Has anybody ever shot the .375 H&H Trailboss load that is posted on the Hodgdon Website in their Loading Data.

This is for a 235gr Speer SP Jacketed bullet from 1091 fps to 1144 fps. I don't recall ever seeing this before but I'm old and may have just missed it.

There is also a SR-4759 load posted for the 300gr Sierra SPBT at 1925 fps.

I assume they are out there for a reason. Accuracy? These are really reduced loadings.

thanks rch

Do you mean this PDF? http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

The data has been out there in the above PDF for just a few years but slowly making its way into loading manuals.

Thus far I've only played with TB in smaller cartridges that I have a ready supply of cheap brass for as it's supposedly advisable not to go from TB back to full power in the same brass

I have never heard that about the brass. Where did that come from? I have loaded it with the speer 235 in 375 H&H for reduced recoil loads for the kids and then used the same brass for full loads and seen nothing but admittedly do not shoot a lot of 375. I have done the same with 600 OK and 577 NE and seen no issue.

Matthew

Advice about brass separation here http://www.sportingshootermag....for-mild-rifle-loads. Bottleneck rimless cases being the ones of concern supposedly. Shouldn't matter in a rimmed straightwall case.

quote:

Originally posted by Matthewx:
I have never heard that about the brass. Where did that come from? I have loaded it with the speer 235 in 375 H&H for reduced recoil loads for the kids and then used the same brass for full loads and seen nothing but admittedly do not shoot a lot of 375. I have done the same with 600 OK and 577 NE and seen no issue.

Matthew

Same here.

We have used the same brass inter changeably with reduced loads and full loads.

No issue whatsoever.

I meant on their actual reloading data web site. Here is the link: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle Go t0 375 H&H. They have one published official Hodgdon trail boss load and one published official Hodgdon SR4759 load.

Has anybody shot these? From the reponses, I would guess not.

I may try these. A speer 235 at 1000 fps published load. Go figure.

I've used trail boss for reduced practice loads in my 416 Rigby. Works very well.

I use lots of trail Boss in my 416's for practice loads kill the heck out of pigs--No brass issues at all.

Just back from the range. 20.2 gr trailboss and 200 gr sierra flat tip gave me a 3 shot .75 inch group at 50. No recoil to speak of. CZ 550. Interesting.

rch

I read the article, thanks. 375 H&H headspaces on the belt so no issues going back and forth on the same brass. The issue is only possible with cases that headspace on the shoulder. As far as the original question my load is 20.5gr trailboss with 235gr speers and Fed215 primers. That charge is in the published range. I think I settled on that because that is what my powder measure was set to throw and was good enough for me. I never cronographed the load because I don't care when I am plinking in the yard or shooting rabbits etc. What I do care about is reduced recoil for the kids to have fun with.

Matthew

Matthewx, how is your accuracy? I went with 20.2 for the same reason. My measure hit there and I left it. I got no soot on the cartridge cases so the load is sealing.

thanks rch

Actually Mathewx, the problem with bottlenecked cases separating is EXCESS headspace...NOT headspacing on the shoulder...If you headspace on the shoulder properly AND adjust your sizing die correctly too, you WON'T have headspace separation with either belted/non-belted bottlenecked cases...AND...you should STILL headspace on the shoulder for ANY bottlenecked cartridge, belted or not.


That 200 gr load you mentioned generates about 20.6 KPSI and is about 70% load density for about 1550 fs and 1070 ft lbs in a 24" bbl. Trailboss is a clean burning powder so you shouldn't have any soot anyway.

According to QL you could take that 200 gr load up to 100% load density at 28.8 gr at about 33.6 KPSI for about 1865 fs and 1545 ft lbs in a 24" bbl...

Both loads are good to use.

Luck

NONAGONAGIN: One of the best investments I made is for a set of the Redding Body Sizing dies. I basically have one for each of my bottle neck cartridges. It sizes the body with out the neck and can be accurately adjusted if you need to bump the shoulders back.

I have used body dies to resize loaded ammo that I neck sized only then found it wouldn't chamber. Generraly this only happens when I reload brass that didn't initially come from my rifle or when I have two or more rifles in the same caliber and forgot which one fired the brass.

Thanks for the info on trail boss "top end". That QL sure appears to be useful software.

thanks rch

NONAGONAGIN you are correct it is clearly too short headspace that causes the head separation but they claim and I do not believe it that since the load is low pressure the case is not fireformed and actually advances a little in the chamber each time it is fired by the firing pin pushing the case forward causing the short headspace issue. This is not possible on cases that headspace on the rim or the belt. It is possible it doesn't fireform well but the case will not be pushed forward to the shoulder a little each time because it is held in place by the rim or belt. Could you size your case too short and cause excess brass flow and eventual case head separation? Sure but not because of the low pressure load. I would like to see a sectioned case from someone who has the issue with a bottleneck case.

As far as accuracy, minute of can at 25 yards no problem. I missed a coyote at 100 yards running but I am sure it was me and had nothing to do with the ammo.

Matthew

quote:

and actually advances a little in the chamber each time it is fired by the firing pin pushing the case forward causing the short headspace issue

Actually the main cause is the primmer blows the case forward and the very low pressure of a squib load won't fire form the case.

If the rimless case (it is not an issue with rimmed or belted cases) is expensive or hard to get brass then the best bet is after each couple of shots run an expander plug through the neck and then through full length die for the calibre being used. Doing this puts a very small shoulder at the bottom of the neck.

