I was wondering the difference in these three brands as far as quality/strength for big bore brass. I have heard both good and bad things about Bertram brass.

[ 01-20-2003, 00:35: Message edited by: Ken Cline ]

I can't believe you have heard much that is good about Bertram Brass. It is inconsistent in size, too thick, and inconsisdent in size and too thick.

I'll have to second Mickey. Bertram is second only to A-Square as the worst I've ever used. The base diameter of a batch of .400/.360 NE I tried was so oversize that they wouldn't go into the sizing die. I tried a batch of their .400/.350 NE which was of correct size, but head separations on the second shot were the norm. I'm actually afraid of this stuff.

Norma works OK I guess, but case life isn't very good. Bell is excellent. RWS is the best there is but, among the big bores, is only available in .404 if I recall correctly.
-------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bertram where to start, on my 505Gibbs cases (120)
different rim thicknesses( had to get them turned down to fit under the extractor claw), rim diameters (had to get some turned down just to fit in the shell holder), some primer pockets to shallow some to narrow(primer wouldn't go in), there is a step in front of the web - in all but 30 cases this was off to one side, 40 cases weighed 50grains heavier than the rest (yes thats 50 not 5).
one even had the flash hole missing.
I will never buy Bertram again.

That is what I have heard, not to mention the high price. I don't know how they can manage to charge that much for such poor quality. Just like Woodleigh charging for such outdated bullet technology.

Bertram Brass is soft and I would use it only if it were the only option.

Frankly, I'm kind os sold on HDS brass. Ony place I know where to get it is from Huntington's.

MAC

Not bashing the design as much as the price. Seems like a bullet at that price would be a little more advanced. I will never think of using steel jacketed solids when there are so many other better alternatives.

Bought some Bertram brass in 45-120 Sharps from Huntingtons some time ago. Worse brass I ever bought but was the only brass available at that time in that caliber. Rims too thick, had to turn on a lathe to be able to close action. Too thick in front of the rim so had to polish to fit into the action. In plain english they suck.
My.02

Ken:

In regard to the Woodleighs, it depends on what kind of big bore you are using. In doubles, which the Woodleighs were designed primarily for, and at nitro express velocities, Mickey is right. They are superb. Nothing wrong with the technology either. The softs are bonded core and retain weight extremely well. Their steel jacketed solid is, to me, the benchmark solid.

Yes, there are alternatives to steel jacketed solids - for use in magazine rifles. The various monolithic, tungsten-core, etc. solids can play pure hell with the barrels of doubles.
-----------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mac,

Re "I'm kind os sold on HDS brass. Ony place I know where to get it is from Huntington's."

HDS Stands for "Huntington Dies Specialists" (or something similar" and some of it is made by the same people
who make Bell.

From my experience with .470 brass my opinion is; Norma is the best ( just bought another 100) Bell next best, and the poorest, and unworkable for me, Bertram. I paid a premium for the Bertram and was thoroughly disappointed.

Jim

I use BELL. Never even heard of any problems with it.

In order of increasing superiority. Horneber,Norma,Bell,Bertram. I have measured a fair amount of Bertram stuff and it truly stinks! They will not work with you either.-Rob

I have to agree with all comments about Bertram brass. I purchased some in 500/450NE and 375NE a while ago and then spent hours on the lathe trimming rims and turning down the necks. I began getting head separations after only 3 reloads.

It really annoys me that an Aussie company is marketing this crap to the world. I happily pay for superb quality Woodleigh bullets but then have to make do with shit brass.

RJW

I only have experience with Norma and Mast Technologies brass. Both are superb. I used Mast brass for my 470 Mbogo and I'm still shooting with the original brass. I've never anealed any necks and I haven't lost any brass due to split necks etc. Most have been loaded ten times. I think you've heard enough about Bertram brass to scare you off. You should really thank these guys for saving you a lot of grief.
Take good care,
470 Mbogo

What started this topic was I was looking through Midway's website and noticed that Bertram brass was often the most expensive over the other two brands. I guess you don't get what you pay for in this case.

Bertram should lift there game because Horneber I think would be starting to take a little of there buisness as he is chambering for some of the hard to get stuff now, such as .585 Nyati.

Bertram really has the oppurtunity to corner and HOLD a section of the market.

What do they need to do to improve there product, would a better brass quality and tighter dimensions solve all there problems ??

I get my Bertram brass for less than $5 AUD which is less than $3 USD and this is retail price. how does that compare to what you guys have to pay for it?

The problem with Bertram brass is they are using old worn out machinery and producing the worst brass in history....

Woodleigh bonded core soft point bullets are as good or better than any bullet on todays market..I have never had one fail to expand perfectly and I have shot a whole lot of Buffalo with them..Sometimes they will wad up on a Buff spine it seems or at least I know of one case wherein that happened, but I know of several cases where Noslers and Swifts broke up on buffalo spines...for spine shots one should use a solid...

