Guys:

I am going to pick up some 570 BBW#13 solids to try in my 500 NE. I am using 94 grains of Reloder 15 with my 570 grain Woodleighs. I looked at the new exploration thread for the 500 and it suggests a load of 97 grains of Reloder 15 with the BBW#13s. The BBW#13s I have tried so far seem to shoot at less pressure than ordinary cup and core bullets. Would that 97 grain load be a good place to start?

Dave, per my PM to you, I was using 93.5 grains of RL-15 as the MAX load with the CEB bullets. I also used that same load with the TSX and Barnes Banded Solids before switching.

That 93.5 gr load is the MAX listed in the Barnes Reloading Manual #4. Do you, Michael, or Sam have a manual reference anywhere that advocates a heavier charge of RL-15 than 93.5 grs? I always like to have a manufacturers manual reference somewhere for my loads. I usually go with the minimum MAX when there is a discrepancy.

Also, I was getting 2150 fps in a 24" barrel (Merkel) with that 93.5 gr load. So with the target velocity being achieved as well as the reference to the manual, I would be careful about going above that MAX. In any event, if Sam and Michael have 97 grains listed as MAX, please do not START there. Work up to it.

I think Todd has said what Michael and Sam would say: Nope, 97 grains is not where you start.
90 grains would be a better start, and stop when you get the desired results,
mainly looking to shoot parallel to infinity,
if the rifle is properly regulated.

Your first loads should be shooting high and wide, then converge and lower, approaching the bullseye, with each increase in powder charge,
1-grain step initially, 0.5-grain step for fine tuning around the regulation point.

When the barrels cross and shoot low, you have gone too far. The charge is too great.
Velocity is a secondary consideration.
If it shoots to proper regulation at 2050 fps, side-by-side holes parallel to infinity, so be it.
But I might also be happy enough if it put all the bullets into one hole at 50 yards (crossing) at a max velocity of 2150 fps,
both barrels dead-on zero.
Then the entrance wound holes at 100 yards would be a mirror image of the muzzle holes.
Close enough,
I would just get antsy if velocity exceeded 2150 fps.

Todd:

I have the Barnes Manual and it does indeed suggest that 93.5 load of Reloader 15 as the max with the 570 grain banded solid. I did note that on the 500 NE, a new exploration thread that there was a 97 grain load of RL 15 that Sam had worked up with his Sabatti that was running at 2030 fps. I was wondering if you had to use more powder with the BBW#13s

Dave, I never got 2150 fps with the TSX or Barnes Banded Solid with that 93.5 gr MAX. More like 2050 or so. But I got about 100fps more with the CEB, using the same powder load.

The Barnes bullets never got closer than about 3" at 50 yards before hitting the max load. However, with the extra 100 fps velocity I got with the CEBs, the bullets just barely touched each other at 50 yards.

My experience was exactly as RIP described above. And as RIP said, what you are really looking for is to achieve regulation, or MAX load whichever occurs first, whatever velocity that occurs at. If you achieve regulation at a velocity that is lower than you deem acceptable, your only real option is to try a different load / bullet combo. Likewise, if you hit the MAX before achieving regulation, you'll have to try a different combo as well.

Dave

Both Todd, and RIP have given you good and proper answers as to where to start, and there is not one thing I can add to that. Excellent advice, heed it.

BBW#13s do in fact give less pressures than most any other bullet, simply because of the bands and being brass. This is true regardless of caliber, cartridge or rifle, as a rule of thumb. I have yet to see it otherwise, but anomalies occur. Hence, Rule of Thumb.

Another thing to ALWAYS keep in mind, even though we ran pressures on all the 500 Loads, and all we did that would come under 45000 PSI in SAM's Sabatti, was absolutely safe in Sam's Sabatti! Now, ALL RIFLES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL! ALL KEGS OF POWDER ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL (even with the same lot #)! All Primers are not created equal as well. Your keg of RL15 is very likely to be somewhat different that what we used here. Sam and I found that out, even with IMR 4350. My keg of IMR 4350 was a bit hotter than his! I have found these variations in many different powders over the years, and I used to use a LOT OF RL 15. I have found variations in RL 15 as well.

These are the reasons that one rarely steps out starting loads at the Max Level Suggested.

Do as I say, not as I may do at times! LOL...................

quote:

Do you, Michael, or Sam have a manual reference anywhere that advocates a heavier charge of RL-15 than 93.5 grs?