Speer manuals have SR4759 reduced loads with the 235 gr Speer bullet.
I have used those loads for informal shooting in my 375. The lighter load gave about 2" of vertical stringing. The middle and top loads gave nice round groups and made for fun iron sight shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by RCHOUSER:
I meant on their actual reloading data web site. Here is the link: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle Go t0 375 H&H. They have one published official Hodgdon trail boss load and one published official Hodgdon SR4759 load.

Has anybody shot these? From the reponses, I would guess not.

I may try these. A speer 235 at 1000 fps published load. Go figure.

While what you say is technically true, Michael, and you are completely right, it gets into a WHOLE lot of minutia, half truths and if, ands, butt's and/or maybe's...that has been beat to death on AR and would only serve to confuse I think.

We DON'T want to confuse that entity called "HEADSPACE" as defined by certain phrases for cartridges and "head space"...that distance between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge in the chamber...which is basically what is being spoken of here...they are two DIFFERENT THINGS but are spoken of too often as being equal...and arguably...gets beat to death constantly also. HEADSPACE IS A DEFINED CONSTANT FOR EACH SPECIFIC CARTRIDGE....EXCESS HEADSPACE IS WHEN THAT CONSTANT IS EXCEEDED...and headspace is the result...gapitis and case stretching.

Suffice to say the loads that are mentioned are definitely NOT squib loads and the amount of primer impact movement, IN THIS INSTANCE, doesn't amount to but a few thou for and aft movement...UNLESS there is an excess amount of actual "HEADSPACE" as defined...NOT just case movement due to normal manufacturing tolerances stacking. There will ALWAYS be a bit of head space generated every time you cycle a round...EVEN if you don't push the case shoulder back during resizing...there will ALWAYS be a tiny amount of for/aft movement, the case will ALWAYS stretch a bit...it's just a fact of life in this game...believe me I've TRIED to get "zero case stretch" in several custom benchrest rifles and couldn't get there...maybe someone else has. If you think about it for a while you will understand why...pressure is ALWAYS pushing brass around from the INSIDE and that brass HAS to go somewhere...usually toward the case mouth because the brass is contained by steel everywhere else.

Sorry...TMI or too much minutia...hahahahahahah

The follow up is to use a Hornady headspace gauge or one you can make yourself out of a nut that fits over the neck and sits on the shoulder and measure the before and after firing amounts...usually between say 2 and 8 thou in a factory chamber...THEN...adjust your sizer to take out all but a couple thou' just for clearance sake. In a hunting/varminting rifle you don't need much more than that.

You can couch this exercise under "How to give brass a longer life", "How to achieve higher accuracy", or "How to super tune your rifle and ammo"...or a whole lot of other "How to's...they all fit.

Yeah...QL is a very cool program...it also LIES LIKE YO'...very good for PREDICTING, but also VERY GOOD for giving spurious data so you need to constantly check it against reloading manuals and online data points.

I won't say anything bad about body dies except they are a new way to extract money and you can make a body die out of the cheapest dies you can find IF you understand the principle...and peruse the forums...ALL the things I've learned the hard way over 60 odd years of playing this game can be found online...but just reading about it doesn't TEACH you the nuances you learn by DOING, then messing up, learning what the heck and why, then re-doing it the correct way...and you WON'T build up that drawer full of semi-useless things you were convinced by the boilerplate would turn your questionable rifle into a bugholer...ANY one remember the Herter's catalogue... ... But I digress...as long as you enjoy what you're doing, that's all that matters.

Luck

NONAGONAGIN,

A 308 will shorten a few thou on each shot.

Anyone can prove this by loading a primer and firing and the doing it again.

But it is squib loads that are the problem since they don't develop the pressure to fire form the case.

As a side note because I have always loved to play with reduced loads I would always choose the 375 H&H over the 375 Ruger and the 416 Wby over the 416 Rigby.

As an opposite to reduced loads I would caution trying to load a 416 Rigby to 416 Wby ballistics using Norma brass.

Wby/Norma brass is harder than Norma brass in the same calibre.

For the latest, a member of AR, Blair 338RUM, has a 22/240 Wby and loads had to be dropped back when the "cheap" Norma brass was used. I had already told him what would happen.

Shot a 1" ragged hole 10 shot group with the 20.5gr Trail Boss at 50 with the sierra 220 flat point. Shot slightly bigger group with the 230 Speer Hot-Cor's. The 220 Hornady interlocks did less well so I won't waste them.

Now I have to try some cast lead bullets that I keep for my 38-55. I will have to size them down from the .380+ that I use in the 38-55. I have a lee .376 pass through die that should work perfectly.

This is addicting. A beer can load of sure.

rch

I wouldn't try and equal 416 Wby ballistics with a 416 Rigby using Norma brass...you will blow primers.....which would be exciting, to say the least in a round that size

With my 22-240, as Mike mentioned, I had to reduce the load by 5 grains with the Norma brass over the Weatherby brass.

Whether or not a case "shrinks" or gets longer depends on many factors...the only way to know is before and after measurements...I've had cases go both ways so I won't make a blanket statement.

Whichever way it goes, IF you match the dies with the chamber by polishing or the many other ways, the next couple of firings will pretty much set the dimensions and as long as you DON'T do a lot of case squashing or load too high, the case will pretty much stop growing moer than a thou or two after the first few firings.

I've tested this many times with 223, 308, 30-06, several straight walled cases and belted mags...some of those test went 40-50 reloads on the same case and a TOTAL amount of trimming falling in the 10-15 thou range.

In any event each rifle/cartridge does it's own thing, you just have to determine each individual case...IF you've a mind to.

Luck