I built a .450x3 1/4" with a Douglas Air Gage barrel and Earle reproduction Wesson Long Range action. Despite 50 years of reloading experience and excellent results with a .450/400x3" NE, I cannot make the rifle shoot. I have tried all the techniques and loads in Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" without success. Everything imaginable has been tried as a case filler. Loads include black powder, smokeless powder and both jacketed & cast loads. The goal is to duplicate original Black Powder Express or Nitro-for-Black loads with 300 & 350-grain bullets. Typical groups ranged from 2" to >6" at 100 yards.
A replacement Krieger barrel is on hand and the question is whether to make it another .450x3 1/4" or a .45-70. It would be very helpful for those of you with actual experience with this cartridge to comment on realistic accuracy expectations. I enjoy all the work to load the big .450 but don't want to build another inaccurate rifle.
For what it's worth, I'm a professional gunmaker and have no trouble building accurate .458 Lotts, a horse of a different color for sure but I know how to build a rifle. Thanks for your comments and recommendations.
Roger

WAG and sorry if this is obvious.

Could the twist be wrong?

The one time I put a scope on my Ruger #1 to check accuracy, it shot 1.75 inch groups at 100yds. I nearly got scoped on that occasion, so now I use the express sights. I'm using a full case of H4350 behind 500gr. Horndy DGX bullets

Roger, that's a real head-scratcher. Other than the usual suspects -- crown condition, throat length, stock fit -- have you checked the runout on loaded rounds? Problem could be the dies. I found this round really needed brass and dies to be compatible.

I have built several 400s with Douglas barrels; no issues. What twist do you have. What groove diameter? I use .410.
They can't shoot that badly unless something drastic is wrong with the barrel.
I now see that it is a .450; what is the twist? Even harder to make those shoot badly. How does it shoot with heavy, 500 grrain, bullets? Or 400s. Might be the light bullets.

Roger

Does the .450 x 3-1/4" use the .45-120 case? What velocity are you looking for with your NFB loads?

Just curious to know,
Eric

Eric, the .450 NE case is a tapered case, .545 at the base and 624 at the Rim. The .45-120 Sharps is .506 at the base and .597 at the rim. My only experience with the .450 NE was when I got all hot to have one after reading a Ross Seyfried story and had a Ruger No. 1 in .458 WinMag rechambered -- yes, the .450 reamer cleans up the belt on the.458.

Thanks Bill. I didn't click on this being the 450 NE 3-1/4". I have a 45-120 in the works. I know some folks have "modernized" the 45-120 a bit a thought this may have been the case.

I have one of those actions in process. My 450-400-3.25 is enroute to a gunsmith to be fitted to the wood. Have you pulled the barreled action off of the butt stock to see if it is bearing evenly? Try a bit of candle soot on the action and fire a couple rounds. You may have an area that is a bit "proud". Same thing to the fore end.

My old gunsmith always did that when fitting action to wood.

Also, check your PM's.

Rich

Thanks for all the replies. The barrel twist is 1-20" which should be OK for the light bullets I was using. The hand loading objective was to match the original BPE loading for 300-grain bullets. My velocities with Swiss #1 1/2 were around 1700 fps. For jacketed bullets, the goal was to equal Kynoch Nitro-for-Black loads at about 2000 fps with a 350-grain bullet. These were all low pressure loads with only the case mouth needing re-sized after firing. The rifle was inspired by original Alexander Henry single shots with a weight suitable for BPE level loads. For this reason, as well as the twist rate, I have not tried 500-grain bullets. Although I am using .450x3 1/4" Nitro Express brass, the recoil of a full power 500-grain load would be brutal in a light rifle.

The twist is good for any bullet. If you are using straight black powder, that could be the issue; need to use a grease wad, or I use ten percent of 5744 under it, to burn out all the fouling, which it does. Or 4759.

Roger, that twist certainly should stabilize bullets in the original express range. In fact, the Trapdoor Springfield in .45-70 has a 1:22 twist, and, while originally developed for 400-grain bullets, certainly handled the 500s adequately, but of course at lower velocities than the .450. What alloy were you using with cast?

I tried straight BP and Duplex loads with grease wads, etc. There was no leading and cast bullets shot just as well as the Hornady jacketed variety with smokeless powder.

Thanks for all the efforts to troubleshoot the accuracy problems. However, the main thing I wanted to learn is what sort of accuracy I should expect from a good rifle with good ammo. I don't have a realistic idea of what good accuracy is from a .450x 3x 1/4" rifle or if the cartridge is inherently troublesome. The barrel will be replaced with a new Krieger and I have to decide whether to make another .450 or a .45-70 which will achieve the ballistics wanted without the hassle. I like the .450, though.

Are your group patterns random, or are you seeing vertical stringing?

No reason not to get 2 moa at the very worst; certainly not up to 6 inches; I get 3 moa from double rifles in 450 and that is with two barrels. (480 grain Hornady bullets) What is the throat like on your reamer; does it have a long taper or freebore; some double rifle chambers have that to keep pressures down. Cast bullets don't like jumping into the rifling and neither do short 300 grain jacketed. . ( Just looked at a Searcy 450 and it has no freebore/throat, and a very short leade with a fairly steep angle.) And yes, a 45-70 will do what you want with less drama.
Troublesome? As you know, when you use these huge cases made for cordite, with modern powder, and try to reduce even those, then that is not optimum, but you know that.
It is hard to believe it is the barrel though. I would try some 400 grain jacketed bullets anyway.

