Quote
Socrates
one of us
posted Hide Post
Todd:
Your formula makes another mistake. Velocity can HINDER penetration, unless the bullet is properly designed.

One of the really fascinating theories is that much like trying to break the sound barrier, excess velocity can create a sort of wave of compression, that slows down the bullet more quickly, and actually limits the penetration.

Just adding velocity is NOT the answer for penetration.

Bullet design, to take advantage of velocity is vital.

The large metplat, flat nosed bullets, seem to penetrate far better then other designs, cutting large, straight holes through thier targets, regardless of sectional density.

Indeed one theory is that too long a bullet leads to instability, and less accurate penetration.

Math is nice, but, it has it's limitations.

As for OK: The arms you are discussing, in light of the animals you are worried about, are,as your nick, way Overkill.

Many people around here use 30-06's for black bear, with 180-220 grain bullets, and, they work just fine. For a stopper, any of the rounds discussed should work on a pissed off bear, small bear, that is.

Only problem is, I don't think you could shoot any of em, even if you wanted to.

I don't think I could, either, with any sort of accuracy.

s
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 05:22: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
Overkill
one of us
posted Hide Post
Guys...!

Is the .700 BMG IMPROVED a better stopper than the 2-bore??? it have more energy and will expand to a bigger caliber than the 2-bore [Smile]
 
Posts: 751 | Location: sweden | Registered: 15 January 2002Reply With Quote
Overkill
one of us
posted Hide Post
Is there "stopping power" or is it "killing power" on animals from 150 kg-350 kg. [Confused]

I belive that Tood E shoot a buffalo that was knocked on it�s ass. Am I right Tood???

The 25-30 kg barrel filled with sand that I shoot with my .460 was flying 1 yards away rom the table. And the 500 grain Hornady SP bullet explod and the retained weight was only around 150 grains. I am sure that I can knock over barrels up to 50-80 kg with a hard SP bullet like Swift A- frame at 2600 fps from my .460 because that will retain the maximum energy or momentum through the barrel.
 
Posts: 751 | Location: sweden | Registered: 15 January 2002Reply With Quote
<Norbert>
posted
quote:
momentum divided by the cross sectional area of the bullet is the correlation between this metric (measurement) and penetration
There must be something wrong with this statement. Assume a (maybe a little heavier) rifle is releasing a .458 bullet. If I place instead of the buttplate a stick of .458 diameter and use a pad on my shoulder, I think I can withstand this "penetration" ability. In any case, the penetration is far less than the bullet, although momentum and sectional area are the same.
Not taking into account all the boundary conditions, penetration is doing "work" (in the sense of mechanics). And the work only can be done by energy. A first approximation is dividing energy by the sectional area. Next would by the knowlege of drag functions in the tissue. Therefore we have some more complicated expressions to calculate penetration.
I really don�t understand this endless discusssions. More than hundred years ago military engeneers recognized, that the "penetration work" of a bullet corresponds to its kinetic energy on impact. And all modern approaches to more penetration are going this path. The only exception is the stability of the bullets flight in aqueous media (tissue), which I explained in other threads.
 
Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 05:24: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
Overkill
one of us
posted Hide Post
I am a 140 kg man... [Smile]
 
Posts: 751 | Location: sweden | Registered: 15 January 2002Reply With Quote
500grains
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Overkill,

What shirt size does a 140 kg man wear?
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
<500 AHR>
posted
Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 05:25: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]
 
Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia