The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Re: 50 BeowulfGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Robgunbuilder, They're not quite 400gr but I also have some 385gr bullets by Remington. Have you seen/tried those? BMG | ||
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BMG, What do you think of the 385gr Remingtons? Where did you get yours? Scott | |||
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Not that I believe you actually have either the 50 Beowulf or the S&W, but if you are actually going to try this 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps 'experiment' here is what my experience has to say about WW296. I have tweaked software programs for the WW296 powder, meaning that they have been corelated to real data acquisition. It is important to understand that we are dealing with two seperate models. Model No1 is pressure and velocity, while model two is powder charge weight and pressure. So working the models we obtain these figures: Chamber pressure (maximum average) = 45,000 psi Maximum powder charge = 39 grains Maximum velocity predicted = 1897 fps from 26" barrel Again these are calculated values so start off at least 10% lower. Simply put there ain't no way you are going to get WW296 to launch a 400 gr pill to 2100 fps at safe pressures! Scott | |||
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To answer your question. The 50 Beowulf is a novelty. Ballistic performance falls short of a 12 gauge 1oz sabot load. My Benelli M1 is more accurate shooting either, Foster, Brenneke, or sabot slugs than is my Alexander Arms, 16" barreled, 50 Beowulf carbine. The Benneli is lighter too. My Benneli with group around 3"-4" with Foster and Brenneke style slugs at 100 yards. Sabots are slightly better staying around 2.5" - 3". The 50 Beowulf will group around 4" and has high as 6" at 100 yards. This has been the case with hand loads, and factory loads. Accuracy is ver much on par to my Inland M1 carbine. Another thing to consider is felt recoil. The Beowulf pounds the cheek bone! The high comb of the stock, coupled with the flat top receiver and holosight means you must press you cheek into the stock's comb considerably more than 'normal' rifles of this caliber/recoil level. This leads to head aches after 60 rounds or so, since you are constantly getting slapped in the cheek. Utilization of very high scope mounts, or the tactical open sights (look like A2 sights but attach to the rails) will greatly improve your shooting experience with this little beast. Having said that, the 50 Beowulf comes very close to duplicating the 12 gauge slug's performance (and from a real world perspective surpasses it slightly at longer ranges > 100 yards) in a much more compact package. I would not hunt moose, or bear with a 50 Beowulf, but it should prove to be a descent, if not ideal, back-up in bear country. Overall, it is a novelty like I originally stated, but it is also quite fun! I will be posting the results of some formal load development work in the next few months so stay tuned. Scott | |||
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Urodoji, I have (2) SA80 mags, (1) el cheapo aftermarket 30 round mag, and the 20 round mag that the 50 Beowulf came with. None I repeat none required any modifications to feed the 50 Beowulf. I have used a few milsurp mags that belonged to others at the range without issue either. Have you any FIRST hand experience with feeding issues and the 50 Beowulf, or are these statements of yours based on hearsay? If you do have first hand experience please elaborate. By the way, the capacities of these magazines are: SA80 - 10 rounds (30 rounds 5.56X45 N) El cheapo mag - 11 round (30 rounds 5.56X45N) Alexander Arms mag - 7 rounds (10 rounds of 5.56X45N although the magazine is in fact the same size as the 20 round version) Scott | |||
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From the AA website: .50 Beowulf™ is designed to single stack in existing .223 magazines and requires no special inserts or adapters. The only modificaiton is that the magazine lips may require slight reshaping in certain magazines to ensure feed reliability. My friend had to modify the feed lips of his GI mags to get them to feed reliably as well. I'd rather not have to modify my mags, or mark them and spend time testing to see which ones work, and which don't. That is one of the reasons I selected the .458 SOCOM. The other reason was the excellent selection of bullets. | |||
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I have not shot the 50 Beowulf, have only heard the stories. I have shot the 475 tremor and got a 3" group at 200 yards. Marty designed the 458 and I think that it would preform as well as the 475 I fired. They are just great to shoot and seem very efficent. I really liked the 475 and can only give it excellent marks. Good luck. | |||
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Urodoji, Thanks for the information. I have read the Alexander Arms disclaimer about magazines. To be honest I think that applies to ALL magazines. I had to extensively modify the lips on three inch pattern L1A1 magazines to get them to feed at all, let alone good. Do you know what exactly needed to be done to the feed lips. This would be nice information to have if I ever come across a magazine that needs tweaked. Scott | |||