What is the throat like on a 450x3 1/4"? Some of the black powder chambers had generous throats to allow for heavy fouling.
Any chance the short bullets are out of the case and cocking before they contact the rifling?

I just checked my notes, bear in mind I'm shooting a double rifle with open sights. I am consistently getting 3 moa with a full load of imr 4831 and a 480 & 500 grn bullet.

I would suspect a bad barrel. Since your a gun smith it should be easy for you to fit another barrel and see what happens.

Several of you have asked about the chamber & throat. The reamer was ground to match a Kynoch Nitro-For-Black cartridge loaded with a Woodleigh 350-grain RN. As such, there is about 0.050" freebore followed by a 1.5 degree lead (taper). The throat is purposely on the short side and 300-grain bullets can be seated within .015" of the rifling and still have adequate body length in the cartridge case.

I have just chambered and installed a new Krieger barrel with an 18" twist. This will tell me whether the first barrel was faulty or whether my hand loads are at fault.

The goal with the rifle is a .450x3 1/4" BPE built with modern components. In Graeme Wright's book, he states an express rifle should be able to shoot ten consecutive rounds of black powder ammunition without cleaning & still have usable accuracy. In contrast, my loads with 120 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and a 350-gr. cast bullet lubed with DGL fouled the bore enough that it was difficult to chamber the 4th cartridge in a 5 round group. Perhaps, I'm too optimistic about BP fouling and should sort to a blow tube or wiping between shots.
Thanks for all the replies.

Both of my Searcys and my "Sweet Thang" Jefferys and another double Army and Navy, all shot an inch to and inch and a half at 50 yards and almost as well at 75 Yards..One was a 3-1/4", the others were 3"....I also bought a 20" 450-400 double from Palmer on AR and it shot some one hole shots at 50 yards, I loved that gun and it sure was different with those short tubes, I hate myself for selling it.

I had a double in .470 by Searcy that he won the world with, and it shot one hole at 75 yards..Butch cried hard and Loud and I traded it back to him for a fancy 450-400-3" and it shot outstanding, that was part of the deal..

I have never had to deal with that "minute of Grapefruit" BS with my doubles, they all shot very well indeed..besides with a DG rifle one might need to punch something real mean and nasty in the eyeball..

I have seen a couple of Ruger no. 1s that shot 1-3/4 to 2 inches average..I tried to buy or trade for them but no luck..

Perhaps doubles got a bad rap on accuracy because they are hard kickers..I will say this, a double will only shoot as good as its "WORST" barrel, and that's the way to test one for accuracy..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Both of my Searcys and my "Sweet Thang" Jefferys and another double Army and Navy, all shot an inch to and inch and a half at 50 yards and almost as well at 75 Yards..One was a 3-1/4", the others were 3"....I also bought a 20" 450-400 double from Palmer on AR and it shot some one hole shots at 50 yards, I loved that gun and it sure was different with those short tubes, I hate myself for selling it.

I had a double in .470 by Searcy that he won the world with, and it shot one hole at 75 yards..Butch cried hard and Loud and I traded it back to him for a fancy 450-400-3" and it shot outstanding, that was part of the deal..

I have never had to deal with that "minute of Grapefruit" BS with my doubles, they all shot very well indeed..besides with a DG rifle one might need to punch something real mean and nasty in the eyeball..

I have seen a couple of Ruger no. 1s that shot 1-3/4 to 2 inches average..I tried to buy or trade for them but no luck..

Perhaps doubles got a bad rap on accuracy because they are hard kickers..I will say this, a double will only shoot as good as its "WORST" barrel, and that's the way to test one for accuracy..

My HEym Safai shoots excellent with 500 Gr Solids from GS oder 500 Gr A-Frames. Powder: N560 Vithavuori or Norma MRP (lots of it -no filler is needed just sunglasses).

First rule is to check that the crown is square. When using black you need to use a powder drop tube and experiment with a compression die. Use an over powder wad of HDPE or vegetable filler like Walter's Wads. Compress with the wad on top of the dropped powder. Failure to follow these criteria will result in poor and inconsistent accuracy. Proper lube is necessary with black and you may want to try a lube cookie.

The twist rate should be fine with the lighter bullets as well as up to 500 grains. I have had success and failure with NFB loads in the past because I was using the wrong diameter projectile. I would slug the barrel and check the bore and groove diameter.

Did you try crimp/no crimp? I'm having Aaron Little finish up my two WR '97 actions and barreling both with 450 3/14 NE. Looking forward to great accuracy when the project is done. A great cartridge and is well known for accuracy.

Problem solved. I replaced the Douglas barrel with a Krieger and accuracy immediately improved with both BP & smokeless. I installed both barrels & used the same reamer but have no clue why the Douglas didn't shoot. In shooting BP and cast bullets through the Krieger, the first two shots from a clean barrel were within 1" at 100 yards. The third shot from a fouled barrel was out of the group. So, I'll either need to start managing fouling after every shot or use a grease cookie to get more lube in the bore. This is an expected & manageable problem. Now that I have a barrel that will shoot, I can concentrate on load development and loading techniques. Thanks for all the comments.

Ive been told a cut rifled Krieger barrel will shoot black and lead better than the button rifled barrels such as Douglas..I don't know this for fact just been told by a person who was in the known on such things...

I know Douglas makes damn good accurate barrels for smokeless, used many of them.