I have purchased a trim & file die for my impending .585 Nyatti and am wondering when one screws the trim and file die in to the press, do you raise the ram and have the die touching the shellholder to acheive the correct length, or does it need to be backed off the shell holder?

Also what is the exact Nyatti case length Seyfrieds article states 2.8" but what is the exact case measurement, I have just got the standard .585 CH4 dies

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PC.-To properly use a trim and file die. The shellholder must touch the bottom of the die.
The 585 NYATI dimension from botface to neck mouth is 2.815 assuming you have a JGS reamer or one traceble to that designed by Ross Seyfried ( all the ones I've seen are. Your cases must therefore be 2.805 Max in length. You can make it shorter, but don't go any longer! Be very carefull of this length as well as assure you have a neck wall clearance of .002 inches or you will develop extremely high pressures. Did your gunsmith agree to ream the neck to .613? If not lets discuss by E-mail how to solve the problem.-regards-Rob

Rob the Gunsmith is definitely going to open the neck to .613 tapering to .614 at the shoulder Juncture as you suggested. He told me that was an excellent tip and that he had encountered similar problems when he built a 500/450 that used Bertram Brass. Either way I have requested that this be done to our rifles.

He also e-mailed me a reply stating to trim our cartridges to 2.82". He will not ream our barrels until he has some loaded rounds, to reduce pressure problems could you get the barrel cut with a little free-bore???. I also asked to have our barrels bead blasted like yours. I can not use the trim & file die yet as I was sent the wrong bloody shell holder, they sent me a .577 Snider holder. Hopefully I will have the correct shellholder next week.

Rob I like you Master piece sights, are they traditional express style??

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PC- The problem is the JGS reamer will produce a chamber which will be exactly 2.815 inches long from the boltface to the mouth of the case. A 2.820 case will crimp the mouth in .005 and will cause high pressures,Unless he plans to use a separate neck reamer and plans to make a longer neck at the same time he is widening it for you. I'll bet your trim dies also make a 2.810 or shorter case. Explain this to your smith and I'm sure he will agree.
Good move on the .613-.614 neck dimension you have saved yourself a great deal of grief!
The Masterpiece sights look real cool and are not very expensive. I prefer a barrel band front sight, but had this set ready to go in the shop. Sounds like you are doing everything right and avoiding all the pitfalls I ran into.-Rob

I will just go with what the trim & file die produces Rob. In relation to your sights how do you think the Rem sights will go, they cost me nothing, I had them from another rifle, it would cost me aprox $250.00 Aus to get the Master piece sights. And with a composite stock and stainless barrel I have blown the "traditional look" out the window. I have a 2.5x compact to mount on it, so the open irons will just be for back up. Do you think I should save my cash (of which there is limited amounts) and just use Rem irons???.

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Rob please bring me up to speed on this chamber neck reaming. Your reaming it from what to .614? The chambering reamers neck is too tight? I called clymer & since the 585 is a custom job ($180.00) they will cut the reamer to demensions I request at no extra charge. I might as well get the neck cut correctly on the reamer itself & not have to re-ream the chamber neck seperately later. Same for throating. How much throat do you recomend?

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

You want to trim the cases so that the case matches the cannalures of thoes big bullets regardless of the chamber specs, so that your crimp will be the same from case to case. thats the bottom line.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I trim to 2.800 and it works perfectly. To trim more, I would have to shorten my shellholder.

Thanks for the help folks, still waiting on the correct shell holder Toys for Big Boys sent me a .577 Snider shell holder.

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Just ask for a 505 gibbs shellholder. If you ask for a 585 nyati shellholder, everyone gets confused.

Got my "gibbs" Shell holder in the mail today, trimmed and filed the first shell tonight, still needs a little fileing on this shell but it measured out at 2.824". My better half was in bed and the trim & file die was making to much racket for her at 11.00pm, subsequently "I was told what to do with my trimming & fileing".

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PC- Better get it down to 2.800. 2.824 is over the chamber length.-Rob

Just finished trimming and fileing 20 Bertram cases and with the die hard against the ram the measured case length of each T&F'd case is 2.816". I will have to get the chamber cut longer if this is not right.

Trimming and fileing is a pain in the ass of a job.

Regards PC.

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Ha!

You still have to fireform.

Fire form, I thought after running my shells through the dies they would be already formed.

The smith wants some loaded rounds before he cuts my chamber so I have not even got the gun to fire form them in. What do I do ?