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Really, consider the .458 SOCOM. Much better selection of bullets (250 to 600 gr.), able to shoot spitzers such as the .300 gr. Barnes Original and X, which the .458 SOCOM was designed for, so it has better down range performance with spitzer bullets. Almost everyone, myself included, is able to get MOA accuracy or better out of the .458 SOCOM, which is something a lot of .50 B. owners have not been able to do. I looked long and hard at getting a .50 B. first, but after all the evidence was in, went with the .458. I talked a lot with my dealer about the .50 B. so he knew I was very interested in one. Then after I got my .458, my dealer has called me three times with customers coming in wanting to sell thier .50 B. uppers they got because of the "expense" of the cartridges. My dealer did not want to trade on them hense his reason for calling me. After contacting all three of the sellers, it finally came out that not only was cost a factor, but they were not living up to accuracy claims. Now, it could be the shooters just could not shoot, nobody is going to admit that, or they found the recoil more than they wanted (it isn't that bad really) but I have heard a lot about the .50 B not quite getting to the MOA mark over at ARF (www.ar15.com). The thing that clinched the .458 for me was the fact that the .50 B. headspaces on the case mouth so you are limited on how much crimp you can put in. The .458 headspaces on the shoulder so you can add as much crimp as you want, or none if you want. Mine shoots best with no crimp at all. Starline has .458 brass readily available and dies are available from Lee. While not listed, Lee does make them but you will have to pay custom price, but the start-up work has been done. I get 7 rounds in GI 20 round mags, and 11 in the 30 round British magazines. Nothing needs to be done to the mags and feed is 100%. | |||
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I too have a.50 Beowulf with a 16 inch barrel and until I tried Lil-Gun powder I have to admit I was completely unimpressed. I can get near MOA with mine using a custom lower with a accu-wedge. The cartridge is interesting. It is actually a rebated .500 S&W but operates at lower pressures. To date my best accuracy has been with 334 gr alexander arms bullets and 37.5 grs of lil-gun. Recoil, What recoil? My 500 S&W will actually outperform the .50 Beowulf as it operates at higher pressures. Accuracy wise, frankly I can do nearly as well with the 500 S&W at 50 yrds rapid fire. The rifle of course is a lil better at 100 yrds. With a 26 inch barrel, my calculations indicate a 400 gr , .50 Beowulf might be able to hit 2100 fps with a 400 gr bullet assuming the gun could handle 45KPSI. I'm going to test this in either .500 or a .510 varient I've designed.-Rob | |||
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Hey Rob, I've got a shilen single shot DGA currently chambered for 222... if i have a 510 barrel and a reamer, we could see if the 500 BW is capable of great accauracy>??!?!1 jeffe | |||
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Quote:  Quote: Quote: Quote: | |||
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jeffeosso, Dah the 50B is a 0.500" bore, not 0.510". The poor accuracy is more a factor of the bullets I believe than the rifle itself. It is fairly accurate to 50 yards, accuracies drops exponentially from there. I will spell it out for you. 1" - 1.5" groups at 50 yards open up to 4"+ groups at 100 yards. Something ain't kosher, eh (and no I ain't referring to myself). Scott | |||
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Here is the 500 S&W load data from Hodgdon's website. You will notice that Lil' gun is documented inclusive of chamber pressure. Quote: The 50 Beowulf easily beats these velocities with it's 6" longer barrel at a lower chamber pressure. Here are the analytically derived velocities and chamber pressure I have for the 334 gr Alexander Arms (Rainier) flat points: Quote: I know that all of these loads are safe to shoot in MY rifle. I have even verified some of the velocities. I will also test 37.9 of Lil' Gun, although I know it will hit close to 1900 fps. Here is the calculated data for the Lil'Gun load: Quote: Scott | |||
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Read my post on that caliber wherein my grandson recently shot a Bison in the lower heart and dead centered the lungs with a soft and a solid at 100 yards, and I tracked that bull more than a mile, plus he stood for 20 minutes after he ran a couple of hundred yards, while we waited for him to fall, then took off... This incident regenerated my failing memory banks, and once again I proved to myself that 2100 FPS is a good minumum for big bullets at the muzzle for really heavy animals...I hope I can remember that this time. The Beowolf, perhaps a nice deer rifle, but I won't ever own another one. If I ever build me a nice light handy big bore, it will be a 10.75x68, that shoots a 350 gr. BarnesX at 2375 FPS and it can be built on a std. Mauser action, even a small ring. | |||