Todd, Yes, it is in the load data Sam and I did for the 500 Nitro. We ran 97/RL 15 with the 570 for 2038 fps and a touch over 40000 PSI. Again, Sam's Sabatti, My RL 15. Perfectly safe and good in this rifle, with this keg of RL 15.

quote:

if Sam and Michael have 97 grains listed as MAX, please do not START there. Work up to it.

100% Spot on!

RIP and Todd are correct, first and foremost you must look for regulation, under max pressures. Nothing you shoot with a 500 Nitro is going to pay much attention to 50 or even 100 fps. If you regulate under your targeted velocity, no big deal, you must stay with that and rock on! Let the BBW#13 do the rest, and it will perform at less velocity, especially the solids. With a BBW#13 more velocity is more performance, but you are not coming up short at all with less velocity.

Todd, I have the data on the B&M site located under "Additional Research" and then a page to itself. Downloadable .pdf documents.

Direct link to data here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...a-Barrel-Strain.html



Sam? He is off in BC hunting some sort of deer thing? I forget exactly what he is doing, and I think it's even with a rat gun, which might have something to do with my memory deficiency? Hence, since it was not interesting, I don't remember exactly what he is doing? But, I could be wrong too, I just don't recall the details.

Michael

Thanks Michael. As stated, I usually like to see a bullet or powder manufacturers' manual data and I usually consider the lower MAX as limiting. Of course, I have exceeded that on occasion while working to the higher listed MAX, but do so under extreme caution. I had that exact thing happen while trying to get that 9.3 to regulate the CEBs with the scope mounted.

But the fact that you and Sam were working with pressure testing equipment would certainly make me comfortable using your data. And I have used your data on more than one occasion. In fact, I'm using Sam's load for the 577NE currently and it happens to regulate perfectly in that VC.

Your points ring true on several fronts. For example, 97grs of RL-15 produces 2050 or so in Sam's 500NE Sabatti where the 93.5grs of RL-15 in my Merkel produced 2150fps. Different guns, different powder lots. Probably different brass as well. I felt the 93.5 was "hot" in the Merkel. Damn good thing I didn't just jump in at 97!!

Got the 9.3 sorted. Thanks again for the 3 petal bullets. Got them, the 6 petal Non-Cons, and solids all working great. Colored the bullets and base of the brass red for the 3 petal loads. Strange about not being able to stabilize with the tips though. Everything is working great right now. Guns and loads and bullets. Makes me realize how much the guys that shoot factory ammo or even camp guns miss out on when preparing for Safari. Hell, I enjoy the preparation almost as much as the trip itself.

quote:

Your points ring true on several fronts. For example, 97grs of RL-15 produces 2050 or so in Sam's 500NE Sabatti where the 93.5grs of RL-15 in my Merkel produced 2150fps. Different guns, different powder lots. Probably different brass as well. I felt the 93.5 was "hot" in the Merkel. Damn good thing I didn't just jump in at 97!!

Exactly!

Here is the issue with doing 500 Nitro Load Data! What Rifle? Sabatti? VC? Merkel? and the list goes on. All rifles--Not created equal.

What might be just dandy in Sam's Sabatti, may have very well been NOT GOOD in that Merkel! Which it absolutely sounds like that might be the case. I was talking with someone recently about a load in 470 Nitro, it was running 100 fps faster than the same loads Sam and I were using here in his! It seemed to be fine, he did not have a problem, sticky cases, nothing. I suggested he drop a couple of grains and see how that did.

Example doing my various B&M data, its all bolt guns, and barrels from the same place, all Win M70 actions. So variance from one rifle to the next is minimal. In almost every case, every rifle is very close to being the same. However, change that keg of powder, one better check it out, couple of grains less and work back up when working from a NEW KEG. I buy in the 5-8 lb kegs of powder because of this.

Another Example lets look at--Marlin Guide Guns. Do load data for a 45/70 in a Marlin, then about 95% of the time that data is going to be good for the next Marlin. Just occasionally you will get one gun a bit stronger than another, but that is the exception, not the rule. I have load data for my 50 B&M Alaskan, done on one Marlin Rifle--it just so happens that was a sensitive Marlin, and it ran well at 45000 PSI--but get to 47000 PSI it was not happy. So any load one has that ran less than 45000 PSI was good in every other gun I know of and ones I have.

But doing load data on just 500 Nitro is not quite enough, and owners of 500 Nitros must be aware that there are a lot of different models, makes, and guns in that caliber. Manuals like Barnes are going to be on the safe side, MOST of the time, but not always 100%--there are good reasons to understand and work within the parameters, START LOW--Work up.


Dave, By the way, received the 9.3 bullets, I will get them this week.

Michael

Thanks guys. This has really helped....Now I know where to start...