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Ah Grasshopper- You now enter the strange world of the 585 Nyati. You will learn!
OK- here is the deal. First trim the cases to 2.800. use a dremel tool, a lathe or a file to grind the case OAL to 2.800. Now run the case through the fL sizer. Prime the case, add 20 grs of bulleseye and fill the rest of the case up with cornmeal cap with tissue paper and fire-form. Now for the fun, This case still won't accept a bullet and still chamber as the neck of the Bertram Brass is too thick. You have to neck turn the case till it will fit with at least .002 clearance. This is just like you do with a Benchrest gun with a tight chamber.
The JGS reamer is .608 at the base and .609 at the neck/shoulder juncture. ALA Ross seyfried. The Bertram brass is .0125 thick typically and tapers to .015. Thus ,you must neck turn as there is too much brass and it won't chamber unless the chamber was extremely sloppy. This BearClaw is exactly why you need to have a reamer made with a .613-.614 Neck to avoid this problem of having to nech turn each case. You can use a neck reamer, but I'd have a new reamer ground properly myself. If you have more questions feel free to E-mail me.-Rob

Rob, I am getting my chamber cut with this sloppy length chamber .614-.613. So do I still need to fire form??.

And it goes with out saying I can not fire form until I have my finished rifle.

Also would having freebore such as the Weatherby calibres help with the .585?

Regards PC.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 04-27-2002).]

Want me to send you a dummy?

500 grains, I supopose it could not hurt. I will post it back when I have finished with it. Thankyou for the offer it is appreciated.

Regards PC.

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Can someone please post a pic of a fireformed case?

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

PC- I've just deceided to fireform routinely with this case. It's easy and straightforeward to do. With that said, you might be able to size and seat a bullet and fireform on the go with a .614 neck, but there is such a large donut at the shoulder/neck juncture, that you won't be able to crimp. Give it a try and see if the sized and loaded rounds chamber. If I get a chance I'll also try this on my gun which now has the .614 neck also.-Rob

This is how I do it.

1. Lube unformed bertram case.

2. run unformed bertram case into ch4d file trim die.

3. cut off excess case length with hacksaw. File remainder down. Use deburring tool.

4. remove case from file trim die.

5. deburr again.

6. run case through sizing die.

7. bell case mouth

8. prime with F215, put in 130 grains of RE 15, seat a woodleigh or hawk 750 grain bullet.

9. drive to shooting range.

10. Put cartridges in gun and shoot.

The result is a batch of nicely formed cases.

This is all the case processing I have ever had to do. My neck dimension is the same as Rob's so I do not know what explains the difference.

By the way, don't try to crim as part of seating the bullet. Seat all your bullets. Then take the seating plug out of the die and crimp each case individually. Doing otherwise, I ruined some cases. At $4 per case it adds up fast.

Guys- I just got the pictures to work again. here is a Picture of my NYATI and a case sitting on top of it.-Rob

That looks like a no nonsense all business outfit.

I am very impressed with how both 500 grains and Robs .585's look that is how I hope mine will look.

At this stage I am leaning towards a weatherby styled stock as this has served me very well with the .416 Rigby I have.

500 grains, good tip on taking the seater plug out, I have stuffed one case up to date.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 04-30-2002).]

Stock design is a matter of personal preference.

However, very few people shooting big bores select a Weatherby style stock (I am assuming raised monte carlo cheekpiece). Many who do complain that it accentuates recoil rather than reducing it. Most select an English classic style express stock. In my experience, such a stock recoils straight back with little muzzle rise, reducing the felt recoil. I am no stock expert but I think there may be something to this.

That is just one opinion.

One thing I have found to be critical on a really big bore is scope mounting. The Leupold 2.5 X compact will mount in LOW rings. This way you can get a solid cheek weld to the stock and kinda get the gun solidly into your upper chest when shooting. Given the super eye-relief of the 2.5X I've had no problems with recoil even at 750 grs at 2500fps. The McMillan express stock is very nice although not worth a 6 month wait IMHO. -Rob

Another point about stocks is length of pull.

I would suggest a longer length of pull on a big bore than on a rifle of moderate recoil. I went with 14" on my 585 to get that scope away from my head, and it worked.

Yeah I meant the raised monte carlo cheek piece. When I was having the stock for my 416 Rigby built I did not want the weatherby either, but the felllow who built my composite stock Alan Naumann of Corporal Trading reckoned that out of all the stocks he had built in the past 20 years for big bores the weatherby stock had the best results as far as assorbing recoil (in his opinion). I was going to select what he calls the "Jongmans Style" which is what you would class as the straight English, but he was determined that the weatherby style would work. I decided to run with it and my .416 Rigby behaved a lot better with this new weatherby stock than the factory "hogs Back" job.

You blokes have got me thinking though weather I should lean towards the Jongmans this time.

Dan I will definitely be going for the 14" length of pull, that is whats on my .416 as well.