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From what I understand from Marty and Tony, if you are going to be shooting either the .50 B. or the .458 SOCOM in the AR-15 format, you MUST keep pressures to no more than 35,000 PSI (actually, since the .50 B uses the 7.62 x 39 case head, you can run it to 39.4K PSI and not exceed the backthrust value of the .223 round). While the .223 operates at 55K, the larger head of the .50 B., and slightly larger head still of the .458 SOCOM, create more backthrust on the AR-15's bolt face if run at higher pressures than 35K (39K for the .50 B.). Sure, you can make either round do a lot better in a bolt gun or single shot by running the pressure up to 55K, and by switching from LP primers to LR primers and recutting the primer pocket to handle the increased pressure, but in the AR-15 format, you are itching to hurt yourself if you run them over 35K. (Marty, if you are on here and I have misunderstood your past posts here or at AR15.com, please do not hesitate to correct me). It is akin to the same principle of the .223 in a Contender and then the .45-70 in the Contender. You just cannot run a bigger sized case head at the same pressures as you can a small sized case head without beefing up the action to handle the larger amount of backtrust on the lugs and bolt face. Keeping the pressures at sane limits in the AR-15 and both the .50 B and .458 SOCOM come in a hair short of hot loaded .45-70 rounds in modern firearms. I run a 300 gr. X bullet out of my Contender, 15", at 1890 fps and have been doing so for many years with a maximum load of H322. The fastest I have gotten the 300 gr. X out of my .458 SOCOM is 1790 fps, with a maximum load, and pressure, of H110. Not a really big game round, but it will be murder on deer sized animals, as I have taken a ton of deer with the .45-70/300 X from 90 to 200 pounds and it drops them like Thor's hammer. But like Atkinson said, I don't think either round would be suitable for really large heavy boned game. Elk, probably OK, moose, probably OK, but bison or big bears, not this kid. | |||
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BigBore, I cannot comment on the 458 SOCOM, but DO NOT USE Large Rifle Primers in a 50 Beowulf! < !--color--> Here is the reason why. The 50 Beowulf is a lengthened and rebated rimmed 50 AE. The 50 AE cartridge design utilizes a Large Pistol Magnum Primer. The Large Rifle Primer and the Large Pistol Magnum primer are both the same OD; however, the primer heights are different: Large Rifle Primer Height - 0.125" < !--color--> Large Pistol Magnum Primer Height 0.115" < !--color--> The primer pocket depth of the 50 Beowulf is 0.120" < !--color--> versus the primer pocket depth of a large rifle case (30-06 for instance) of 0.130". So if you press a Large rifle primer into the 50 Beowulf case the primer will protrude out 0.005", and this could lead to slam fires from an unlocked breach ! THIS IS A VERY BAD BAD THING! So NEVER NEVER NEVER use a large rifle primer in a 50 Beowulf! Always use a Large Pistol Magnum Primer! < !--color--> The failure mode of an over-pressure load in a 50 Beowulf is case head expansion in the web (primer pocket is still nice and tight). I have fired off a few during load development work, ACCIDENTALLY. The calculated pressures were around 51,000 psi. You will NOT blow primers in a 50 Beowulf! The web is only about 0.85" thick in the 50 Beowulf and this limits it's pressure levels. If the web was the more standard 0.110" thick you would be able to load it up to the low to mid 50Ks without incidence. Of course you would end up having to retune the gas system more than likely, if you reiforced the brass. Scott | |||
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Yes, I know. That was why I said if you were to run the .50 B at 55K and if you used LR primers, you would need to recut the primer pocket (to make it deeper). While pistol primers likely will hold to 50K, I personally would be uncomfortable running them that hot. For loads that hot, I would want rifle primers with their thicker cups. All that was academic anyway as the .50 B. or the .458 S. should not be run that hot anyway. The AR-15 bolt face and locking lugs were not designed to handle that kind of back force pressures on a routine basis, that is why the .50 B. and .458 S. must be run at lower pressures than the .223 or risk damage to the rifle and shooter. While the gas tube would need to be reworked to make it function, that would do nothing to lessen the forces on the locking lugs and bolt face, because by the time the rifle is unlocking, the peak force on the lugs and bolt face have dropped way off. In a bolt action, both could be run up to 55 K so long as the primers would hold. That was what I was referring to about recutting the primer pockets for LR primers. Not that it would work or that even you should do that, but 55K is a lot of pressure for the thin cups of pistol primers to hold. While I am sure the pistol primers would hold it as evident by using pistol primers in the .475 Linebaugh which runs 51K, I would prefer rifle primers in rounds this hot. Recall, Starline re-did their .500 S&W brass so that now it can run rifle primers instead of pistol primers. | |||
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BigBore, I apologize. I stopped reading at the LR replacing LP! I did not read the entire sentence, my bad. You clearly stated that the primer pocket needed to be recut (although I am not sure what the rest of the sentence means) Quote: Anyway, my last post clearly states the whys and wherefores. I wasn't trying to start a fight. BTW, I completely agree with your last post. I load my 50 Beowulf with 40 gr of IMR 4227 and a 334 Rainier 'FMJ', which I consider a MAX load for the AR platform. In truth there isn't too much more than can be obtain with a bolt or single shot action though, since the 50B brass is WEAK. Scott | |||