I used Woodleigh solids exclusively until GS Custom came out with a flat nose solid that just kills much better, it is a solid that kills like a soft.

I use Norma, Bell and some old RWS in my 404 and my 450-400-3"...The RWS and Lapua is the best brass in the world, but I have no complaint with the Norma and Bell which seem about equal to me...I wish Lapua would make more of the big bore brass...

Well said Macd. I sometimes forget that us guy's are not that representitive of the general population of shooters in some respects. Mainly due to the fact we have hankering for obscure and often large rounds.

Gents,
Brass is want you wants fer a price. Bertram simply makes stuff that others don't; so if you want to shoot use what you can get for the price. I have 40 Bertram 577/450 cases stamped "Coors Schutzenfest 1992" that have never failed and I shoot that gun bout 3 times a year. That is 30 reloads per case. A $7AU ea I hope that they are still going in another 10 years. I bought 200 x 310 Cadet brass at the same time and have lost about 3 from splitting.

Comparing the brass made by the old "Super Cartridge Co" which machinery Bertram purchased the quality of the brass is not as good today.

I believe that these custom brass makers make a product that some shooters may reload 3-4 times and not for the gun nuts that we are who load all week and shoot every weekend. Don't expect top quality everlasting cases from these 'custom' cartridge makers. If they stop there are a lot of old guns out there that would fall silent.

BAW, the longivity is not the problem! One must, most times, re-manufacture the brass before it can be used. The rims are too thick, or thin, the necks will sometimes be so thick the have to be reamed before a loaded round can be chambered, Primer holes missing, primer cups too shallow, so primers will not seat, and this crap costs about $120 USD per box of 20 in the states,and you have to throw half of them in the dump, or rebild them, when the same case from MAST is $60 USD,and there isn a cull in the herd, Norma is even cheaper, at about $30, touugh the big stuff isn't available from NORMA.

Woodliegh Bullets are state of the art for the shooters of ventage double rifles. They exactly match the origenals loaded for these old rifle chamberings! I don't mind paying the price for Woodliegh, they are fine.

My experiences with The different brass in forming my wildcat 458 Hubel Express.I made my
belted 3.45 in long cartridge using 450 NE brass, some rimmed(30 Bertrams&20 Bells)at first, and later after getting started some 210
of a Bell rimless version for wildcatters.I milled off the rims and made a little step on a
small spinner lathe. I made at a headspace measurement of .235;Then I swaged the rest of the case to dimensions and had a belt of .543 dia.,a
.527 diameter just ahead of belt. and had rim .532
to be the same as H&H.My design just lenghtened the 458W backwards, so to speak to a length of 3.45.No shoulder just straight.In swaging and resizing 450 NE brass it lengthened
to 3.37 from the 3.25.And I designed chamber to leave room to go to 3.45, because I was designing a cartride that I wanted to load 50 times and I knew they would lengthen.I rechamber my Ruger 77 458W.Used homemade reworked dies for sizing and 458W seating die,and after it worked had RCBS make a full lenghth resize die.
The Bertram brass would give me 5% more velocity
as it was hard in the head area and had a two step
kind of radius going from the web to the sides,
but thined out too quick and got weak about half an inch from base. 4 to 8 reloads and they would separate.I had a few of A-Sq brass but they were
too thin in the web.Then I used Bell and they worked.They had a nice gradual radius going from web to the side and with firing stretched uniformly out to the length in about 10 shots.They were relatively soft to start with but
by 5-7 firings got fairly hard.They were tough,
even though soft to start with. If I used them at first with lower scale loads in the load developement the pockets and the heads wouldn't expand but get hard.The Bertrams never expanded the heads a bit,just separated a half inch ahead.
I have 3 of the Bell ones reloaded over a 100 times.I got the rimless 450 cases, 40 from Elwood
Epps in Canada, and about a 170 from Ross Seyfried
before he moved from CO to OR. Ross tried to wildcat them into long 33 cal cartridges but being soft, it wouldn't work for him.The rimless one worked great for me also as long as I didn't full power them in first 10 rounds..I have about 150 left, the only ones like them.The Bells I ruined was from head expansion and I didn't go over 55,000 psi.Really had fun doing that,Got a 450 grain up to 3000 fps with
Bell and 150 more with Bertram.Got 350 grains to
3500,400 grains to 3300 with Bertrams,Got 500
grains to 2800 with Bells,as the Bertrams were all ruined by then.Shot about a 1000 rounds from 24" barrel and the same from 30".Above velocities
are from 30 inch.Am now going to develope a 600
or bigger wild one based on BMG bras and belted.
Won't have to worry about soft brass...or supply.

hubel458 - welcome to the forum - those are impressive velocities from the cartridge - what is the COL? what powder did you use? I ask as I have a cz550 in 458 winnie and I want to open up to get more power - do you have any photos of the cartridge or rifle? thanks for any help - KMule