What do you gents think of mercury recoil reducers, do you have them in your .585's and do they work??. Or would some lead shot swirled through the glass mixture work just as well?? One bloke in Melbourne whom I bought my 602 action off has a .530 woodleigh (wildcat of some sort) and he said to cram as many mercury recoil reducers in the stock as possible.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 05-01-2002).]

Frankly I have three mercury recoil reducers sitting on my bench and have never used them. I believe in efficient muzzel breaks, properly designed stocks and low mounted scopes with sufficient eye relief or open sights on the real hard kickers.By the way I don't consider the 585 Nyati to be all that bad. Now an unbraked .50 BMG weighing 16lbs ,thats bad!-Rob

Nice rifle Rob!

Imight actually know something if I keep reading threads like this one....Good info guys. Please keep us up to date guys!

500 could I buy a dummy round from you for my collection?

Mike

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Victory Through Superior Firepower!

I am a TRUE BELIEVER in mercury recoil reducers. The nay-sayers will say that they only add weight, and indeed they do that. But the movement of mercury within its tube distributes the recoil over a slightly longer time interval, converting the recoil from a sharp jab to a slow push. In other words, the mercury takes the bite out.

I like 1 in the forearm and 1 or 2 in the butt. My 585 has them. Some of my other rifles have them.

If they ever leak, it will be hell trying to pick up all of those silver BB's and put them back.

500,

I am definitely going to put three mercury recoil reducers in my .585. I was talking to my stock builder last night and we spoke about putting them all in the butt, he will set them in the glass mixture when he is making the stock. He will then mix a little lead shot through the forend if need be. But I reckon the 26" barrel & then 3" of muzzle break aproximately 1" in diamter will balance out the 3 mercurey recoil reducers pretty well weight wise. I will talk further about getting one in the forend, but he did not sound keen on it.

It will be reinforced with Kevlar and he said he would put extra kevlar around all the crucial areas.

I fired my .416 Rigby a couple of times yesterday and I have decided the weatherby style stock with a 14" length of pull will suit me fine for the .585. I am also going to put the xxx magnum Pachymaer pad on the rear end of it. That looks like it will be a 10 week wait until it arrives.

I really want to set this thing up right so I can use it, I do not want it to be a shot once, dropped once, sold once rifle (who'd be stupid enough to buy it anyway ).

Andrew my mate is trying to cut corners with his .585 to save cash and at this stage is not even prepared to put a proper pad on the rear end. The stock builder said he was a "F*&%# idiot" and that if the stock had to come back to him at a later date he would pay through the nose for it. Do it once properly is what he said and I agree with him. The whole stock will cost me over 1,000 but if I cut corners I would only be saving probably $300.00 but when you consider what you have spent on the whole project cutting corners would not be appropriate.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 05-02-2002).]

If your mate cuts corners on the stock, the stock will break. He could be injured.

He realises he needs to get Kevlar put through it, the corners he will be cutting will be skipping the merc reducers, proper pad and gel coat finish. All this is probaly worth $300-$400 AUS. That money is what would make the difference bewteen comfortable and unbearable.

I agree without the proper Pad he could get injured.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 05-02-2002).]

PC- I hope you and your mate are putting in second barrel recoil lugs! Your stock will crack for sure if you don't! With three mercury recoil reducers in it and a muzzel brake its going to recoil like a .22. Where is that Macho attitude I came to respect in you Australians?-Rob

Yeah we are putting the second barrel recoil lug in.

Rob do you think we should stock it with an 1886 winchester design and keep the original curved steel butt plate, and make the whole thing about 5 1/2 pounds ???

The Australian macho attitude is usually the result of to many VB stubbies, as they say it is courage in a bottle.

I hope your right and it does only recoil like a .22. Do you think the above set up will bring the recoil back to comparable levels with my .416 rigby???. Or is that being a little un-realistic??

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PC- I'm just kidding you. It's not that bad! I've frankly had .30-.30 winchesters that hurt a whole lot more. Look at the Muzzel brake in my picture, it cuts the recoil down enormously. I've used this style on a whole lot of guns and it works great.
by the way I hunted Water-Buff in your NT two years agoand had a absolute blast with you guys. We got tanked up on VB stubbies and then went out to Jack-light the buff. Great fun! I think I shot a jeep!-Rob

In my 460 wby i shoot a 500 grain Hornady round nose soft point at 2700 f/s.When i shoot it into wood then it expand to 24 mm and leave a weight at about 400 grains. And the hornady bullet isnt a premium bullet like the woodleigh. Is the woodleigh 750 grain soft point if you shoot it into smaller game like the swedish brown bear at 2700 f/s from a 577 Tyrannosaur....?

Robgunbuilder,

Have you done any expansion tests with the woodleigh 750 grain soft nose bullet at 2500 f/s...?