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Just adding my $0.02 ... ScottS - you are correct, do not use LRP in either the 50B or 458S. They have the same parent case (albeit different final dimensions) and will not take the LRP. But BigBore even mentioned this when he stated "recut the primer pocket". As to loads, we have seen the 300 gr JHP driven to 2200 fps from the 16" without ill effect to shooter or rifle. I cannot speak to the pressure of these loads, as we were not able to test them. However, these rifles continue to see service. One dapper reloader has been pushing the envelope and his loads in the computer calculate to be 135% fill (!!) and 65,000 psi. I did get a chance to inspect that rifle after firing numerous of these loads and it is still is good working condition. Best powders are Lil Gun, H108 (a small batch was made by Hogdon) and I like Norma 200. Win 296 also works. For the heavier bullets, VV N110 is turning in amazing results, and Re7 is my powder of choice for the heavy subsonic loads (500 & 600 gr). Case failure - have not seen any on the 458 SOCOM, other than severe bolt imprint in the rim. A TRUE overpressure load on the 50B will show a VERY different failure - the case will collapse at the web, essentially "harmonica" over the rim. This is why we chose the slightly larger rim, plus the easy of conversion of bolt guns (we use the .308 rim). But to achieve this failure requires unsavory high loads, the kind where you double charge a load or else grab a pistol powder instead of the fast rifle powder ... BigBore, you were pretty well on the mark regarding bolt thrust, indeed, to keep the lugs attached to the bolt (with the larger rims) we have to keep the pressure down. Simple physics really. Ray - Never meant for anyone to shoot bison at 100 yards with our .458 SOCOM, it was more intended for two-legged varmint when "our boys" go in harms way ... But on deer it is giving some respectable results, and here in TX the wild hogs are not too thrilled with these big bore ARs ... That said, both are fun to shoot, should be capable of MOA (or even subMOA, the 458 SOCOM has shot a 0.50" 3-shot group at 100 yards in the hands of Peter Pi, Jr.) and can take care of your "up close and personal" issues when needed. Now, for bigger game, try the .500 Phantom, 525 grain Barnes solid at 2,000 fps ..... | |||
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Big Bore- My understanding of the locking lug limitations of the AR-15 are exactly the same as yours. I would not push the .50 Beowulf to beyond 35KPSI period. MartyTW and I agreed on that quite awhile ago. A very interesting idea however is to take a Marlin 1895 and put on a long throat, 26 inch .500 S&W or .510 S&W varient. This should be easily able to run to 45 KPSI or about the same bolt thrust as the 444 marlin and if that is correct, my calculations say a 400 gr bullet with WW 296 should easily hit 2100 fps. Using Lil-Gun I might be able to do even better considering that the long throat provides a lil more powder capacity than the std 500 S&W case. I could in fact lower the pressures more by using a three groove barrel as per the 600 OK. Now a 400 gr .50 caliber bullet at 2100 fps is 4000 ft-lbs or energy and I would be unafraid to hunt even a Cape Buffalo with that in lever gun assuming I could handle the recoil! I believe I know exactly how to do that also. I'm giving some very serious consideration to this concept as I'm reasonably fond of the 500 S&W. I recently made a new cylinder for that gun to hold some long throat bullets and I can now easily hit 1975 with 325 gr speers with very decent controlability. -Rob | |||
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Quote: What??? | |||
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50Beowulf brass is made by Starline and their 334gr bullets are made by Rainier. The plating is actually thicker than I suspected, in that is is ~ 0.02" thick. Midwayusa stocks them at ~ $65 per 500. Scott | |||
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Quote: So is the .458 SOCOM brass. | |||
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BMG- I'm sure your right. I got about 100 of the AA bullets with my .50 Beowulf upper and used them in the .500 S&W. What I'm after is 400 gr bullets, Bridger is making some for me that will go 2100 with reasonable pressures that a lever gun can be expected of living through. I'm working on the deails now while I'm waiting for my 12 GAFH barrel to arrive. The .500 bullet diameter is real California friendly, but .510 offers more flexibility. Urodoji- I'd like to suggest you put the TROLL on "ignore". You won't believe how nice it is not to have to read it's worthless posts. It posts and it posts, but gets no replies! Kinda like talking to a wall I imagine. Looks like amost everybody is "ignoreing it" You will just love the results!-Rob | |||
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I'm waiting on the sherriff's office at home to finish playing with my .458 upper...In the mean time, I'm pondering getting one of the DPMS .308 rifles to convert to .404 Rhinosaurus... | |||
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