Hi all, I should take delivery of this in about a week.



Hopkins and Allen 12ga made around 1917

NEAT!!

I'm going to go with the Shaw 1:28 twist barrel. This action is made for a takedown barrel, So I'm hopeing that I'll be able to thread the reciever. someone mentioned being able to use a 3/4" strait reamer for the chamber. was this just a thought or would it work? Do they come with a pilot to keep it centered? I'd better get started on some 50 BMG brass, putting rims on them. I'll make a new 12ga mold and start with 750 gn slugs then go to the 1000 gn ones next. I don't want to be able to vaporize anything I shoot, so I think it will be just a 12ga Heavy or 730 Collarbone Express. It doesn't have a stock as you can see, so I'm going to have to try and make one. I'll have to stop by a shop tomorrow in town that has some blanks and stuff. Where do I want the comb to be in relation to the sights? Should I just look for a straight grained walnut? Which variety has the denser grain? I'm sure I'll have lots more questions as I go.

I emailed shaw to see if they could cut the chamber.

Lar-Rob is having John make 12GA brass in future.John has
atomated machine t make them fast.Rob had
wanted to cut chamber straight with tool at
.800 diameter but we found that the brass case when done with bullet in it, had a slight taper.So he is going to have reamer done with regular pilot, etc.Might be best to share reamer.BMG base is same as 12 GA, at .800. And neck
on 12GA FH is .764 with a .729 bullet in it on the few I built.Email if you need anymore info.Ed.

I'd be up for shareing a reamer. It would be cheaper than haveing 3 made. I don't know how strong this action will be, but I don't intend to push it very hard. 600 or 700NE levels should be enough
email sent

If its anything like a Hopkins and Allen wheel gun, it wont be worth beans. I have never seen a H&A action of that kind.
At least you can study the action if it doesnt work out.

Putting anything like a heavy load infront of an H&A shotgun action is a good way to get killed. They are not known to be strong actions and even folks that shoot only black powder .45-70s are leary of using these actions.

Makes a nice paperweight on your desk. Not much else. Perhaps it will make for a good set of dentures if you load it hot and it comes apart.

Be careful.

Brent

Lar-What size is barrel thread and the
length of the threads ?And you could have it checked for
hardness, and if soft, have it heat treated get
modern strength.Ed.

Ed, it was made for a take down barrel so no threads. I'm hopeing that I'll be able to thread the action. I can do a rockwell test in the Engineering lab. I could have it hardened at a spring shop in town unless someone knows of a place that specifically does gun parts? In one of my books on makeing barrels it has a short section on the steels used around the turn of the century, the composition on most of them is real close to 4130. I will proof test it in a fixture of course then only shoot lower pressure loads afterwards. I'm not looking for 60ksi, I think that 20k should be more than pleanty.
Shaw will only ream there barrels to 3", Pacific tool will make a reamer for just over $150, 4-6 weeks.
From the pictures I think it looks pleanty strong. The only thing might be the thickness of the reciever around the barrel shank and the length of it.

The nay sayers said that my Belgian 12ga wouldn't hold a 470NE, but it's shooting pretty good so far.

I'll try it and proof it and pull the trigger string from behind the truck. Then if it comes apart, I'll use it for a paper weight.

Lar45, sounds like a neat project you have going here.

Not trying to hi-jack your thread, but I know of a similar gun that might be for sale. Clyde Moore is a full-time gunsmith at D&D Gunsmiths, Troy Michigan, (248 583 1512). He built on a Martini action a 12 gauge with a rifled barrel, 2 3/4 inch chamber. I've seen and handled it and found it trim and quite interesting. Nice wood, nice blue job, etc. He's moving on to other projects and indicated he would part with this.

I'd get a sample tested and see exactly what kind of steel you have and then talk to Dave Kiff at PTG about how to harden it and then temper it properly. I have some people here who can also do a good job assuming the metal is appropriate. You will have fun figuring out how to hold that thing on a faceplate to thread it. I think I'd just pot the whole thing in cerrosafe,then bolt it to a faceplate and start adding weights. I'll bet centering that hole will take you awhile. I've also tapped stuff like that under power on my hardinge. Scary stuff. You can make a 12Ga FH chamber using a carbide boring bar if you want to and don't bother with a reamer.-Rob

Matt-That is a Greener-Martini shotgun.Rob and I each got an action and checked them out.Not long enough for full length 12Ga FH, but would work for 3 in shell.I am sometime in future going to build a longer heavier version for 12GA FH.

Glenn-- It looks big enough if it is hard and strong. Ed.

Rob, I wouldn't have a clue where to send it to get the steel ananlyzed. Do you know of a place? What rockwell should I be looking for as far as hardness? At the Engineering lab we have a small furness that I could use on the weekend I'm sure. We use if for doing hardness and impact tests in the materials lab. Without looking anything up, I'm thinking, bring it to Austenite, then oil quench, then temper to bring the hardness down? How big of a piece would they need for analysis? Maybe take a small sliver off of the inside of the tang? To do an electrograph anyalisis, doesn't it need to be powdered? We aren't a big enough school to have one of those.



My Smithy wiggles too much for good boreing, so I'll probably have to go the reamer route. I am trying to put some anti-backlash stuff on it though.

I also have grave concearns about the strength of the action. I may be made of iron, or crappy steel. If that is so, no amount of heat treating will help. Also nottice that the breech block is not well supported above the center line of the base of the cartridge, this is baaaad.

The "bolt" thrust against the breech block is a function of that area of the case head as well as the pressure. realatively large area of the 12 ga case head makes it important to keep pressures way down to keep simmilar thrust as something like a 45-70. Thrust is what breaks things. We have already heard about this action in 45-70 being marginal. I would guess anything over mild black powder shotshells would subject it to stresses above balck powder 45-70. I would need to do the math but, it will be close.

Personally I would not fire such a rig as you propose. If the thing is iron it may let go by shattering. That would drive the breech block through your face. It may not let go with a proof test. Could take a while for cracks to start then it could do so without warning. Just because it is a falling block it does not make it strong. I think Frank DeHaas wrote about this one in his single shot action book or books. You might want to read up before you spend time and money on it.

Be carefull,

Guys, it's not just the steel and it's hardness. You can harden it to Rockwell 10 million and it still might shatter. I'm no pro - don't mean to sound like I am. But I do know this action is unsuitable for almost anything, including the 12 bore shot loads it was made for originally. I shoot in the singleshot bpcr world where actions run a small fortune (Highwalls, Sharps, Rem Rollers even, etc). And these H&A actions are deemed completely unacceptable for a load of 70 grs of black powder and a 500 gr bullet (as in 500 grs at 1100 fps). You can work from that if you wish, but this is no big bore wonder, no matter what size barrel you hang on it.

As a clue that this is not strong, look at how the breech block is supported. What is there on the side of the breech block opposite the primer?

Your face.

There are no supporting receiver rails as there are in a highwall.

Next stop, right nostril.

Just my opinion, and your mileage may differ, but then again, maybe it won't.

Brent

Here is a top pic of the action.