Kmule-Will have my son get some pics and post
them.Overall loaded length is from 4 to 4.35
inches.I only use it in the 77 as a single shot
and then I changed bolt stop for longer stroke,
and shortened rear bridge to make port long enough.Second rifle is P-14 Enfield, and it would work as a repeater by changing the spring on the sear to behind the pivot pin and lengthening the mag well.Be perfect for Ruger #1.Only problem is there is no brass but mine.We would have to get a run made somewhere.Jay Bell would like to do at
least 20,000 to start up..Loads-WW-760 powder,
135 grains compressed for the 450&500 grain copper
jacket bullets.BLC-2 powder 140 grains compressed
for the 350&400 grain.Starting loads 10% less.
I tested 17 different powders.You folks that like the concept use the 3 inch long SA Express
as there is a supply of brass and 458 Win or Lott
seating dies would work, just need a sizing die.
And if you are going to reload many times lengthen
chamber 50-100 thousands and brass will fill it up.Cuts down trimming and gives more capacity as you go.With a cartridge if you use slower powders relative to max loads you can still do better than
other cartridges and won't have to resize full
length but use Lott dies on SA Express.You want to use double base ball powders like above a they
get more velocity with less case stretching.the ones I loaded a 100 times was with BLC-2 and 350
grain bullets.Those powders reach peak pressure
in 90 to 120 milliseconds, where most single based
of similiar overall speed on a speed chart,get to
peak pressures 50 to 80 milliseconds.That is harder on brass.I sectioned a lot of brass and it was easy to see what to do and what not to do.

I remember getting my first batch of nyati brass from bertram for my 585 wildcat. I found with some amonsgt other things I could crush the neck of the cases with two fingers.First bigbore brass I had ever bought so I hoped maybe that was normal.

Bruce also said since I was such a good customer he would throw in a heap of reject cases he doesn't normally sell. I thought what the hell would a reject case look like if his good brass is like this.

Actually I couldn't tell the difference. I sent it all to my gunsmith for rim work etc., who being part of the same bigbore fraternity as Bertram and mcdonald from woodleigh, did not make any comment on its quality.

I think they all turn a blind eye on bruce's manufacturing tolerances.

Karl.

[ 02-04-2003, 08:11: Message edited by: Karl ]

Karl-Part of the 450 NE brass for my wildcat work I got from Bruce he gave me also.Seemed the same as the others I had bought elsewhere..He said they were culls
but they helped get my project started.I showed him my wildcat handiwork at the 99 SHOT Show in
Atlanta and he couldn't believe what I had done with his culls.Only thing is they couldn't be
reloaded over 8 times.Ed.

Here fella's is 2 458 Hubel458 Express cartridges standing next to the original 458 Winchester.(we'll see if this photo link works)
The left cartridge has a 400 grain bullet, the right cartridge has a 350 grain bullet.Ed Hubel

Some more info--The 458 HE(Hubel Express)
cartridge on the left in above picture was
fired over a hundred times with 350 grain
bullet propelled by 135 gr of BLC-2.The one on the right fired 5 times.Now with 450 and 500 gr
bullets you could get about 50 reloads.Continuous
reloading makes brass stretch and it thins
about .060 ahead of belt.I checked the thin spot
with a rod set up with a pointed hook on the end
and thats how to tell when it thins to much.Ed

Rob;All-What is the smallest run of brass
Horneber would do to get it started.Since I started this wildcat and have it all tested,
I have thought it would be nice to get some made and get it around the country.This the absolute best 458 for Ruger #1, especially with longer barrel.I have loade down to 458W velocities and
you can load about 4 times without resizing.Using 458W dies which is an inch short of cartridge.Does
he make his brass a strong as Mast does now.If so
velocities I got with soft brass could even go
up safely.Ed.

Those cartridges are outrageous!

Can you tell me the velocity that you chronographed with a 500 grain bullet? Thanks.

Also, what is the recoil like?

500gr--Chronographed at 2800 fps with relatively soft brass, with a Competition Electronics chronograph.Would do better with harder brass,That is another reason to get a run of brass made.Recoil not bad as gun is weighted to
13 lbs for carry and hunting.No brake.Don't like them,rather add a little barrel length. When I did load testing on bench,I used a
weighted tripod and clamped to barrel with a wood lined clamp..On a test we shot a
gelatin block a ft square and 3 ft long with a
350 gr soft point at 3500 and block kind of disappeared in
tiny pieces. Outward thrust from gelatin block exploding broke the table it was setting on in two.Sounds like an 88 when it goes off.I studied and experimented with internal ballistics all my life.Noticed years ago that the artillery shells
had a long taper shape and when fired, when breech was opened, the shell popped out like it hadn't
been fired at all.Then I got 458W and figured out that it had right taper, but needed length and you would have the right shape chamber like artillery or tank shells.It really works.And if you back off from top loads a little, brass
lasts forever.Ed.